Question About Pursuing a Career in Academia

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Oberlion
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Question About Pursuing a Career in Academia

Postby Oberlion » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:18 am

I am wondering if anyone can speak to which of the following plans would be preferable for someone hoping to enter academia:

Plan A: Go to (and graduate from) MVP (or other lower-ranked schools in the T14), make law review.

Plan B: Go to MVP for 1L, transfer to HYSCCN (thus forfeiting pretty much any chance of making law review).

What my question basically boils down to is whether or not the advantages of going to a T6 school (for the purpose of finding employment in academia) are outweighed by the advantages of being on the law review at a T7-14.

I realize that both of these options rely on a couple of improbable contingencies (Plan A assumes that the person will have the grades to make law review, Plan B assumes that their grades are good enough to transfer to T6)

I apologize if this question has been answered elsewhere; I was unable to find anything about it.

Thanks, guys.

aad
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Re: Question About Pursuing a Career in Academia

Postby aad » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:20 am

Go check out the websites of law schools where you would like to teach and see where the various professors earned their JDs.

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Oberlion
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Re: Question About Pursuing a Career in Academia

Postby Oberlion » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:22 am

aad wrote:Go check out the websites of law schools where you would like to teach and see where the various professors earned their JDs.


The problem with that approach seems to be that most law professors (granted, I am only assuming) don't transfer.

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Aeroplane
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Re: Question About Pursuing a Career in Academia

Postby Aeroplane » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:27 am

You shouldn't assume that transferring means no law review. That's not always the case. Check each school's policy.

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Joga Bonito
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Re: Question About Pursuing a Career in Academia

Postby Joga Bonito » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:33 am

Oberlion wrote:
aad wrote:Go check out the websites of law schools where you would like to teach and see where the various professors earned their JDs.


The problem with that approach seems to be that most law professors (granted, I am only assuming) don't transfer.


If you can transfer to YHS then that would probably be your best option. I know law professors who transferred and said they wouldn't have the jobs they have today if they hadn't done it and they have a good feel for the nature of the teaching market. Although I don't think it would be worth transferring from MVP just to go to CCN. Maybe Chicago but that’s it.

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Oberlion
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Re: Question About Pursuing a Career in Academia

Postby Oberlion » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:43 am

Joga Bonito wrote: I know law professors who transferred and said they wouldn't have the jobs they have today if they hadn't done it.


Out of curiosity where do they teach, and where did they transfer from/to? Thanks.

ps494
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Re: Question About Pursuing a Career in Academia

Postby ps494 » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:48 am

It seems like some T2s, TTTs, and TTTTs have some law professors outside of the top 14. How difficult all of you say it would be to work at one of these schools with a JD outside of the top 14?

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Joga Bonito
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Re: Question About Pursuing a Career in Academia

Postby Joga Bonito » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:51 am

Oberlion wrote:
Joga Bonito wrote: I know law professors who transferred and said they wouldn't have the jobs they have today if they hadn't done it.


Out of curiosity where do they teach, and where did they transfer from/to? Thanks.


Not that I think law facutly/admins look at these forums much, but i don't want to possibly identify that person or myself, I'll just say he/she came from a T50 or so to a T6, thats a big difference so its definitely worth it, I think it's slightly different with the OP since he's ideally coming from the T14 to the T6 or so. The prof I'm describing now teachs at a top law school ie T25. I know another who came from the T30 to the T6.

ps494
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Re: Question About Pursuing a Career in Academia

Postby ps494 » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:57 am

Why exactly is academia so competitive? I realize the hours and pay aren't bad, but it's so damn competitive (even more so than biglaw) that you would expect it to come with an outrageous salary or something.

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Oberlion
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Re: Question About Pursuing a Career in Academia

Postby Oberlion » Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:00 am

ps494 wrote:Why exactly is academia so competitive? I realize the hours and pay aren't bad, but it's so damn competitive (even more so than biglaw) that you would expect it to come with an outrageous salary or something.


I think it's because it's so much less demanding than big law (also the salary is nothing to scoff at... especially when you take into account all of the ancillary benefits)

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Joga Bonito
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Re: Question About Pursuing a Career in Academia

Postby Joga Bonito » Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:01 am

ps494 wrote:Why exactly is academia so competitive? I realize the hours and pay aren't bad, but it's so damn competitive (even more so than biglaw) that you would expect it to come with an outrageous salary or something.


I don't know, I guess its a lot of what you said: good salary, less hours, good pay, less stressful, good benefits, longevity, nice environment, you can have a life, a family and you can almost write about whatever you want. This is of course if your a full tenured prof or on tenure track etc.

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daddymike
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Re: Question About Pursuing a Career in Academia

Postby daddymike » Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:03 am

Some of the best law professors have come from outside the T14. Still in the top 100, however.
You basically need a 3.6 GPA or higher, with no B grades whatsoever to land a respectable teaching job.

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ihatelaw
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Re: Question About Pursuing a Career in Academia

Postby ihatelaw » Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:15 am

daddymike wrote:You basically need a 3.6 GPA or higher, with no B grades whatsoever to land a respectable teaching job.


im assuming you mean this for schools outside the t14. In the t14, and especially the t6, thats not the case.



If you go to a T14, the most important thing you can do is publish. Everything else is secondary. According to Leiter, for academia it is only worth it to transfer to Yale. If you publish two or three notes/articles by the time you finish law school, then you will probably be better off for academia than the guy with high GPA/law review/prestigious clerkship w/o any publications. Not to say that the latter won't help. Keep in mind that new profs at t6 schools tend to have all of the above + SC clerkships...

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calgal17
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Re: Question About Pursuing a Career in Academia

Postby calgal17 » Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:19 am

ps494 wrote:It seems like some T2s, TTTs, and TTTTs have some law professors outside of the top 14. How difficult all of you say it would be to work at one of these schools with a JD outside of the top 14?


My Dad went to a T2 (he was editor of law review there) and now is a professor at a TTTT (it's a part time job, not his day job)

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thesealocust
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Re: Question About Pursuing a Career in Academia

Postby thesealocust » Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:21 am

edit: never mind
Last edited by thesealocust on Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Renzo
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Re: Question About Pursuing a Career in Academia

Postby Renzo » Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:25 am

daddymike wrote:Some of the best law professors have come from outside the T14. Still in the top 100, however.
You basically need a 3.6 GPA or higher, with no B grades whatsoever to land a respectable teaching job.

Uh...

Where did you pull this from? Because it smells like fresh butthole...

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Oberlion
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Re: Question About Pursuing a Career in Academia

Postby Oberlion » Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:31 am

thesealocust wrote:I mean no offense, but to be perfectly blunt: If you think transferring from a T10 to a T6 might improve your odds of obtaining a job in the legal academy, you really have no idea what you're getting into.


According to Leiter, Yale sent 86 grads into academia between 2003-2007, while Duke only sent 10. Granted, those are the extremes... also, if you mean that one's chances are only a shade above 0% irrespective of where they go, then I agree with you.

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Doritos
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Re: Question About Pursuing a Career in Academia

Postby Doritos » Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:36 am

Renzo wrote:
daddymike wrote:Some of the best law professors have come from outside the T14. Still in the top 100, however.
You basically need a 3.6 GPA or higher, with no B grades whatsoever to land a respectable teaching job.

Uh...

Where did you pull this from? Because it smells like fresh butthole...


i lol'd at this comment. carry on then...

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Aeroplane
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Re: Question About Pursuing a Career in Academia

Postby Aeroplane » Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:30 am

ihatelaw wrote:
daddymike wrote:You basically need a 3.6 GPA or higher, with no B grades whatsoever to land a respectable teaching job.


im assuming you mean this for schools outside the t14. In the t14, and especially the t6, thats not the case.

If you go to a T14, the most important thing you can do is publish. Everything else is secondary. According to Leiter, for academia it is only worth it to transfer to Yale. If you publish two or three notes/articles by the time you finish law school, then you will probably be better off for academia than the guy with high GPA/law review/prestigious clerkship w/o any publications. Not to say that the latter won't help. Keep in mind that new profs at t6 schools tend to have all of the above + SC clerkships...
You cannot treat "note" and "article" as synonymous. People will probably laugh at you if you go on the market with a law review note or two. Very very few law students will publish a law review article by graduation, and I've never heard of one publishing two although I'm sure it has happened. The convention is that, to have a shot at a tenure track offer, the absolute minimum you must have is a law review article that is pretty ready for publication, but ideally you would have published two articles in law reviews. This is why most candidates who receive tenure-track offers are several years out of law school and are often 5+ years out of law school (that plus clerking). Below is a link to the Solum Entry-Level Hiring report from 2008. Note that very few hires graduated in 2006 or 2007.

Edit: here's the link http://lsolum.typepad.com/legaltheory/2008/04/2008-entry-leve.html
Edit 2: I agree with the general gist of the above post that publications are becoming more important and grades/clerkships less important.

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ihatelaw
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Re: Question About Pursuing a Career in Academia

Postby ihatelaw » Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:31 am

Aeroplane wrote:
ihatelaw wrote:
daddymike wrote:You basically need a 3.6 GPA or higher, with no B grades whatsoever to land a respectable teaching job.


im assuming you mean this for schools outside the t14. In the t14, and especially the t6, thats not the case.

If you go to a T14, the most important thing you can do is publish. Everything else is secondary. According to Leiter, for academia it is only worth it to transfer to Yale. If you publish two or three notes/articles by the time you finish law school, then you will probably be better off for academia than the guy with high GPA/law review/prestigious clerkship w/o any publications. Not to say that the latter won't help. Keep in mind that new profs at t6 schools tend to have all of the above + SC clerkships...
You cannot treat "note" and "article" as synonymous. People will probably laugh at you if you go on the market with a law review note or two. Very very few law students will publish a law review article by graduation, and I've never heard of one publishing two although I'm sure it has happened. The convention is that, to have a shot at a tenure track offer, the absolute minimum you must have is a law review article that is pretty ready for publication, but ideally you would have published two articles in law reviews. This is why most candidates who receive tenure-track offers are several years out of law school and are often 5+ years out of law school (that plus clerking). Below is a link to the Solum Entry-Level Hiring report from 2008. Note that very few hires graduated in 2006 or 2007.

Edit: here's the link http://lsolum.typepad.com/legaltheory/2008/04/2008-entry-leve.html
Edit 2: I agree with the general gist of the above post that publications are becoming more important and grades/clerkships less important.



i misspoke when i said "note/article". to clarify, a person who published one or more articles is generally in a better position that a person, despite a prestigious resume, who didn't publish.

from what i understood from my profs, a student that publishes multiple notes, has some research, etc will be in a better place than a non-published student for say a fellowship or non-tenure track assistant prof - something that will allow you to publish/research (which for some people is the overall goal as opposed to spending 5 years practicing). not every student is capable of doing this but some students do come to law school with higher degrees and goals to teach, and in some cases, published articles in their fields of study.

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rowlf
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Re: Question About Pursuing a Career in Academia

Postby rowlf » Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:30 pm

I'm trying to get a feel for whether HYS at sticker would be worth picking over MVP with money. Academia is so difficult to get, and I'm certain I'd rather do that than anything else. Why shouldn't I do everything possible to maximize my odds? I plan to hit the ground running wherever I go, but will hard work + getting published + serving on a journal get me further at HYS than doing the same things at MVP in terms of academia and clerkships? I am inclined to think so, and am leaning towards HS (I'm not in at Y) for that reason. I'm looking to have the alternate view pitched at me hard, though, and I'm looking at LRAPs and such...

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thesealocust
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Re: Question About Pursuing a Career in Academia

Postby thesealocust » Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:53 pm

edit: never mind
Last edited by thesealocust on Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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daddymike
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Re: Question About Pursuing a Career in Academia

Postby daddymike » Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:04 pm

Renzo wrote:
daddymike wrote:Some of the best law professors have come from outside the T14. Still in the top 100, however.
You basically need a 3.6 GPA or higher, with no B grades whatsoever to land a respectable teaching job.

Uh...

Where did you pull this from? Because it smells like fresh butthole...




90 seconds into HLS's website and:

http://www.law.harvard.edu/faculty/dire ... tml?id=539 JD, Northeastern

http://www.law.harvard.edu/faculty/dire ... tml?id=590 JD, University of Arizona

And let's not forget the man himself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Hovenkamp JD, UT Austin


You must obviously like fresh buttholes.






.

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Doritos
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Re: Question About Pursuing a Career in Academia

Postby Doritos » Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:06 pm

Related Question: how does one get published?

p.s. If anyone gives a smart ass TLS comment such as "Write stuff" I swear to god...


...I'll probably chuckle

Renzo
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Re: Question About Pursuing a Career in Academia

Postby Renzo » Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:19 pm

daddymike wrote:
Renzo wrote:
daddymike wrote:Some of the best law professors have come from outside the T14. Still in the top 100, however.
You basically need a 3.6 GPA or higher, with no B grades whatsoever to land a respectable teaching job.

Uh...

Where did you pull this from? Because it smells like fresh butthole...




90 seconds into HLS's website and:

http://www.law.harvard.edu/faculty/dire ... tml?id=539 JD, Northeastern

http://www.law.harvard.edu/faculty/dire ... tml?id=590 JD, University of Arizona

And let's not forget the man himself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Hovenkamp JD, UT Austin


You must obviously like fresh buttholes.

Uh, so help me out. Where does Harvard say that you have to have a 3.6 with no B's whatsoever to find a "respectable" teaching gig? For that matter, where does Wikipedia say it? Or does your butthole have a website from which you pull made-up facts?




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