Top 1-14 US News Predictions

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badfish
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby badfish » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:53 pm

sandy10 wrote:
badfish wrote:
sandy10 wrote:
fortissimo wrote:Sure, every school does games the system to some degree, but UVA is like barbie on steroids in terms of playing games - cheap, used, and abused. It's by far the worst in the t-14 for gaming the system and by far the worst in terms of yield protection. Some of its gaming tools can only be used once to game the system though (i.e. the ED option). I just hope the other schools don't start resorting to the same tactics, or else the application process will just be a major shit fest.


I guess you aren't familiar with New York University law school and The University of California Berkeley law schools. Both of these schools have been gaming the rankings--hard--for years. They just use different tactics than UVA. Honestly, if people would just start realizing that the US News rankings were not nearly as exact and correct as people think they are (ie school number 5 is not necessarily in another league from school number 9) then people would realize that gaming the rankings is not something to be concerned about.


/not so subtle MVP trolling?


/not so subtle not understanding how the rankings work??? :oops:


No, actually that was not so subtle NYU trolling. :wink:

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los blancos
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby los blancos » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:54 pm

I think people are pissed off about UVa or Penn-type admissions whoring because they believe these schools end up with inflated rankings that may overstate their employment prospects.

My response to this type of thing would be:
1) It's your job to do your due diligence on what goes behind a ranking and to research a particular school's reputation and job prospects
2) UVa's number-whoring isn't locking Cornell out of the T10. These number whores are often just competing with schools that are of similar quality. So what if UVa comes out ahead of Duke an NU by one spot because it managed to bump its GPA median by .05?
3) For those of you that are offended by the feeling that you're being strung along so a school can make itself look more selective, grow a pair. There are several examples in this thread of people who got into far reaches because they got fee waivers. It's your job to know if you're a realistic shot for a school or not.

Also, YPing can usually be countered with a good LOCI. If it isn't, then maybe you're not really being YPed.



The only school whose number whoring I have ever been offended by was WUSTL for its UG admissions. They go way above and beyond what any of these schools do.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby D. H2Oman » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:54 pm

aznflyingpanda wrote:Takes one to know one? :(



I resent you because we have fairly similar numbers and I couldn't get into UVA. I also resent Vanwinkle for the same reason.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:56 pm

Helmholtz wrote:Look. Law school is an investment. If Morgan Stanley negligently mishandles my investment with them, I am due retributive action of some kind. I don't see why it has to be different with the schools. If Michigan drops five spots after I graduate, the school administration is grossly mismanaging my investment, and I think I have a case in reclaiming some of the finances that went toward my education.

If you buy Apple stock at $200/share thinking it's a great long-term investment for the next 40 years, and then the stock drops $10/share because the iPad is announced and people think it doesn't live up to their expectations of what an awesome bliss-inducing tablet should be, you can't sue Apple for the short-term loss, and you shouldn't cry chicken little, either. It'll recover, and probably fairly soon.

That's all a movement in the rankings is, a short-term loss. The school still delivers an overall prestigious education, and it's unlikely any shift like that will last long. Besides which, you still get your primary gains in the exchange (an accredited legal education, an alumni network, a recognized name as one of the best law schools in the country) and a drop of a few or even several spots in the rankings in a single year isn't going to change that all that much.

Once you get into law school and actually take first-year Contracts you'll see how terribly flawed your argument is. It's not a fraudulent or material misrepresentation, so it'd get thrown out of court pretty easily.

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flyingpanda
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby flyingpanda » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:58 pm

Dwaterman86 wrote:
aznflyingpanda wrote:Takes one to know one? :(



I resent you because we have fairly similar numbers and I couldn't get into UVA. I also resent Vanwinkle for the same reason.


Honestly, I'm still in shock UVA accepted me. I'm scared of letting them down.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:58 pm

Dwaterman86 wrote:I resent you because we have fairly similar numbers and I couldn't get into UVA. I also resent Vanwinkle for the same reason.

It's good to be loved.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Helmholtz » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:58 pm

of Benito Cereno wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:PSA: the yield rate does not factor into the USWNR, there's virtually no incentive for YP, hth.

yes it does. % admitted factors in and obviously not admitting students you think won't attend keeps that % lower. so yea, a school with a high yield rate doesn't need to admit as many students and thus YP does effect USNWR quite clearly.


That's like saying the general attractiveness of the school's campus affects USNWR because higher-numbered students matriculate there when given the option of other, not so attractive schools. Does it play a part? Eh, maybe, but why talk about yield rates when it's really the acceptance rate the schools should be worried about instead of the correlation between the two.

sandy10
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby sandy10 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:58 pm

boilercat wrote:I think people are pissed off about UVa or Penn-type admissions whoring because they believe these schools end up with inflated rankings that may overstate their employment prospects.

My response to this type of thing would be:
1) It's your job to do your due diligence on what goes behind a ranking and to research a particular school's reputation and job prospects
2) UVa's number-whoring isn't locking Cornell out of the T10. These number whores are often just competing with schools that are of similar quality. So what if UVa comes out ahead of Duke an NU by one spot because it managed to bump its GPA median by .05?
3) For those of you that are offended by the feeling that you're being strung along so a school can make itself look more selective, grow a pair. There are several examples in this thread of people who got into far reaches because they got fee waivers. It's your job to know if you're a realistic shot for a school or not.

Also, YPing can usually be countered with a good LOCI. If it isn't, then maybe you're not really being YPed.



The only school whose number whoring I have ever been offended by was WUSTL for its UG admissions. They go way above and beyond what any of these schools do.


The bolded would be very very valid, and I would agree, if it was actually true. If anything UVA and Penn's employment prospects are undersold by their ranking. The US News rankings give the impression that NYU and Boalt have stronger employment prospects than UVA, Michigan, and Penn, when in reality they don't (UVA even has a higher lawyer judge score than Boalt and NYU). If anything the only schools in the top 14 that have an inflated employment ranking based around employment prospects are Boalt and NYU. But it's sort of a lesser of two evils, because unless those two schools were tied with MVP they would be getting undersold. To put them below MVP would be unfair, but putting them above isn't right either (if you are focusing on employment prospects, if you are looking at other things like faculty and expenditures then that makes sense).

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los blancos
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby los blancos » Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:04 pm

sandy10 wrote:
boilercat wrote:I think people are pissed off about UVa or Penn-type admissions whoring because they believe these schools end up with inflated rankings that may overstate their employment prospects.

My response to this type of thing would be:
1) It's your job to do your due diligence on what goes behind a ranking and to research a particular school's reputation and job prospects
2) UVa's number-whoring isn't locking Cornell out of the T10. These number whores are often just competing with schools that are of similar quality. So what if UVa comes out ahead of Duke an NU by one spot because it managed to bump its GPA median by .05?
3) For those of you that are offended by the feeling that you're being strung along so a school can make itself look more selective, grow a pair. There are several examples in this thread of people who got into far reaches because they got fee waivers. It's your job to know if you're a realistic shot for a school or not.

Also, YPing can usually be countered with a good LOCI. If it isn't, then maybe you're not really being YPed.



The only school whose number whoring I have ever been offended by was WUSTL for its UG admissions. They go way above and beyond what any of these schools do.


The bolded would be very very valid, and I would agree, if it was actually true. If anything UVA and Penn's employment prospects are undersold by their ranking. The US News rankings give the impression that NYU and Boalt have stronger employment prospects than UVA, Michigan, and Penn, when in reality they don't (UVA even has a higher lawyer judge score than Boalt and NYU). If anything the only schools in the top 14 that have an inflated employment ranking based around employment prospects are Boalt and NYU. But it's sort of a lesser of two evils, because unless those two schools were tied with MVP they would be getting undersold. To put them below MVP would be unfair, but putting them above isn't right either (if you are focusing on employment prospects, if you are looking at other things like faculty and expenditures then that makes sense).


Oh, I agree. I was just postulating what the thought process might be: "z0MG UVa IS BUMPING ITS NUMBERZZ ITS GIVING CORNELL THE SHAFT/GOING TO OVERTAKE MICH ONLY BECUZ ITS BUMPING ITZ NUMBERZ"

I think people get pissed about numbers whoring because they think schools use it to distort expectations. That may happen in some cases (I still maintain that WUSTL is the most overranked UG in this country), but in the T14 this is almost never the case.

FWIW I've always been a proponent of the NYU = Penn argument and I would probably choose Penn between the two. I think Boalt gets hit to a certain extent by East Coast bias, but I agree it belongs with MVP. I also think Duke gets undersold on this site. Desert Fox has actually made a really good argument that, ceteris paribus, your employment prospects at NBMVPDN are very similar.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Helmholtz » Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:08 pm

vanwinkle wrote:It's not a fraudulent or material misrepresentation, so it'd get thrown out of court pretty easily.


Not if it's brought on a replevin action.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:14 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:It's not a fraudulent or material misrepresentation, so it'd get thrown out of court pretty easily.

Not if it's brought on a replevin action.

Er, good luck with that one. :roll:

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Helmholtz
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Helmholtz » Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:14 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:It's not a fraudulent or material misrepresentation, so it'd get thrown out of court pretty easily.

Not if it's brought on a replevin action.

Er, good luck with that one. :roll:


:lol:

I've just been using this thread as entertainment, no hard feelings.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:16 pm

Helmholtz wrote:I've just been using this thread as entertainment

That's good, because your argument was best described as "entertaining". :mrgreen:

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dbt
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby dbt » Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:19 pm

1. Yale
2. Harvard
3. Stanford
4. Columbia
5. NYU
6. Chicago
7. Berkeley
8. Penn
8. Virginia
10. Michigan
11. Northwestern
12. Duke
13. Cornell
13. Georgetown

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Kohinoor
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Kohinoor » Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:26 pm

Helmholtz wrote:Look. Law school is an investment. If Morgan Stanley negligently mishandles my investment with them, I am due retributive action of some kind. I don't see why it has to be different with the schools. If Michigan drops five spots after I graduate, the school administration is grossly mismanaging my investment, and I think I have a case in reclaiming some of the finances that went toward my education.
Analogizing law school to an investment broker leads to flawed conclusions due to the lack of a fiduciary relationship. Schools don't promise you anything beyond an education. The reason they don't include disclaimers about results or placement is because they never make actionable claims in the first place. If you want to liken law school to a direct investment, that might be more appropriate since you're entitled and allowed to throw as much money into a stock as you like with no guarantee of recovery.

bauerahl
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby bauerahl » Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:24 pm

I'm not sure exactly why people are saying that Michigan will somehow drop more than 1 place or UVA is gaming the system via fee waivers. As for Michigan, the construction will only help, not hurt, even in the long run. To the extent that spending per student will decrease once construction stops, wouldn't the fruits of that construction help in some regard? I would think that the new building/area will help in convincing students to apply/attend Michigan. With regard to Virginia, I wasn't aware there was a significant increase in fee waivers. I just spoke with a friend of mine who attends UVA law and does work study in the admissions office and he had no clue about it. Granted, I think he does something like printing out the online applications and isn't told of the admission's policies, etc. but I also can't imagine that he wouldn't hear something about it. Does anyone have any knowledge of the actual rise in fee waivers or is this just a bunch of anecdotes?

Also, on an unrelated note, why do people think that Cornell might drop in the rankings?

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ravens20
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby ravens20 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:27 pm

Sandy10 is Kurama. He criticizes the US News Rankings but focuses entirely on one aspect of them: the lawyer/judge scores.

Renzo
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Renzo » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:35 pm

ravens20 wrote:Sandy10 is Kurama. It's blatantly obvious; he criticizes the US News Rankings but focuses entirely on one aspect of them: the lawyer/judge scores. He also trumpets UVA while taking random potshots at NYU for no reason at all.

You just might be on to something, but I'm not 100% convinced yet. We'll see if he/she descends into nonsensical but passionate arguments; so far Sandy10's arguments are pretty heavily fact-based by Kurama standards.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Helmholtz » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:41 pm

ravens20 wrote:Sandy10 is Kurama. He criticizes the US News Rankings but focuses entirely on one aspect of them: the lawyer/judge scores.


Shit, nice call.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:43 pm

ravens20 wrote:Sandy10 is Kurama. He criticizes the US News Rankings but focuses entirely on one aspect of them: the lawyer/judge scores.

I've been suspecting this too.

Renzo
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Renzo » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:45 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
ravens20 wrote:Sandy10 is Kurama. He criticizes the US News Rankings but focuses entirely on one aspect of them: the lawyer/judge scores.

I've been suspecting this too.

I should pay more attention. I can't be bothered to keep anyone straight until they hit 250 posts.

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badfish
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby badfish » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:46 pm

Renzo wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
ravens20 wrote:Sandy10 is Kurama. He criticizes the US News Rankings but focuses entirely on one aspect of them: the lawyer/judge scores.

I've been suspecting this too.

I should pay more attention. I can't be bothered to keep anyone straight until they hit 250 posts.


good call.

verified and banned.

TLS does not tolerate alts.

Renzo
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Renzo » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:47 pm

badfish wrote:
Renzo wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
ravens20 wrote:Sandy10 is Kurama. He criticizes the US News Rankings but focuses entirely on one aspect of them: the lawyer/judge scores.

I've been suspecting this too.

I should pay more attention. I can't be bothered to keep anyone straight until they hit 250 posts.


good call.

verified and banned.

TLS does not tolerate alts.

To be fair, he did ask to be banned in his TLS suicide note.

NYCornellian
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby NYCornellian » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:59 pm

PDaddy wrote:1) Yale
1) Harvard
3) Stanford
4) Columbia
5) NYU
6) Chicago
7) Penn
8) UVA
9) Berkeley
10) Michigan
11) Northwestern
12) Duke
13) Georgetown
14) Vanderbilt


The rest of the top-25:
15) Cornell
15) UCLA
17) Texas
18) USC
19) Minnesota
19) WUSTL
21) Illinois

22) N.D.
23) Emory
24) BC
25) BU
25) GWU
25) Fordham

I felt obligated to list the rest since I bumped Cornell from the lineup.


1. Cornell








100. Vanderbilt

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Kohinoor
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Kohinoor » Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:04 am

If anyone breaks into the T14, it'll be Georgetown down, Texas up. Discuss.




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