NYU vs. Columbia: Class of 2013 Forum

[lsathalon]

For someone who wants to go into Biglaw, which is better?
I am an international student so do not know much about the difference between CLS and NYU (especially since USNWR ranks CLS and NYU at 4th an odd number of times...)

Columbia's better. Go there if money's equal or relatively close to equal.

It's not quite as black and white as that. Yes, Columbia's placement is somewhat better, but the difference isn't that large. If placement is your only criterion, go to Columbia. If you care about anything else (faculty, area, quality of life, type of student), take a closer look at both to determine your preference.

[Renzo]

For someone who wants to go into Biglaw, which is better?
I am an international student so do not know much about the difference between CLS and NYU (especially since USNWR ranks CLS and NYU at 4th an odd number of times...)

Columbia's better. Go there if money's equal or relatively close to equal.

It's not quite as black and white as that. Yes, Columbia's placement is somewhat better, but the difference isn't that large. If placement is your only criterion, go to Columbia. If you care about anything else (faculty, area, quality of life, type of student), take a closer look at both to determine your preference.

This. Your happiness at school will effect your job prospects far more than the marginal difference between the schools. But it is worth considering, among other factors, that CLS puts a larger class percentage in biglaw jobs.

[Unemployed]

For someone who wants to go into Biglaw, which is better?
I am an international student so do not know much about the difference between CLS and NYU (especially since USNWR ranks CLS and NYU at 4th an odd number of times...)

Actually, in its 23-year history, USNews has ranked NYU ahead of CLS only 3 times... But I suspect there will be more trade-offs in the future.

And yeah, CLS is marginally better for prestigious biglaw.

[Legalite]

...

[dutchstriker]

For someone who wants to go into Biglaw, which is better?
I am an international student so do not know much about the difference between CLS and NYU (especially since USNWR ranks CLS and NYU at 4th an odd number of times...)

Columbia's better. Go there if money's equal or relatively close to equal.

What if both are at sticker?

I think that would qualify as equal or close to equal.

[Renzo]

For someone who wants to go into Biglaw, which is better?
I am an international student so do not know much about the difference between CLS and NYU (especially since USNWR ranks CLS and NYU at 4th an odd number of times...)

Columbia's better. Go there if money's equal or relatively close to equal.

What if both are at sticker?

Really? You pop into a thread where both CLSers and NYUers have been pouring out information, and the person you want advice from is the 0L recommending the school that offered to let him come free, who has contributed 9 words to the thread?

[T14_Scholly]

Go with Columbia - if you were to tell someone who knows nothing about law schools that you went to NYU, they wouldn't think as highly of you as they would if you said you went to Columbia. It's important to be prestigious in life.

[dutchstriker]

For someone who wants to go into Biglaw, which is better?
I am an international student so do not know much about the difference between CLS and NYU (especially since USNWR ranks CLS and NYU at 4th an odd number of times...)

Columbia's better. Go there if money's equal or relatively close to equal.

What if both are at sticker?

Really? You pop into a thread where both CLSers and NYUers have been pouring out information, and the person you want advice from is the 0L recommending the school that offered to let him come free, who has contributed 9 words to the thread?

Huh? I wasn't the one who originally suggested that Columbia is better. I'm not agreeing with that assessment either. I'm just suggesting the question asked is already addressed under that scenario.

Unless that guy (thickfreakness) also got a Hamilton, I think you're confused.

Edit: But I appreciate the condescension.

[Renzo]

Huh? I wasn't the one who originally suggested that Columbia is better. I'm not agreeing with that assessment either. I'm just suggesting the question asked is already addressed under that scenario.

Unless that guy (thickfreakness) also got a Hamilton, I think you're confused.

Edit: But I appreciate the condescension.

It's been a long day, so I'll admit the possibility of confusion... I am condescending towards both the idea and the proponents of the idea that all anyone would want to decide between schools is the line, "_______ is better" from a stranger on the internet. Pardon me if you don't fall into that category, but the follow-up to the question re/ thickfreakness' non-advice seemed to indicate you might. If I misunderstood, I'm sorry.

I agonized over my decision (which included both schools under discussion), and I am very happy with my choice. I want everyone to be that happy with their choice, and I have expended considerable effort (on this board, IRL, and at undergrad career fairs) to try and give honest information so that everyone can be as happy with their school as I am. So when someone says," ______ is better, period, for everyone and always," it irritates me to see them taken seriously.

[dutchstriker]

Huh? I wasn't the one who originally suggested that Columbia is better. I'm not agreeing with that assessment either. I'm just suggesting the question asked is already addressed under that scenario.

Unless that guy (thickfreakness) also got a Hamilton, I think you're confused.

Edit: But I appreciate the condescension.

It's been a long day, so I'll admit the possibility of confusion... I am condescending towards both the idea and the proponents of the idea that all anyone would want to decide between schools is the line, "_______ is better" from a stranger on the internet. Pardon me if you don't fall into that category, but the follow-up to the question re/ thickfreakness' non-advice seemed to indicate you might. If I misunderstood, I'm sorry.

I agonized over my decision (which included both schools under discussion), and I am very happy with my choice. I want everyone to be that happy with their choice, and I have expended considerable effort (on this board, IRL, and at undergrad career fairs) to try and give honest information so that everyone can be as happy with their school as I am. So when someone says," ______ is better, period, for everyone and always," it irritates me to see them taken seriously.

No man, I definitely agree with you. I'm really not looking forward to having to make my decision. And I often read your posts and appreciate what you have to say. So thank you for that. Part of the reason I read much more than I post is because I don't want to add clutter in between the useful posts from users like you.

But yeah, I wouldn't and didn't say "Columbia is better". I was just pointing out that paying sticker for both should be considered the same as paying a "roughly equal" amount. I didn't mean to justify or legitimize the original assertion, just to point out the person asking the question wasn't actually asking a different question.

[TheWire]

NYU is better for now...
because Columbia hasn't accepted me yet

[underdawg]

A big part of Columbia's attractiveness for me is the prestige. I was reading John Kroger's Convictions (which I highly recommend if you're interested in being a prosecutor) and he mentions how one of his federal defendants turned to him while everyone was awaiting a verdict, and asked him where he went to law school. Kroger replied "Harvard," and the guy (a mafia big shot) was all impressed: "Wow, my prosecutor went to Harvard!" While not as prestigious as Harvard, Columbia still sounds impressive. To the uninformed, NYU just sounds like a state school. Although the law schools are equal, as a whole, Columbia University is still a better institution (although NYU is currently overtaking them in many departments). Talking to some of my friends at CLS, that was one of the reasons they chose Columbia over NYU law.

jesus christ

[scribelaw]

Does anyone know whether Columbia has an edge over NYU for DC placement?

[Renzo]

Does anyone know whether Columbia has an edge over NYU for DC placement?

Anyone who says they can answer that question is lying. There are way too many confounding factors to get any sort of factual answer (self-selection, general difficulty of cracking the DC market, appellate firms preference for clerks, etc.)

[TheWire]

For anyone that hasn't seen these outdated statistics...

http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/

[mwazaumoja]

The two schools are really the same (except where they're different). NYU is just significantly more liberal, and Columbia is only sort of liberal. It's more a matter of culture and history.

Neither school is going to foreclose you from any job. Just see which school has more professors you like.

The only reason I chose NYU is that they had kegs at their ASW. I met a guy at Columbia who chose CLS because they had a rugby team.

If a name really means that much to you, I'd certainly go to CLS.

[twistedwrister]

Does anyone know whether Columbia has an edge over NYU for DC placement?

Anyone who says they can answer that question is lying. There are way too many confounding factors to get any sort of factual answer (self-selection, general difficulty of cracking the DC market, appellate firms preference for clerks, etc.)

Agreed. The best, if not the only, way to really determine whether School X "places better or worse" than School Y in any market is to compare the grade/class rank cutoffs of the schools at various firms. For example, if Firm Z will only interview or hire from the top 30% of the class at NYU, but will hire from the top 40% at Columbia, then obviously Columbia has a placement advantage over NYU at that firm. Unfortunately, we don't have that kind of data (or at least don't have the data from multiple law schools in order to make a comparison). Just looking at raw numbers of associates are various firms won't tell you very much about placement power.

[sophie316]

You already have Columbia on your resume. All other things being equal, getting another NYC alumni base is probably a good thing. I made the same decision last year(altho my columbia degree was undergrad not grad) and while I love Morningside heights, after 4 years up there I decided to change it up a bit.

[Legalite]

Haha, I had some wishful thinking I can get into CLS sticker...after all that, I am packing my bags for BU (since I got a lofty scholly offer there).

[Dtackpat75]

Employment statistics for the current class I think will be telling. When the shit hits the fan who is still getting hired and finding jobs. That is what I am interested in. Employment statistics for the classes of 2006 - 2008 really should have no bearing.

[Drew2010]

Employment statistics for the current class I think will be telling. When the shit hits the fan who is still getting hired and finding jobs. That is what I am interested in. Employment statistics for the classes of 2006 - 2008 really should have no bearing.

When is the employment statistics for the current class expected to come out?

[Dtackpat75]

Well the haven't graduated yet so probably a little while. I was at Columbia the other day and they said 90% of the class of 2010 had jobs lined up. They seemed to think that the number was only going to go up and they also seemed pretty happy with that number all things considered. Now I don't know the breakdown of where that 90% was working. I know they said clerkships were up 30+% or something. But you knid of need other schools employment #s to be able to qualify these. I visit NYU in April maybe they will have some employment numbers to throw out there as well.

[Series70]

Just a few more items that came to mind, for what it's worth.

1) NYU offers a total of $1k more in summer aid for those seeking PI/gov internships ($4.5k 1L/$6.5k 2L vs. $4k and $6k at Columbia).

2) James B. Jacobs teaches Criminal Law to 1Ls at NYU. I'm a big fan of his work (although I guess it's all luck whether you get into his class or not). On the flip side, I've heard from Columbia students that they've had pretty dismal experiences with their 1L Crim Law profs.

3) Columbia has Constitutional Law as a mandatory Spring semester class for 1Ls. At NYU, it's an elective, which means you may not get it, since electives are awarded by lottery. I don't agree with that, since Con Law is especially important for those who want to intern with a USAO over the summer.

I'd be interested to hear from any NYU students about their experiences in Crim Law, getting Con Law as an elective, and, especially, doing pro-bono work during their 1L year. Thanks!

[imchuckbass58]

Just a few more items that came to mind, for what it's worth.

1) NYU offers a total of $1k more in summer aid for those seeking PI/gov internships ($4.5k 1L/$6.5k 2L vs. $4k and $6k at Columbia).

2) James B. Jacobs teaches Criminal Law to 1Ls at NYU. I'm a big fan of his work (although I guess it's all luck whether you get into his class or not). On the flip side, I've heard from Columbia students that they've had pretty dismal experiences with their 1L Crim Law profs.

3) Columbia has Constitutional Law as a mandatory Spring semester class for 1Ls. At NYU, it's an elective, which means you may not get it, since electives are awarded by lottery. I don't agree with that, since Con Law is especially important for those who want to intern with a USAO over the summer.

I'd be interested to hear from any NYU students about their experiences in Crim Law, getting Con Law as an elective, and, especially, doing pro-bono work during their 1L year. Thanks!

A couple of comments:

1) A minor point, but Columbia's stipend is actually $4,200 for 1L PI, and they allow you to supplement up to $5,200 - that is, if you get another $1,000 from another source (there are all sorts of outside fellowships) they won't reduce the amount you receive from Columbia.

2) I actually pretty strenuously disagree with this. Gerard Lynch, Debra Livingston, Jeffrey [homophobic language redacted] and James Liebman all teach 1L crim (Lynch and Liebman I think every year, [homophobic language redacted] and Livingston on and off). I have Lynch who is a 2nd circuit judge (which is a real treat with his anecdotes and stories), not to mention he has won the university-wide and law school-wide teaching prizes in the past. Probably one of the best professors I've had so far. Livingston is also a 2nd circuit judge, and from what I hear she's great. I have no idea how Liebman and [homophobic language redacted] are as teachers, but they wrote the seminal study on the inaccuracy of the death penalty that led several states to abolish or suspend it (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/summary ... -s-liebman).

Not sure what you've heard, but I suspect some people just don't like crim (it's very different from other subjects), rather than not liking their professors.


3) True, though some people debate the true usefulness of conlaw. You use it very little in real practice supposedly, and the parts you do use can be learned very quickly on the job.

[Series70]

^ Thanks! Especially for your comments on Columbia's Crim Law professors--it's great to hear another perspective.