Top Law Schools

JCougar wrote:A couple notes:

1) I think it's highly unlikely that WUSTL drops from 19th this year, as many have predicted. The schools aren't just ranked, they are scored (obviously), so distance between ranks isn't exactly equal. Here are the total scores for each of the following schools:

80 Duke
80 Northwestern
80 UVA
78 Cornell
75 Georgetown
74 UCLA
74 Texas
73 Vanderbilt
72 USC
69 WUSTL
66 BU
66 Emory
66 Minnesota
65 Indiana
65 Illinois
65 Notre Dame

There's actually a substantial gap between the scores of the top 18 schools and 20 and below. This gap is actually much larger than the gap between the T14 and everything else. To tie USC, the bottom of this group of schools, Emory would have to add 6 points to its overall score from last cycle or USC would have to drop some. WUSTL is beginning to bridge this gap and creep up to these four schools ranked just outside the T14. They still have some distance to make up, but they are also pulling away from the rest of the pack. And since there's no reason to believe that WUSTL will go down this cycle, we'd have to see any of the schools below it add 4 or more points to surpass it.

Similarly, this just shows how vulnerable Georgetown has actually become. Which brings up my second point: why are people so quick to acknowledge how including PT stats hurt GW while ignoring how they might have negatively affected Georgetown? How much did this change in how the data were processed bring down Georgetown, and how much has Georgetown done to bounce back? If anything, I think Georgetown's numbers will go up this year, rather than down, for the same reason people are expecting GW to bounce back.

faith2202 wrote:As employment prospects to count partially for the ratings, I would say that WUSTL's numbers may have gone down. However, compared to similarly-ranked schools, I have no hard data about how it measures up so it's very possible that other school's employment numbers have gone down just as much.

Georgetown on the other hand seems to be in danger here and it'll be big news if they drop out of T14 since they have bookended the T14 along with Yale for 10 or more years.

notme wrote:This is year old memory, but I believe there were a couple of things. One was that they made unsolicited scholarship offers to individuals that hadn't even applied, based upon last minute (February ?) LSAT results. Not a big deal to me but it upset a lot of previously accepted applicants and made W & L look desperate. That may not have affected their standing - but I believe there was something else as well. You may find it in last years postings.

Muckduck wrote:I heard they were factoring "quantity of beer consumed"

Shaggier1 wrote:This has probably been mentioned so far, but I don't feel like combing over 10 pages so please forgive me if I am echoing others:

All of this talk of schools (UCLA, Vandy, USC, Texas, etc.. ) "breaking into the t14" is a bit nonsensical. After all, if any school other than the current t-14'ers comes in under #15, the t-14 will no longer exist. The whole point of the t-14 is that the same 14 schools have taken spots 1-14 since USNews rankings first came out. It a non t-14'er was to enter the t-14 then the streak would end.

And that is why the t-14 will be alive and kicking for years to come. USNews can't afford to lose its famous t-14--the centerpiece of its law-school ranking system. There will be several shakeups, but I don't see any new members in the near future.

Shaggier1 wrote:This has probably been mentioned so far, but I don't feel like combing over 10 pages so please forgive me if I am echoing others:

All of this talk of schools (UCLA, Vandy, USC, Texas, etc.. ) "breaking into the t14" is a bit nonsensical. After all, if any school other than the current t-14'ers comes in under #15, the t-14 will no longer exist. The whole point of the t-14 is that the same 14 schools have taken spots 1-14 since USNews rankings first came out. It a non t-14'er was to enter the t-14 then the streak would end.

And that is why the t-14 will be alive and kicking for years to come. USNews can't afford to lose its famous t-14--the centerpiece of its law-school ranking system. There will be several shakeups, but I don't see any new members in the near future.

Shaggier1 wrote:This has probably been mentioned so far, but I don't feel like combing over 10 pages so please forgive me if I am echoing others:

All of this talk of schools (UCLA, Vandy, USC, Texas, etc.. ) "breaking into the t14" is a bit nonsensical. After all, if any school other than the current t-14'ers comes in under #15, the t-14 will no longer exist. The whole point of the t-14 is that the same 14 schools have taken spots 1-14 since USNews rankings first came out. It a non t-14'er was to enter the t-14 then the streak would end.

And that is why the t-14 will be alive and kicking for years to come. USNews can't afford to lose its famous t-14--the centerpiece of its law-school ranking system. There will be several shakeups, but I don't see any new members in the near future.

Shaggier1 wrote:This has probably been mentioned so far, but I don't feel like combing over 10 pages so please forgive me if I am echoing others:

All of this talk of schools (UCLA, Vandy, USC, Texas, etc.. ) "breaking into the t14" is a bit nonsensical. After all, if any school other than the current t-14'ers comes in under #15, the t-14 will no longer exist. The whole point of the t-14 is that the same 14 schools have taken spots 1-14 since USNews rankings first came out. It a non t-14'er was to enter the t-14 then the streak would end.

And that is why the t-14 will be alive and kicking for years to come. USNews can't afford to lose its famous t-14--the centerpiece of its law-school ranking system. There will be several shakeups, but I don't see any new members in the near future.

jay115 wrote:

Shaggier1 wrote:This has probably been mentioned so far, but I don't feel like combing over 10 pages so please forgive me if I am echoing others:

All of this talk of schools (UCLA, Vandy, USC, Texas, etc.. ) "breaking into the t14" is a bit nonsensical. After all, if any school other than the current t-14'ers comes in under #15, the t-14 will no longer exist. The whole point of the t-14 is that the same 14 schools have taken spots 1-14 since USNews rankings first came out. It a non t-14'er was to enter the t-14 then the streak would end.

And that is why the t-14 will be alive and kicking for years to come. USNews can't afford to lose its famous t-14--the centerpiece of its law-school ranking system. There will be several shakeups, but I don't see any new members in the near future.

I think your logic is nonsensical. The T14 would still exist as the top 14 schools as established by USWNR would be the top 14 schools, but I think you mean to say the label "T14" would no longer hold as much lay reputation as it currently does.

And to some extent, I think you're wrong. Past the T6, I think schools become rapidly regional, and the differences between the lower T14 and the lower T18 between regions becomes marginal in regards to exit options. I doubt judges and employers are likely to take someone at the bottom of Cornell's class over someone at the top of Texas' class just because Cornell is a T14 school - or else it's probably not an employer you'd want to work for.

Bobushka22 wrote:If it helps anybody with their rankings... I have a 174 LSAT (cancel, 163, 174... sick one on the cancel, crazy family issues on the 163... addendum included), 3.68 GPA (super weak undergrad. institution... hard course loads, but like that matters), mucho gringo male (if it matters... who knows , incredible soft factors (worked two and three jobs through school, heavy volunteer work, collegiate athlete, multiple leadership positions held, was homeless early during my undergrad experience) ... right now I am leaning heavily towards Notre Dame. Please note that I applied at the end of December and have significant financial restrictions. However, there are a couple similarly ranked institutions that I could just afford to attend, but Notre Dame has been the most professional and helpful of all the schools I've spoken with and seem to have incredible upside with national portability, new facilities, and a new Dean. I am just one student, but I am one student with some pretty sweet a-- numbers. Please note that I haven't committed yet and am still awaiting decisions and offers from a number of other top institutions. Here is my cycle thus far (with some schools left out in case an admissions person is trolling this bad boy):

ND- 25K/yr (stated they would make an adjustment based off of a 30k/yr offer I received from two other institutions in the top 25 and are putting through paper work so that I could receive a larger scholarship from a private donor. And... more than anything... they've been helpful.

Vandy - 20k/yr - totally not helpful... totally still would like to go to their school.... totally broke and have no quality cosigners (I may have resolved this problem with a $6,000 lottery ticket that allowed me to clear up some prior debts... still very iffy on being able to sign Grad Plus myself though as I had two student loans go four months late each in 2007... I didn't receive my statement, but they refuse to clear it from my file... jerks!)

Washington University in St. Louis - No news

USC - Accepted (no news on financial aid offering... should know in the next week)

UCLA - No news

Virginia - Waitlisted (but with a super awesome response to an inquiry about being waitlisted... basically got the vibe that I will be accepted off of it, but you all probably know I don't know for sure)

Michigan - Rejected

Columbia - First Reserve

Northwestern - no news

I applied to schools both in regions where I wanted to live and where I might be less inclined in the hope of negotiating for matching offers... if this put somebody on a waiting list... I am truly sorry. Basically, I am just trying to go to the best school that I can afford to go to. However, leaning strongly towards ND right now people. You have been warned.

Bobushka22 wrote:Meh... really don't know... supposed that it would help to show the type of students (numbers wise) that are considering the school. Earlier in the postings somebody noted that Notre Dame was attracting more number friendly applicants than in previous years as one of their arguments for them climbing the rankings. Way too much info though, you are right. I blame it on coffee. Anyways, edited it out as you will see. Have a good day and don't be a douche with the whole, I have a T-14 scholly... because that's pretty douchy (especially when you are commenting on a thread for the top schools right outside the T-14... like really, we don't believe you are going to a T-14 because why would you even be on this thread)... especially when you are trying to comment about how douchy other people are. Forgive me for my explicit ad hominem response to your implicit one. Merry Christmas.

dood wrote:- Or even the judicial influence law firms (i.e. Mayer Brown's Supreme Court practice in DC - the best in the country)

tallboone wrote:The schools in the "t-14" are significant, not the number 14. So it doesn't matter if georgetown moves up or down relative to UCLA, Texas, etc because it's still better recognized nationally. I'm sure some of you have read "One L" by Scott Turrow. While I wasn't that impressed with the book, I was struck by the fact that he mentions how everyone wants to go to the same elite group of schools due to the down economy, and that those schools just happen to include the t-14. the book was first published in the early 1970's, well before US News started creating group think.

jay115 wrote:

tallboone wrote:The schools in the "t-14" are significant, not the number 14. So it doesn't matter if georgetown moves up or down relative to UCLA, Texas, etc because it's still better recognized nationally. I'm sure some of you have read "One L" by Scott Turrow. While I wasn't that impressed with the book, I was struck by the fact that he mentions how everyone wants to go to the same elite group of schools due to the down economy, and that those schools just happen to include the t-14. the book was first published in the early 1970's, well before US News started creating group think.

Yet as several people have mentioned, the T14 was not comprised of the same 14 schools as it is now (eg. UCLA was in the T14 during the first publication of USWNR). Thus, two premises of your argument (one stated and established by the fact) contradict each other.

Puffy wrote:

jay115 wrote:

tallboone wrote:The schools in the "t-14" are significant, not the number 14. So it doesn't matter if georgetown moves up or down relative to UCLA, Texas, etc because it's still better recognized nationally. I'm sure some of you have read "One L" by Scott Turrow. While I wasn't that impressed with the book, I was struck by the fact that he mentions how everyone wants to go to the same elite group of schools due to the down economy, and that those schools just happen to include the t-14. the book was first published in the early 1970's, well before US News started creating group think.

Yet as several people have mentioned, the T14 was not comprised of the same 14 schools as it is now (eg. UCLA was in the T14 during the first publication of USWNR). Thus, two premises of your argument (one stated and established by the fact) contradict each other.

All he's saying is that the elite group of top 14 schools is not a magazine invention but a more entrenched idea, at least as evidenced by some book by some guy.

Shaggier1 wrote:This has probably been mentioned so far, but I don't feel like combing over 10 pages so please forgive me if I am echoing others:

jay115 wrote:

Puffy wrote:

jay115 wrote:

tallboone wrote:The schools in the "t-14" are significant, not the number 14. So it doesn't matter if georgetown moves up or down relative to UCLA, Texas, etc because it's still better recognized nationally. I'm sure some of you have read "One L" by Scott Turrow. While I wasn't that impressed with the book, I was struck by the fact that he mentions how everyone wants to go to the same elite group of schools due to the down economy, and that those schools just happen to include the t-14. the book was first published in the early 1970's, well before US News started creating group think.

Yet as several people have mentioned, the T14 was not comprised of the same 14 schools as it is now (eg. UCLA was in the T14 during the first publication of USWNR). Thus, two premises of your argument (one stated and established by the fact) contradict each other.

All he's saying is that the elite group of top 14 schools is not a magazine invention but a more entrenched idea, at least as evidenced by some book by some guy.

No, he's (she's?) saying that the T14 is an entrenched label with a composition of certain schools, therefore if the composition changes then it follows that the label "T14 school" will no longer hold as much weight because the composition of the T14 is essential to the weight of the label T14. I merely provided a counterexample to one of his/her suspect premises.