Top 1-14 US News Predictions

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catharsis
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby catharsis » Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:20 am

when do the 2010 rankings come out??

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Vincent Vega
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Vincent Vega » Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:38 am

April.

LSlobbyist
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby LSlobbyist » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:02 am

From what I can tell, the two quickest ways to provoke the TLS community are to:

1) Try to predict the future USN rankings.

2) Say anything about UVa.

amg0996
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby amg0996 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:13 am

Y
h/s
columbia
C/nyu
b
m
p
UVA
n
Texas/gt
cornell

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bees
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby bees » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:17 am

Y
H
S
C
CN
MVPB
DN
CG

UCLA has to stay out simply because it doesn't have a single letter that works well for it. Maybe La...but I don't like that.

BuckNuts
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby BuckNuts » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:25 am

Quite certain m*ch*g*n's fast and furious demise in the college football world is having a spillover effect onto its USNWR ranking. I'd say T30 at best this year :)

miamiman
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby miamiman » Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:56 am

Few clarifying questions:

1. How is everyone so convinced that chicago will be tied with nyu?

2. Why is michigan falling and uva climbing?

3. Why does berkeley fall in virtually all of these?

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Rand M.
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Rand M. » Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:16 am

miamiman wrote:Few clarifying questions:

1. How is everyone so convinced that chicago will be tied with nyu?

2. Why is michigan falling and uva climbing?

3. Why does berkeley fall in virtually all of these?


1. I think that everyone just recognizes that that, at least, is its deserved place.

2. This may have something to due with the UVa slant of the members of this site coupled with the recent decline in the perception of Michigan in all areas (Prestige, state's economy, etc.). I saw Ken explain his thoughts on the decline of Michigan in another thread.

3. This one has more to do with Chicago moving up. I think that any move down that is predicted is magnified by the fact that most people think it is well out of its league being tied with Chicago. It is clearly more of a peer school to MVP than to CCN.

fortissimo
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby fortissimo » Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:21 am

-
Last edited by fortissimo on Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby D. H2Oman » Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:30 am

miamiman wrote:Few clarifying questions:

1. How is everyone so convinced that chicago will be tied with nyu?

2. Why is michigan falling and uva climbing?

3. Why does berkeley fall in virtually all of these?



(1-3) Everyone is just pulling these things out of their ass. (Except for me, I used an advanced mathematical model based on 1000's of interviews with hiring committees from top law firms)

miamiman
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby miamiman » Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:26 am

Oh, ok then. Just glad to establish that all of these purported insights are actually arbitrary opinions with little to no predictive value.

With that said, as a future uofc student, I do love all of the chicago love but I have no idea why this board gives the school so much street cred. I genuinely view ucb and uofc as equals - but if berk's oci was as miserable a bloodbath as some allege, perhaps chicago is the stronger school ite.

Thanks

Renzo
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Renzo » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:08 am

Rand M. wrote:
miamiman wrote:Few clarifying questions:

1. How is everyone so convinced that chicago will be tied with nyu?

2. Why is michigan falling and uva climbing?

3. Why does berkeley fall in virtually all of these?


1. I think that everyone just recognizes that that, at least, is its deserved place.

Psssh. NYU brought in 3 new IP profs, hired away international law profs from CLS and HLS, and got Epstein to move his official job to NYU from Chicago (even though he'll still be splitting his time both places). They also started a clerkship office to boost those numbers. Chicago might have the more prestigious name, but it's doing nothing to play the rankings game.

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Rand M.
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Rand M. » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:10 am

miamiman wrote:Oh, ok then. Just glad to establish that all of these purported insights are actually arbitrary opinions with little to no predictive value.

With that said, as a future uofc student, I do love all of the chicago love but I have no idea why this board gives the school so much street cred. I genuinely view ucb and uofc as equals - but if berk's oci was as miserable a bloodbath as some allege, perhaps chicago is the stronger school ite.

Thanks


Chicago is the stronger school in every economy. Most people will tell you that the only way that Chicago suffers in US News is the issue of per capita expenditures. NYU for instance spends way more money, but does not best Chicago in most other respects. For employment prospects Chicago seems to have more in common with Columbia than Berkeley. Outside of HYS I don't think there are any other schools that are "clearly" better than Chicago. Chicago's no. 6 ranking belies its true quality, which can be seen in its reputation scores, elite firm placement, clerkship placement and faculty ratings. Plus, the small size of Chicago gives it a distinct advantage ITE since firms can't afford to cut back on their Chicago grads nearly as much.

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Rand M.
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Rand M. » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:14 am

Renzo wrote:
Rand M. wrote:
miamiman wrote:Few clarifying questions:

1. How is everyone so convinced that chicago will be tied with nyu?

2. Why is michigan falling and uva climbing?

3. Why does berkeley fall in virtually all of these?


1. I think that everyone just recognizes that that, at least, is its deserved place.

Psssh. NYU brought in 3 new IP profs, hired away international law profs from CLS and HLS, and got Epstein to move his official job to NYU from Chicago (even though he'll still be splitting his time both places). They also started a clerkship office to boost those numbers. Chicago might have the more prestigious name, but it's doing nothing to play the rankings game.


So you think NYU is clearly superior to Chicago? My only point was that it is at least as good. I was pushing it any farther than that, just saying that any argument has to start with them as at least equal. "Gaming" the rankings doesn't really make an institution better does it?

Renzo
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Renzo » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:21 am

Chicago is the stronger school in every economy. Most people will tell you that the only way that Chicago suffers in US News is the issue of per capita expenditures. NYU for instance spends way more money, but does not best Chicago in most other respects. For employment prospects Chicago seems to have more in common with Columbia than Berkeley. Outside of HYS I don't think there are any other schools that are "clearly" better than Chicago. Chicago's no. 6 ranking belies its true quality, which can be seen in its reputation scores, elite firm placement, clerkship placement and faculty ratings.

Oh, so you have an anecdote and a personal opinion? You must be right, then.

Don't get me wrong, UChi is a great school, and I am the first to argue that the USNWR lists have far less to do with reality than people think. But the discussion was about who is moving up and down the USNWR ranking, not about what schools are your favorite.

Rand M. wrote:Plus, the small size of Chicago gives it a distinct advantage ITE since firms can't afford to cut back on their Chicago grads nearly as much.
This is pretty silly. It assumes firms have some quota/ratio that they have to fill from each school. I generally agree that small classes are a hiring advantage, but not because of your imaginary quota system, but because each individual has more impact on the school's placement numbers and thus gets more attention from OCS.

miamiman
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby miamiman » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:22 am

So the generally held perception is chicago > nyu?

Perception as measured by:

1. Firm placement ITE
2. Student quality
3. Faculty quality

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Rand M.
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Rand M. » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:26 am

miamiman wrote:So the generally held perception is chicago > nyu?

Perception as measured by:

1. Firm placement ITE
2. Student quality
3. Faculty quality


All but number 2, with number 3 unclear in the future b/c of reshuffling. For now Chicago wins on 1 and 3. NYU has a slight GPA advantage.

sandy10
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby sandy10 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:28 am

Renzo wrote:
Chicago is the stronger school in every economy. Most people will tell you that the only way that Chicago suffers in US News is the issue of per capita expenditures. NYU for instance spends way more money, but does not best Chicago in most other respects. For employment prospects Chicago seems to have more in common with Columbia than Berkeley. Outside of HYS I don't think there are any other schools that are "clearly" better than Chicago. Chicago's no. 6 ranking belies its true quality, which can be seen in its reputation scores, elite firm placement, clerkship placement and faculty ratings.

Oh, so you have an anecdote and a personal opinion? You must be right, then.

Don't get me wrong, UChi is a great school, and I am the first to argue that the USNWR lists have far less to do with reality than people think. But the discussion was about who is moving up and down the USNWR ranking, not about what schools are your favorite.

Rand M. wrote:Plus, the small size of Chicago gives it a distinct advantage ITE since firms can't afford to cut back on their Chicago grads nearly as much.
This is pretty silly. It assumes firms have some quota/ratio that they have to fill from each school. I generally agree that small classes are a hiring advantage, but not because of your imaginary quota system, but because each individual has more impact on the school's placement numbers and thus gets more attention from OCS.


That's strange--- all of the comments he made about Chicago's placement as compared to NYU's/Boalt's placement are facts (rep scores, firm placement, clerkships).

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Rand M.
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Rand M. » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:33 am

sandy10 wrote:
Renzo wrote:
Chicago is the stronger school in every economy. Most people will tell you that the only way that Chicago suffers in US News is the issue of per capita expenditures. NYU for instance spends way more money, but does not best Chicago in most other respects. For employment prospects Chicago seems to have more in common with Columbia than Berkeley. Outside of HYS I don't think there are any other schools that are "clearly" better than Chicago. Chicago's no. 6 ranking belies its true quality, which can be seen in its reputation scores, elite firm placement, clerkship placement and faculty ratings.

Oh, so you have an anecdote and a personal opinion? You must be right, then.

Don't get me wrong, UChi is a great school, and I am the first to argue that the USNWR lists have far less to do with reality than people think. But the discussion was about who is moving up and down the USNWR ranking, not about what schools are your favorite.

Rand M. wrote:Plus, the small size of Chicago gives it a distinct advantage ITE since firms can't afford to cut back on their Chicago grads nearly as much.
This is pretty silly. It assumes firms have some quota/ratio that they have to fill from each school. I generally agree that small classes are a hiring advantage, but not because of your imaginary quota system, but because each individual has more impact on the school's placement numbers and thus gets more attention from OCS.


That's strange--- all of the comments he made about Chicago's placement as compared to NYU's placement are facts (rep scores, firm placement, clerkships).


Thank you. I really don't think I said anything all that outlandish. Renzo says that I was off-topic, but the post that I was addressing posed the question of why people perceive Chicago>Berkeley. I was trying to show that there is a clear difference between those two; and I am pretty sure I did.

Renzo
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Renzo » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:41 am

Rand M. wrote:
miamiman wrote:So the generally held perception is chicago > nyu?

Perception as measured by:

1. Firm placement ITE
2. Student quality
3. Faculty quality


All but number 2, with number 3 unclear in the future b/c of reshuffling. For now Chicago wins on 1 and 3. NYU has a slight GPA advantage.

I think you have to parse it a little finer.

Faculty quality is intangible, so there isn't really a way to measure it. I think you could look at individual fields and find one school stronger than the other, but there's no way to compare across the board in any meaningful way.

UChi puts out more academics, and more prestigious clerks. If you want to teach, it's a better choice.

As for biglaw, if you didn't care where you worked, UC would be a better choice. They place a higher percentage of grads in big firms (some of this is self-selection, but that doesn't matter). But, if you had a preference between Chicago and NYC as a permanent home, you'd be a fool not to go to school there.

Even in student quality, it's hard to argue. NYU has slightly better numbers, even with the bigger class. But UC tends to attract very academically-oriented students, so it depends how you define "student quality"

Bottom line is that if you are depending on a list or ranking to help you decide between these schools, you are being foolish. Both are good, but there are differences, so you should pick which you like. As for the list, NYU will continue to come out on top for a few years.

Renzo
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Renzo » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:47 am

Rand M. wrote:
sandy10 wrote:
That's strange--- all of the comments he made about Chicago's placement as compared to NYU's placement are facts (rep scores, firm placement, clerkships).


Thank you. I really don't think I said anything all that outlandish. Renzo says that I was off-topic, but the post that I was addressing posed the question of why people perceive Chicago>Berkeley. I was trying to show that there is a clear difference between those two; and I am pretty sure I did.

Fair enough. I re-read your post, and there is still a fair amount of personal opinion, but you do make some reasonable and on-topic points about the failing of the USNWR system of rankings.

scionb4
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby scionb4 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:56 am

Top 5:

1. Cooley
2. Valparaiso
3. Phoenix School of Law
4. California Online Law School
5. Yale/Harvard/Stanford

xcountryjunkie
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby xcountryjunkie » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:59 am

I know it won't take effect in time for this April's rankings, but does anyone think Cornell's 52% increase in apps will cause its medians to rise by enough to jump a few slots?

canceled02062010
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby canceled02062010 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:01 pm

..
Last edited by canceled02062010 on Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

showNprove
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby showNprove » Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:11 pm

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Last edited by showNprove on Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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