Top Law Schools

I second what imchuckbass said about CLS's Crim profs. I have Edgar, who is not on imchuckbass' short list of really good Crim profs, but I'll add him to that list. Edgar is ridiculously good. He's engaging and funny, and grills you with some tough questions that really make you think. His hard socratic approach might be a little intimidating, but damn does he challenge you to think critically and justify your responses.

Renzo and lsathalon's comments (above) are entirely fair and correct. I agree, CLS and NYU are largely comparable and the decision comes down to personal preference. I chose CLS, so I suppose I'm a little biased in favor in CLS, but a perfectly reasonable person could choose NYU over CLS. Visit both, talk with students and sit in on classes, and see which appeals to you more. The decision was clear to me, but your preferences might differ from mine.

I just got into Columbia today, so add me to the list of people who has to make this decision (plus UVA, which I would not rule out, especially if I get scholarship money there). I am interested in PI, so I am leaning NYU of the three, but am going to go to all 3 ASW's and get a better feel for each school, then decide.

I'm a 3L who chose Columbia because I liked their public interest programs best, but I was down to NYU, CLS, and UVA at the end. It was a tough call because I LOVED all three. I doubt you could go wrong with any of the three (UVA's LRAP could use a boost, but a mid-sized scholarship easily fixes that problem). Still, PM me if you have specific questions about going the public interest route at Columbia.

I just got into Columbia on Thursday, so now I am one of the many 0L's trying to decide between the two (although I am not ruling out UVA either). I have a question about location,:

If there is anyone here who is familiar with both DC and NYC, could you tell me if in terms of location only, the difference between NYU and Columbia is comparable to the location difference between GW and American? Or maybe Georgetown v. American is the better comparison. Is Columbia's location in NY comparable to American's location in DC, or is it more urban/less remote than where American is in DC? Is NYU's location in NYC kind of like either Georgetown (the neighborhood/main campus, not the law school) or Adams Morgan?

democrattotheend wrote:I just got into Columbia on Thursday, so now I am one of the many 0L's trying to decide between the two (although I am not ruling out UVA either). I have a question about location,:

If there is anyone here who is familiar with both DC and NYC, could you tell me if in terms of location only, the difference between NYU and Columbia is comparable to the location difference between GW and American? Or maybe Georgetown v. American is the better comparison. Is Columbia's location in NY comparable to American's location in DC, or is it more urban/less remote than where American is in DC? Is NYU's location in NYC kind of like either Georgetown (the neighborhood/main campus, not the law school) or Adams Morgan?

This made me dizzy.

democrattotheend wrote:I just got into Columbia on Thursday, so now I am one of the many 0L's trying to decide between the two (although I am not ruling out UVA either). I have a question about location,:

If there is anyone here who is familiar with both DC and NYC, could you tell me if in terms of location only, the difference between NYU and Columbia is comparable to the location difference between GW and American? Or maybe Georgetown v. American is the better comparison. Is Columbia's location in NY comparable to American's location in DC, or is it more urban/less remote than where American is in DC? Is NYU's location in NYC kind of like either Georgetown (the neighborhood/main campus, not the law school) or Adams Morgan?

I am familiar with both DC and NYC, and all I can say is that you really need to go visit NYC in person. The analogies you are looking for just aren't there. There is nothing in DC that is even remotely comparable to Greenwich Village.

I will say that Columbia is more connected to downtown NYC than American is to downtown DC. For one thing, Columbia is on a subway line. As you know, American isn't on a DC metro line. In any event, you should go to NYC and see this for yourself.

Dignan wrote: I am familiar with both DC and NYC, and all I can say is that you really need to go visit NYC in person. The analogies you are looking for just aren't there. There is nothing in DC that is even remotely comparable to Greenwich Village.

I will say that Columbia is more connected to downtown NYC than American is to downtown DC. For one thing, Columbia is on a subway line. As you know, American isn't on a DC metro line. In any event, you should go to NYC and see this for yourself.

Ditto. NYC--for better and for worse--is like no other city in the US. I would say that DC is less distinctive in that there are other US cities on the same scale with strong similarities. The only city in the US even approaching the scale of NYC is LA, and LA is still much smaller and not in anyway the same kind of city.

I was held at Columbia and I got into NYU already. How to do the two schools compare as far as placing people in CT (where I will be returning after law school)? When people talk about placement outside of New York they are usually referring to West Coast placement. I know I will need to find a job in CT, as that is where my fiance lives and works and where we both want to put down roots (he works in the Hartford area). I am interested in government work, but understand that I may have to work in a firm before I will have a shot at the really good gov't jobs. Can anyone give me a sense of how these two schools would compare in this regard? (Not that it is a given that I will get in after being held... but in case I do).

Edited and removed

markie wrote:I was held at Columbia and I got into NYU already. How to do the two schools compare as far as placing people in CT (where I will be returning after law school)? When people talk about placement outside of New York they are usually referring to West Coast placement. I know I will need to find a job in CT, as that is where my fiance lives and works and where we both want to put down roots (he works in the Hartford area). I am interested in government work, but understand that I may have to work in a firm before I will have a shot at the really good gov't jobs. Can anyone give me a sense of how these two schools would compare in this regard? (Not that it is a given that I will get in after being held... but in case I do).

I don't think either school is going to help/hurt you. For all practical hiring purposes, CT is one huge suburb of NYC. Now, whether or not any jobs at all exist in Hartford, I can't say. I know there are a few hedge funds based in Hartford, but I am unaware of any big firms that have offices there.

Renzo wrote:

markie wrote:I was held at Columbia and I got into NYU already. How to do the two schools compare as far as placing people in CT (where I will be returning after law school)? When people talk about placement outside of New York they are usually referring to West Coast placement. I know I will need to find a job in CT, as that is where my fiance lives and works and where we both want to put down roots (he works in the Hartford area). I am interested in government work, but understand that I may have to work in a firm before I will have a shot at the really good gov't jobs. Can anyone give me a sense of how these two schools would compare in this regard? (Not that it is a given that I will get in after being held... but in case I do).

I don't think either school is going to help/hurt you. For all practical hiring purposes, CT is one huge suburb of NYC. Now, whether or not any jobs at all exist in Hartford, I can't say. I know there are a few hedge funds based in Hartford, but I am unaware of any big firms that have offices there.

I would expect most if not all high-paying law jobs in Connecticut to be on the Gold Coast, in Stamford or Norwalk and environs. There's not much in Hartford.

I officially have to make this decision now. Heading to the late March ASW for NYU and the early April one for Columbia. Can any Columbia student explain their grading scale to me? Also, anyone know how their corporate law tracks differ? Thanks!

CG614 wrote:I officially have to make this decision now. Heading to the late March ASW for NYU and the early April one for Columbia. Can any Columbia student explain their grading scale to me? Also, anyone know how their corporate law tracks differ? Thanks!

The 1L curve is as follows. The 2L and 3L curves are more lenient:

A+: Discretionary for truly exceptional performance. Max 1 per class

A: 5-10%

A-: 12-18%

Range for all A family grades: 20-25%

B+: 25-35%

Range for all grades B+ and above: 45-55%

B: 30-40%

Range for all grades B and above: 85-93%

Range for all grades B- and below: 7-15%

In my experience (some profs release curves from past years) professors grade around the middle of this range. Cs are not mandated and are rare, but they do happen. Fs are pretty unheard of. The way this works out is there's a big blob from about 3.1-3.5, with a few exceptional students above 3.5, and a few people who didn't do so well below 3.1. To give you reference. My impression is that median is ~3.3, top 30% is ~3.4, and top 3% is ~3.8.

This is slightly stricter than NYUs curve, but it follows the same general shape. Really it shouldn't matter, though, since employers know the curves and higher relative to your classmates.

There is no corporate law "track." If you want to take corporate law classes you take them. There are great professors and lots of offerings, but I'm sure the same can be said about NYU.

I'm also between the two schools. I went to both admitted students weekends last week and I personally like the housing and area around Columbia much better. I went to an undergrad that had a large campus so the "campus" at Columbia makes me feel more comfortable and I just plain like the area better. However, I am personally wondering about the people. Can anyone comment as to what the people at both are like? I've heard that Columbia tends to be full of gunners and ultra-cutthroat people while NYU is much more laidback. How true is that?

Thanks!

I've done some asking around, and I've learned that Columbia has in-house pro-bono programs with the Manhattan and Queens DAs, where you assist ADAs with case work and fulfill your mandatory pro-bono requirement. NYU has no such program, so you'd basically apply to the office directly for an in-semester internship.

NYU also permits students to work part-time during their 1L year. I've emailed a bunch of Columbia offices with the same question but am still waiting for a reply.

Series70 wrote:I've done some asking around, and I've learned that Columbia has in-house pro-bono programs with the Manhattan and Queens DAs, where you assist ADAs with case work and fulfill your mandatory pro-bono requirement. NYU has no such program, so you'd basically apply to the office directly for an in-semester internship.

NYU also permits students to work part-time during their 1L year. I've emailed a bunch of Columbia offices with the same question but am still waiting for a reply.

NYU has term-time clinics with the SDNY and ENDY criminal divisions, if you're looking for prosecutorial experience.

hofman777 wrote:However, I am personally wondering about the people [at CLS]. Can anyone comment as to what the people at both are like? I've heard that Columbia tends to be full of gunners and ultra-cutthroat people while NYU is much more laidback. How true is that?

If you live nearby or happen to get the chance to visit CLS again soon, I highly recommend talking with random students - that's really the best way to identify the student personality. However, if you're willing to accept second hand opinions, I'm very happy with my classmates here at CLS! I find that people are generally friendly and supportive. When I visited CLS last spring, I left with a very favorable impression of the students, but when I showed up for the first day of classes in August I still had some lingering fears that my classmates might suck. I've been more than pleasantly surprised and, thanks in large part to my classmates, I'm having way more fun in law school than I ever thought I would.

democrattotheend wrote:I just got into Columbia on Thursday, so now I am one of the many 0L's trying to decide between the two (although I am not ruling out UVA either). I have a question about location,:

If there is anyone here who is familiar with both DC and NYC, could you tell me if in terms of location only, the difference between NYU and Columbia is comparable to the location difference between GW and American? Or maybe Georgetown v. American is the better comparison. Is Columbia's location in NY comparable to American's location in DC, or is it more urban/less remote than where American is in DC? Is NYU's location in NYC kind of like either Georgetown (the neighborhood/main campus, not the law school) or Adams Morgan?

Georgetown (main campus) v. GW is the location analogy you're looking for FRIEND.

GU = CU, GW = NYU. I've actually thought about this prior 2 yer question.

I was talking to a friend about this decision and he provided this link. Read into it what you want. I am still torn... I've always wanted to go to NYU...

--LinkRemoved--

^ Not surprising given the higher # of top NYU students that self select for public interest. Besides, I hardly think that one case is indicative. For biglaw in NYC, the difference between the schools is minuscule and for other top firms like WLRK and Crevath, I imagine NYU students have the upper hand.

CG614 wrote:I was talking to a friend about this decision and he provided this link. Read into it what you want. I am still torn... I've always wanted to go to NYU...

--LinkRemoved--

If you want more data, Brian Leiter has compiled this for a bunch of firms (scroll down to "breakdown by firm")

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

That said, don't read into this overly much. There are some firms that tend to hire more columbia grads, and others that tend to hire more NYU grads. S&C I think is one of the former, as are Skadden and Cravath, but there are other firms that tend to hire more NYU grads, such as Cleary or K&E.

I do think there is a (very slight) placement advantage for Columbia into elite NYC firms, but these numbers might overstate it - keep in mind self-selection, not only in terms of going into biglaw (where the proportions are very similar) but also remaining in biglaw past 3 or 4 years.

imchuckbass58 wrote:

CG614 wrote:I was talking to a friend about this decision and he provided this link. Read into it what you want. I am still torn... I've always wanted to go to NYU...

--LinkRemoved--

If you want more data, Brian Leiter has compiled this for a bunch of firms (scroll down to "breakdown by firm")

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

That said, don't read into this overly much. There are some firms that tend to hire more columbia grads, and others that tend to hire more NYU grads. S&C I think is one of the former, as are Skadden and Cravath, but there are other firms that tend to hire more NYU grads, such as Cleary or K&E.

I do think there is a (very slight) placement advantage for Columbia into elite NYC firms, but these numbers might overstate it - keep in mind self-selection, not only in terms of going into biglaw (where the proportions are very similar) but also remaining in biglaw past 3 or 4 years.

Really, aren't the heads of both Skadden and Cravath NYU alums?

Veyron wrote: Really, aren't the heads of both Skadden and Cravath NYU alums?

Yes, but I imagine they don't singlehandedly make hiring decisions (in fact, I imagine they're minimally involved in the hiring process at all).

Veyron wrote:

imchuckbass58 wrote:

CG614 wrote:I was talking to a friend about this decision and he provided this link. Read into it what you want. I am still torn... I've always wanted to go to NYU...

--LinkRemoved--

If you want more data, Brian Leiter has compiled this for a bunch of firms (scroll down to "breakdown by firm")

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

That said, don't read into this overly much. There are some firms that tend to hire more columbia grads, and others that tend to hire more NYU grads. S&C I think is one of the former, as are Skadden and Cravath, but there are other firms that tend to hire more NYU grads, such as Cleary or K&E.

I do think there is a (very slight) placement advantage for Columbia into elite NYC firms, but these numbers might overstate it - keep in mind self-selection, not only in terms of going into biglaw (where the proportions are very similar) but also remaining in biglaw past 3 or 4 years.

Really, aren't the heads of both Skadden and Cravath NYU alums?

I'm not sure about that but the founders of Wachtell are certainly all NYU alums.

imchuckbass58 wrote: There are some firms that tend to hire more columbia grads, and others that tend to hire more NYU grads. S&C I think is one of the former, as are Skadden and Cravath, but there are other firms that tend to hire more NYU grads, such as Cleary or K&E.

I do think there is a (very slight) placement advantage for Columbia into elite NYC firms, but these numbers might overstate it - keep in mind self-selection, not only in terms of going into biglaw (where the proportions are very similar) but also remaining in biglaw past 3 or 4 years.

I agree with every single point here. CLS tends to attract more people who want big firms, and thus stay in big firms. That means a deeper alumni network at firms, which make it a slightly better choice if you know you want firm work, and the cycle continues. That being said, NYU and CLS have basically the same class size and grading curve, and I'll bet money that firms use the same grade cutoffs at both schools, so come OCI neither school is really going to offer an advantage.