Top 1-14 US News Predictions

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Flanker1067
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Flanker1067 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:32 pm

[quote="fortissimoYeah that one. Georgetown is doing the same thing this cycle. I'm guessing because the shitty economy and absolutely horrid OCI is going to do major damage in terms of employment, so they thought why not up the yield rate.[/quote]

Or they thought, "this practice of allowing people to apply by binding agreement has no reason to be limited to those who apply early. Why don't we change this useless practice and let anyone who wishes to apply the same way?"
Last edited by Flanker1067 on Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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badfish
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby badfish » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:33 pm

sandy10 wrote:
fortissimo wrote:Sure, every school does games the system to some degree, but UVA is like barbie on steroids in terms of playing games - cheap, used, and abused. It's by far the worst in the t-14 for gaming the system and by far the worst in terms of yield protection. Some of its gaming tools can only be used once to game the system though (i.e. the ED option). I just hope the other schools don't start resorting to the same tactics, or else the application process will just be a major shit fest.


I guess you aren't familiar with New York University law school and The University of California Berkeley law schools. Both of these schools have been gaming the rankings--hard--for years. They just use different tactics than UVA. Honestly, if people would just start realizing that the US News rankings were not nearly as exact and correct as people think they are (ie school number 5 is not necessarily in another league from school number 9) then people would realize that gaming the rankings is not something to be concerned about.


/not so subtle MVP trolling?

fortissimo
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby fortissimo » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:35 pm

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Last edited by fortissimo on Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

sandy10
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby sandy10 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:37 pm

fortissimo wrote:
sandy10 wrote:
fortissimo wrote:Sure, every school does games the system to some degree, but UVA is like barbie on steroids in terms of playing games - cheap, used, and abused. It's by far the worst in the t-14 for gaming the system and by far the worst in terms of yield protection. Some of its gaming tools can only be used once to game the system though (i.e. the ED option). I just hope the other schools don't start resorting to the same tactics, or else the application process will just be a major shit fest.


I guess you aren't familiar with New York University law school and The University of California Berkeley law schools. Both of these schools have been gaming the rankings--hard--for years. They just use different tactics than UVA. Honestly, if people would just start realizing that the US News rankings were not nearly as exact and correct as people think they are (ie school number 5 is not necessarily in another league from school number 9) then people would realize that gaming the rankings is not something to be concerned about.


I know Boalt has through the "holistic" process of yield protecting. I haven't heard too much about NYU doing it. I think UVA has taken it to another level though.


There are other means of gaming the rankings--ones that are a lot more effective than YPing. NYU has some massive faculty expenditures ( I think it is one of the highest if not the highest in the top 14), they use this to boost their rankings. Boalt games the rankings through a similar method. One of the most effective ways to game the rankings (which both schools do) is to go gangbusters on trying to "poach" hot name faculty. It quickly and heavily boosts peer assesment scores and student to faculty ratio (which affects the rankings much more than yield protecting does), without boosting job prospects (which should be the most important rankings factor by far, along with lawyer judge prestige, but that isn't what US News really focuses on).
Last edited by sandy10 on Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Helmholtz » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:37 pm

Bosque wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:I see you Bosque. Not kidding. Schools use their USNWR rank to attract students, and students in turn base their decision on that information. If I choose Penn over Michigan because Penn is seen as better in 2009, I should be able to change my decision to Michigan if they're ranked higher in 2010, and Penn should refund my seat deposit. It's practically fraudulent on the schools' parts not to. The bait and switch stuff some of these schools pull is sickening.


Yah, but the rankings are just going to be different the next year, and the next, and the one after that. Should they let you get a tuition refund if your school drops 10 ranks after your 1L year? What if your school drops 25 ranks 5 years after your graduate?


I think there should be some form of compensation, yes.

sandy10
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby sandy10 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:37 pm

badfish wrote:
sandy10 wrote:
fortissimo wrote:Sure, every school does games the system to some degree, but UVA is like barbie on steroids in terms of playing games - cheap, used, and abused. It's by far the worst in the t-14 for gaming the system and by far the worst in terms of yield protection. Some of its gaming tools can only be used once to game the system though (i.e. the ED option). I just hope the other schools don't start resorting to the same tactics, or else the application process will just be a major shit fest.


I guess you aren't familiar with New York University law school and The University of California Berkeley law schools. Both of these schools have been gaming the rankings--hard--for years. They just use different tactics than UVA. Honestly, if people would just start realizing that the US News rankings were not nearly as exact and correct as people think they are (ie school number 5 is not necessarily in another league from school number 9) then people would realize that gaming the rankings is not something to be concerned about.


/not so subtle MVP trolling?


/not so subtle not understanding how the rankings work??? :oops:

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Helmholtz
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Helmholtz » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:38 pm

PSA: the yield rate does not factor into the USWNR, there's virtually no incentive for YP, hth.

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los blancos
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby los blancos » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:38 pm

sandy10 wrote:
fortissimo wrote:Sure, every school does games the system to some degree, but UVA is like barbie on steroids in terms of playing games - cheap, used, and abused. It's by far the worst in the t-14 for gaming the system and by far the worst in terms of yield protection. Some of its gaming tools can only be used once to game the system though (i.e. the ED option). I just hope the other schools don't start resorting to the same tactics, or else the application process will just be a major shit fest.


I guess you aren't familiar with New York University law school and The University of California Berkeley law schools. Both of these schools have been gaming the rankings--hard--for years. They just use different tactics than UVA. Honestly, if people would just start realizing that the US News rankings were not nearly as exact and correct as people think they are (ie school number 5 is not necessarily in another league from school number 9) then people would realize that gaming the rankings is not something to be concerned about.


Hmm I'd love to hear about how Berkeley has been gaming the rankings. How, by admitting people with LSATs that wouldn't get in anywhere else in the T14?

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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby insidethetwenty » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:39 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
Bosque wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:I see you Bosque. Not kidding. Schools use their USNWR rank to attract students, and students in turn base their decision on that information. If I choose Penn over Michigan because Penn is seen as better in 2009, I should be able to change my decision to Michigan if they're ranked higher in 2010, and Penn should refund my seat deposit. It's practically fraudulent on the schools' parts not to. The bait and switch stuff some of these schools pull is sickening.


Yah, but the rankings are just going to be different the next year, and the next, and the one after that. Should they let you get a tuition refund if your school drops 10 ranks after your 1L year? What if your school drops 25 ranks 5 years after your graduate?


I think there should be some form of compensation, yes.


Goldman-Sachs would love to set up a market for securitizing USNWR Ranking compensation, I bet.

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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby stratocophic » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:39 pm

fortissimo wrote:
Flanker1067 wrote:
fortissimo wrote: Yeah that one. Georgetown is doing the same thing this cycle. I'm guessing because the shitty economy and absolutely horrid OCI is going to do major damage in terms of employment, so they thought why not up the yield rate.


Or they thought, "this practice of allowing people to apply by binding agreement has no reason to be limited to those who apply early. Why don't we change this useless practice and let anyone who wishes to be bound to come here?"


You do realize that it's for the benefit of the school, and the school alone right to up their yield, right? (Well short-term benefit...long-term pwnage.) It's another gaming tactic.


Yeah, because removing the stress of waiting for 3+ months to hear from your #1 school conveys no advantage whatsoever to applicants. Of course it's to the school's benefit to up their yield. That doesn't mean that the way they go about doing it carries no benefit for applicants.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Helmholtz » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:40 pm

insidethetwenty wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
Bosque wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:I see you Bosque. Not kidding. Schools use their USNWR rank to attract students, and students in turn base their decision on that information. If I choose Penn over Michigan because Penn is seen as better in 2009, I should be able to change my decision to Michigan if they're ranked higher in 2010, and Penn should refund my seat deposit. It's practically fraudulent on the schools' parts not to. The bait and switch stuff some of these schools pull is sickening.


Yah, but the rankings are just going to be different the next year, and the next, and the one after that. Should they let you get a tuition refund if your school drops 10 ranks after your 1L year? What if your school drops 25 ranks 5 years after your graduate?


I think there should be some form of compensation, yes.


Goldman-Sachs would love to set up a market for securitizing USNWR Ranking compensation, I bet.


Pro tip: start short selling Berkeley.

Flanker1067
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Flanker1067 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:41 pm

fortissimo wrote:
Flanker1067 wrote:
fortissimo wrote: Yeah that one. Georgetown is doing the same thing this cycle. I'm guessing because the shitty economy and absolutely horrid OCI is going to do major damage in terms of employment, so they thought why not up the yield rate.


Or they thought, "this practice of allowing people to apply by binding agreement has no reason to be limited to those who apply early. Why don't we change this useless practice and let anyone who wishes to be bound to come here?"


You do realize that it's for the benefit of the school, and the school alone right to up their yield, right? (Well short-term benefit...long-term pwnage.) It's another gaming tactic.


I realize that it has the effect of upping the matriculation rates. However, I don't believe it is done for any reason relating to rankings. All schools should do this, because it extends the benefits of ED to applicants at any time. There is a reason people apply ED in the first place.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:41 pm

fortissimo wrote:because UVA sends a fee waiver to basically everyone who scored over a 160 even though they will be auto-rejected?....it's like toying with applicants who have no shot in hell at the t-14. I disagree that many of these people will apply despite having the numbers. Most of these applicants with bad numbers will not apply to the t-14 because they have no shot in hell, and will only try if they had a fee waiver.

But whatever, instead of dishing out financial aid/merit aid and recruiting more employers for OCI, I guess UVA can game people into paying sticker in a shitty economy.

Like I said, nobody is making anyone use the fee waiver. How is it toying with someone? If it's so clear that these people will be auto-rejected, then shouldn't an informed applicant know that before he decides to use the fee waiver anyway?

People applying because they got fee waivers ≠ trickery or dishonesty. It's more likely these people are often just taking a shot in the dark that they know is likely to fail because, hey, it's free, so why not. You make it sound like it's so clear and obvious what the result will be, and then object in the same paragraph because the school is "misleading" people. Your argument, to hold, requires an assumption that the people getting these fee waivers are too stupid to look up their actual chances of acceptance before applying. And if that's true, that's a fault of the applicant, not of UVA.

You're also incredibly stupid if you think that UVA is using additional fee waivers instead of offering financial aid or recruiting employers to attend OGI. Do you really think UVA loses that much money off these fee waivers? Another assumption required for your argument to hold is that these are people who wouldn't have applied to UVA if they hadn't gotten the fee waiver. If this is true, UVA isn't "losing" $70 by giving them a fee waiver because they weren't going to get it anyway.

You seem to have severe anger issues and problems with logic and understanding. You should work on those before enrolling in a law school, because those can all hamper your performance and your ability to find work and pay off your loans when you graduate.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:42 pm

fortissimo wrote:You do realize that it's for the benefit of the school, and the school alone right to up their yield, right? (Well short-term benefit...long-term pwnage.) It's another gaming tactic.

So it doesn't benefit the person that applied and got in because of this "tactic" at all, then? I'd love to hear you tell that to some of the people who got into a reach school this way.

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stratocophic
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby stratocophic » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:42 pm

boilercat wrote:
sandy10 wrote:
fortissimo wrote:Sure, every school does games the system to some degree, but UVA is like barbie on steroids in terms of playing games - cheap, used, and abused. It's by far the worst in the t-14 for gaming the system and by far the worst in terms of yield protection. Some of its gaming tools can only be used once to game the system though (i.e. the ED option). I just hope the other schools don't start resorting to the same tactics, or else the application process will just be a major shit fest.


I guess you aren't familiar with New York University law school and The University of California Berkeley law schools. Both of these schools have been gaming the rankings--hard--for years. They just use different tactics than UVA. Honestly, if people would just start realizing that the US News rankings were not nearly as exact and correct as people think they are (ie school number 5 is not necessarily in another league from school number 9) then people would realize that gaming the rankings is not something to be concerned about.


Hmm I'd love to hear about how Berkeley has been gaming the rankings. How, by admitting people with LSATs that wouldn't get in anywhere else in the T14?


Just like Northwestern and UVA admitting people with GPAs that wouldn't get in anywhere else in the T14. The only ones pissed about this are the ones on the wrong side of the dividing line, and that goes for GPA and LSAT alike.

sandy10
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby sandy10 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:46 pm

Helmholtz wrote:PSA: the yield rate does not factor into the USWNR, there's virtually no incentive for YP, hth.


I mentioned this earlier but somehow people aren't aware of this. What's more is that the areas where gaming does the most for one's rankings are the areas that UVA does the least to game (peer scores, faculty expenditures, student to faculty ratio) ,ironically enough. That's one of the reasons that it, and Michigan, have had top 6 lawyer judge scores for years and years, but have been perpetually left out of the top 6. It's not due to actual job prospects or real world prestige. That's one of the reasons that you will find that lawyers in the field think so highly of Michigan but current law students and 0Ls think of Michigan as a "lower" top 14.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:46 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
Bosque wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:I see you Bosque. Not kidding. Schools use their USNWR rank to attract students, and students in turn base their decision on that information. If I choose Penn over Michigan because Penn is seen as better in 2009, I should be able to change my decision to Michigan if they're ranked higher in 2010, and Penn should refund my seat deposit. It's practically fraudulent on the schools' parts not to. The bait and switch stuff some of these schools pull is sickening.

Yah, but the rankings are just going to be different the next year, and the next, and the one after that. Should they let you get a tuition refund if your school drops 10 ranks after your 1L year? What if your school drops 25 ranks 5 years after your graduate?

I think there should be some form of compensation, yes.

This has gone on long enough that I have to ask:

You cannot possibly be serious with this. Are you?

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D. H2Oman
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby D. H2Oman » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:48 pm

Helmholtz wrote:Pro tip: start short selling Berkeley.


:lol:

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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby flyingpanda » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:48 pm

For those of you know my story, you already know this but for those of you who don't: I am in high praise of UVA's extended ED and its fee waiver. As a splitter, I applied to a wide range and variety of schools. I only picked a couple of the t14 to apply to (Cornell, Georgetown, UVA, Columbia). UVA and Columbia were fee waivers. Before I received my fee waiver from UVA, I was barely aware of this school. I knew it was in the t10, but I knew nothing about the student body, placement, environment etc. I almost didn't even consider applying because I would not get in. After doing research, I realized that UVA was a great fit for me. I decided to change my application from RD to ED. I am 100% sure that I would not have gotten in regular decision.

I don't care if UVA sent out fee waivers or extended the ED deadline to game the rankings. To me that's fair game for any school to do. I know that this had a personal impact on me and I'm grateful that UVA gave me what I see as a second chance in life.
Last edited by flyingpanda on Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby D. H2Oman » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:49 pm

aznflyingpanda wrote:For those of you know my story, you already know this but for those of you who don't: I am in high praise of UVA's extended ED and its fee waiver. As a splitter, I applied to a wide range and variety of schools. I only picked a couple of the t14 to apply to (Cornell, Georgetown, UVA, Columbia). UVA and Columbia were fee waivers. Before I received my fee waiver from UVA, I was barely aware of this school. I knew it was in the t10, but I knew nothing about the student body, placement, environment etc. I almost didn't even consider applying because I would not get in. After doing research, I knew that UVA was a great fit for me. I decided to change my application from RD to ED. I am 100% sure that I would not have gotten in regular decision.

I don't care if UVA sent out fee waivers or extended the ED deadline to game the rankings. To me that's fair game for any school to do. I know that this had a personal impact on me and I'm grateful that UVA gave me what I see as a second chance in life.



Splitters have no souls.

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of Benito Cereno
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby of Benito Cereno » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:50 pm

Helmholtz wrote:PSA: the yield rate does not factor into the USWNR, there's virtually no incentive for YP, hth.

yes it does. % admitted factors in and obviously not admitting students you think won't attend keeps that % lower. so yea, a school with a high yield rate doesn't need to admit as many students and thus YP does effect USNWR quite clearly.

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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby flyingpanda » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:50 pm

Dwaterman86 wrote:
aznflyingpanda wrote:For those of you know my story, you already know this but for those of you who don't: I am in high praise of UVA's extended ED and its fee waiver. As a splitter, I applied to a wide range and variety of schools. I only picked a couple of the t14 to apply to (Cornell, Georgetown, UVA, Columbia). UVA and Columbia were fee waivers. Before I received my fee waiver from UVA, I was barely aware of this school. I knew it was in the t10, but I knew nothing about the student body, placement, environment etc. I almost didn't even consider applying because I would not get in. After doing research, I knew that UVA was a great fit for me. I decided to change my application from RD to ED. I am 100% sure that I would not have gotten in regular decision.

I don't care if UVA sent out fee waivers or extended the ED deadline to game the rankings. To me that's fair game for any school to do. I know that this had a personal impact on me and I'm grateful that UVA gave me what I see as a second chance in life.



Splitters have no souls.


Takes one to know one? :(

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Helmholtz
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Helmholtz » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:51 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
Bosque wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:I see you Bosque. Not kidding. Schools use their USNWR rank to attract students, and students in turn base their decision on that information. If I choose Penn over Michigan because Penn is seen as better in 2009, I should be able to change my decision to Michigan if they're ranked higher in 2010, and Penn should refund my seat deposit. It's practically fraudulent on the schools' parts not to. The bait and switch stuff some of these schools pull is sickening.

Yah, but the rankings are just going to be different the next year, and the next, and the one after that. Should they let you get a tuition refund if your school drops 10 ranks after your 1L year? What if your school drops 25 ranks 5 years after your graduate?

I think there should be some form of compensation, yes.

This has gone on long enough that I have to ask:

You cannot possibly be serious with this. Are you?


Look. Law school is an investment. If Morgan Stanley negligently mishandles my investment with them, I am due retributive action of some kind. I don't see why it has to be different with the schools. If Michigan drops five spots after I graduate, the school administration is grossly mismanaging my investment, and I think I have a case in reclaiming some of the finances that went toward my education.

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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Flanker1067 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:51 pm

sandy10 wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:PSA: the yield rate does not factor into the USWNR, there's virtually no incentive for YP, hth.


I mentioned this earlier but somehow people aren't aware of this. What's more is that the areas where gaming does the most for one's rankings are the areas that UVA does the least to game (peer scores, faculty expenditures, student to faculty ratio) ,ironically enough. That's one of the reasons that it, and Michigan, have had top 6 lawyer judge scores for years and years, but have been perpetually left out of the top 6. It's not due to actual job prospects or real world prestige. That's one of the reasons that you will find that lawyers in the field think so highly of Michigan but current law students and 0Ls think of Michigan as a "lower" top 14.



I didn't even know this, and it makes much more sense. It hardly seemed like anything they were doing was for the rankings benefit. Now I know that the argument was ridiculous. Thanks.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:52 pm

aznflyingpanda wrote:For those of you know my story, you already know this but for those of you who don't: I am in high praise of UVA's [strike]extended ED and[/strike] its fee waiver. As a splitter, I applied to a wide range and variety of schools. I only picked a couple of the t14 to apply to ([strike]Cornell[/strike]Penn, Georgetown, UVA, NYU, Columbia). UVA and Columbia were fee waivers. Before I received my fee waiver from UVA, I was barely aware of this school. I knew it was in the t10, but I knew nothing about the student body, placement, environment etc. [strike]I almost didn't even consider applying because I would not get in.[/strike] After doing research, I realized that UVA was a great fit for me.[strike]I decided to change my application from RD to ED. I am 100% sure that I would not have gotten in regular decision.[/strike]
I don't care if UVA sent out fee waivers or extended the ED deadline to game the rankings. To me that's fair game for any school to do. I know that this had a personal impact on me and I'm grateful that UVA gave me what I see as a second chance in life.

Remove stricken and add bolded parts, and this is pretty much my own personal story from last year. I even had almost identical numbers to the panda.




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