Berkeley v. Columbia v. Georgetown

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crackberry
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Re: Berkeley v. Columbia v. Georgetown

Postby crackberry » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:10 pm

Enter the USNWR trolls.

drsomebody
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Re: Berkeley v. Columbia v. Georgetown

Postby drsomebody » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:28 pm

CLS and Boalt will give you more options than those offered by Georgetown.

Beyond that? With $$$ being equal (and remembering that NYC is a slightly more expensive place to live than SF), I'd just visit both campuses, talk to students and professors at both schools, and decide where you'd be happier for three years of your life.

I'd personally rather be at Columbia. But that's because I've always wanted to live in New York. I lived in Oakland for a summer and it's an amazing city. You can't go wrong living there (or in San Francisco, or in Berkeley). Palo Alto on the other hand. . .

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M51
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Re: Berkeley v. Columbia v. Georgetown

Postby M51 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:12 pm

So, we've established in many places for the past semester, CLS places better than Berkeley (at least ITE) in west coast firms. I'm not sure that IP firms are all that diff, at least the IP people around here don't think so. Our IP profs are also top of the game (check out the website, Wu and Ginsberg are pretty big names at least), so not sure how Berkeley would be better there.

Your other paths seem to all end in DC. Does Berkeley place well there? I have no idea, but I would imagine that CLS has the edge there for lit at least. I have no data, I just thought CLS was generally more national than Berkeley.

Plus, isn't tuition at the UC schools going to skyrocket in the next couple of years? (i hear rumors of 60k or something crazy at ATL).

I'm obviously biased, but I think a good case can be made for CLS.

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Dignan
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Re: Berkeley v. Columbia v. Georgetown

Postby Dignan » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:33 pm

Thank you for all the responses! The trajectory of this thread has been amusing. The first few posts, everyone suggested Berkeley; the last few posts, almost everyone suggested Columbia. It's as if the CLS supporters were waiting for one person to suggest it before joining in.

For those who explained their recommendation for Columbia, the best argument I see (considering my goals) is that Columbia has a substantial edge over Berkeley with respect to clerkships and academia, particularity on the East Coast. If such a substantial difference exists, that would indeed be a reason to seriously consider Columbia over Berkeley. I am skeptical, though. I don't doubt that Columbia, when compared to Berkeley, has more lay prestige on the East Coast, but does Columbia really have significantly more prestige among the legal elites?

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crackberry
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Re: Berkeley v. Columbia v. Georgetown

Postby crackberry » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:36 pm

Dignan wrote:Thank you for all the responses! The trajectory of this thread has been amusing. The first few posts, everyone suggested Berkeley; the last few posts, almost everyone suggested Columbia. It's as if the CLS supporters were waiting for one person to suggest it before joining in.

For those who explained their recommendation for Columbia, the best argument I see (considering my goals) is that Columbia has a substantial edge over Berkeley with respect to clerkships and academia, particularity on the East Coast. If such a substantial difference exists, that would indeed be a reason to seriously consider Columbia over Berkeley. I am skeptical, though. I don't doubt that Columbia, when compared to Berkeley, has more lay prestige on the East Coast, but does Columbia really have significantly more prestige among the legal elites?

In NYC BigLaw? Yes. Outside of that, I don't think so. Definitely not in California. Don't know about DC.

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Kronk
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Re: Berkeley v. Columbia v. Georgetown

Postby Kronk » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:38 pm

Dignan wrote:For those who explained their recommendation for Columbia, the best argument I see (considering my goals) is that Columbia has a [strike]substantial[/strike] negligible edge over Berkeley with respect to [strike]clerkships and[/strike] academia, [strike]particularity[/strike] only on the East Coast.


http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2000 ... erks.shtml -- go by the ratio of clerks to class size.
http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008 ... hing.shtml -- .07 to .10, not that significant, and that was 2003-2007 when Berkeley was ranked outside the top ten. I would imagine they are even closer now.

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Dignan
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Re: Berkeley v. Columbia v. Georgetown

Postby Dignan » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:40 pm

crackberry wrote:
Dignan wrote:Thank you for all the responses! The trajectory of this thread has been amusing. The first few posts, everyone suggested Berkeley; the last few posts, almost everyone suggested Columbia. It's as if the CLS supporters were waiting for one person to suggest it before joining in.

For those who explained their recommendation for Columbia, the best argument I see (considering my goals) is that Columbia has a substantial edge over Berkeley with respect to clerkships and academia, particularity on the East Coast. If such a substantial difference exists, that would indeed be a reason to seriously consider Columbia over Berkeley. I am skeptical, though. I don't doubt that Columbia, when compared to Berkeley, has more lay prestige on the East Coast, but does Columbia really have significantly more prestige among the legal elites?

In NYC BigLaw? Yes. Outside of that, I don't think so. Definitely not in California. Don't know about DC.

Agreed about California. If I was certain that I wanted an IP career in Cali, the decision would be a no-brainer. But I also don't know about the perceptions of the DC market (both public and private) and that's a relevant factor here. I'd be interested to hear opinions on that.

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Re: Berkeley v. Columbia v. Georgetown

Postby sandy10 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:52 pm

I'm not sure which area you prefer, but if you really want DC then you should really rule out Boalt. Columbia will simply be a better choice hands down, for DC work. In DC Harvard and Yale are king, with Stanford following them closely. After that it seems that UVA , CLS, and Chicago do particularly well and are all pretty comparable for DC. DC is my number one choice market and I've spent a good deal of time researching the market. Boalt really shouldn't even be in the conversation for DC.

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Re: Berkeley v. Columbia v. Georgetown

Postby crackberry » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:58 pm

VoidSix wrote:
Dignan wrote:For those who explained their recommendation for Columbia, the best argument I see (considering my goals) is that Columbia has a [strike]substantial[/strike] negligible edge over Berkeley with respect to [strike]clerkships and[/strike] academia, [strike]particularity[/strike] only on the East Coast.


http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2000 ... erks.shtml -- go by the ratio of clerks to class size.
http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008 ... hing.shtml -- .07 to .10, not that significant, and that was 2003-2007 when Berkeley was ranked outside the top ten. I would imagine they are even closer now.

Those are SCOTUS rankings. While, in an ideal world, we'd all become SCOTUS clerks, I think COA clerkship stats are more relevant. Is there a comparison of that somewhere?

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Kronk
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Re: Berkeley v. Columbia v. Georgetown

Postby Kronk » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:59 pm

crackberry wrote:
VoidSix wrote:
Dignan wrote:For those who explained their recommendation for Columbia, the best argument I see (considering my goals) is that Columbia has a [strike]substantial[/strike] negligible edge over Berkeley with respect to [strike]clerkships and[/strike] academia, [strike]particularity[/strike] only on the East Coast.


http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2000 ... erks.shtml -- go by the ratio of clerks to class size.
http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008 ... hing.shtml -- .07 to .10, not that significant, and that was 2003-2007 when Berkeley was ranked outside the top ten. I would imagine they are even closer now.

Those are SCOTUS rankings. While, in an ideal world, we'd all become SCOTUS clerks, I think COA clerkship stats are more relevant. Is there a comparison of that somewhere?


http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... iii_clerks

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Kronk
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Re: Berkeley v. Columbia v. Georgetown

Postby Kronk » Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:01 pm


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crackberry
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Re: Berkeley v. Columbia v. Georgetown

Postby crackberry » Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:09 pm

VoidSix wrote:http://lawclerkaddict2009.blogspot.com/2009/01/top-31-law-school-chart.html

Stanford FTW

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nealric
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Re: Berkeley v. Columbia v. Georgetown

Postby nealric » Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:25 pm

Enter the USNWR trolls.


Seriously, it has nothing to do with USNWR.

Also, nobody who matters cares if Boalt or Columbia go up or town one or two places in USNWR. The reputations of the respective schools are pretty firmly established- even if the USNWR didn't exist.

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Kronk
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Re: Berkeley v. Columbia v. Georgetown

Postby Kronk » Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:26 pm

nealric wrote:
Enter the USNWR trolls.


Seriously, it has nothing to do with USNWR.

Also, nobody who matters cares if Boalt or Columbia go up or town one or two places in USNWR. The reputations of the respective schools are pretty firmly established- even if the USNWR didn't exist.


Then I guess you would agree Chicago > Columbia?

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nealric
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Re: Berkeley v. Columbia v. Georgetown

Postby nealric » Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:53 pm


Then I guess you would agree Chicago > Columbia?


I think that one is a close enough call that it pretty much comes down to personal preference. Columbia is a bit more biglaw oriented, Chi is a bit more academic/clerkship oriented.

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Kronk
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Re: Berkeley v. Columbia v. Georgetown

Postby Kronk » Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:56 pm

My point: if you can show me where that reputation makes Columbia a better choice than Boalt for the OP, make that argument. No one really cares about the prestige of Columbia if it doesn't manifest in some concrete way--which it doesn't outside of BigLaw (which the OP doesn't seem to have a huge interest in).

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nealric
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Re: Berkeley v. Columbia v. Georgetown

Postby nealric » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:03 am

My point: if you can show me where that reputation makes Columbia a better choice than Boalt for the OP, make that argument. No one really cares about the prestige of Columbia if it doesn't manifest in some concrete way--which it doesn't outside of BigLaw (which the OP doesn't seem to have a huge interest in).


I couldn't really make a great argument to that effect other than for biglaw. Mostly, Boalt would be the choice for someone with a strong west coast preference. I could make such an argument for GULC though (even as a GULC student).

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chris0805
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Re: Berkeley v. Columbia v. Georgetown

Postby chris0805 » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:43 am

I think that Columbia's reputation goes further than biglaw. I think this whole Columbia = Biglaw Oriented can be VERY overstated. Yes, we're generally putting around 80 % in big firms, but that's not meaningfully more than any of the other schools in the T14.

With that said, go wherever you're happiest. Columbia will be better for the east coast, but the schools are similar enough in prestige that you can go off personal preference. I would definitely visit both, talk to current students and go to the school that feels like the best "fit." You'll want to do well wherever you go, and you're more likely to do well somewhere that you're happy.

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Kronk
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Re: Berkeley v. Columbia v. Georgetown

Postby Kronk » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:45 am

chris0805 wrote:I think that Columbia's reputation goes further than biglaw. I think this whole Columbia = Biglaw Oriented can be VERY overstated. Yes, we're generally putting around 80 % in big firms, but that's not meaningfully more than any of the other schools in the T14.

With that said, go wherever you're happiest. Columbia will be better for the east coast, but the schools are similar enough in prestige that you can go off personal preference. I would definitely visit both, talk to current students and go to the school that feels like the best "fit." You'll want to do well wherever you go, and you're more likely to do well somewhere that you're happy.


It does. But that doesn't mean that it's reputation outside of BigLaw is still superior to Berkeley's. I just don't think there is too much evidence to support that. Slightly better for academia, but mostly negligible from the stats I've seen.

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dresden doll
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Re: Berkeley v. Columbia v. Georgetown

Postby dresden doll » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:49 am

VoidSix wrote:My point: if you can show me where that reputation makes Columbia a better choice than Boalt for the OP, make that argument. No one really cares about the prestige of Columbia if it doesn't manifest in some concrete way--which it doesn't outside of BigLaw (which the OP doesn't seem to have a huge interest in).


It does in academia.

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Kronk
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Re: Berkeley v. Columbia v. Georgetown

Postby Kronk » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:54 am

dresden doll wrote:
VoidSix wrote:My point: if you can show me where that reputation makes Columbia a better choice than Boalt for the OP, make that argument. No one really cares about the prestige of Columbia if it doesn't manifest in some concrete way--which it doesn't outside of BigLaw (which the OP doesn't seem to have a huge interest in).


It does in academia.


Link?

http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2 ... tion.shtml

I don't consider that significant. Leiter also ranks them based on membership in the AAS, which Columbia is one spot above Boalt in as well (21% to 17%), however, two years prior, in 2006, Boalt was 3rd, with 24%, so once again I think the difference in negligible.

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Re: Berkeley v. Columbia v. Georgetown

Postby Dignan » Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:35 am

crackberry wrote:
VoidSix wrote:http://lawclerkaddict2009.blogspot.com/2009/01/top-31-law-school-chart.html

Stanford FTW

Wow. I think very highly of SLS, but I never would have expected it to outpace YLS for appellate clerk placement. That's very impressive.

Here is a list, broken down by law school, of all federal clerks who worked for Article III judges:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=75513

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Dignan
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Re: Berkeley v. Columbia v. Georgetown

Postby Dignan » Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:57 am

VoidSix wrote:
chris0805 wrote:I think that Columbia's reputation goes further than biglaw. I think this whole Columbia = Biglaw Oriented can be VERY overstated. Yes, we're generally putting around 80 % in big firms, but that's not meaningfully more than any of the other schools in the T14.

With that said, go wherever you're happiest. Columbia will be better for the east coast, but the schools are similar enough in prestige that you can go off personal preference. I would definitely visit both, talk to current students and go to the school that feels like the best "fit." You'll want to do well wherever you go, and you're more likely to do well somewhere that you're happy.


It does. But that doesn't mean that it's reputation outside of BigLaw is still superior to Berkeley's. I just don't think there is too much evidence to support that. Slightly better for academia, but mostly negligible from the stats I've seen.

I think the raw numbers support what you're saying. But let me just play devil's advocate for a moment.

I have been out of school for several years. While I was in school, several of my classmates applied to, and a few were accepted by, Boalt. Almost without exception, these classmates were interested in clerking and then doing academia or PI work. I can honestly say that I didn't know a single person who went to Berkeley with the intention of moving onto big law after graduation. It turned out, not surprisingly, that a couple of them ended up in big law, but that was the result of settling after realizing that clerking/academia wasn't in the cards.

I suspect, but I don't know for sure, that Columbia Law is different. I imagine that a substantial majority of students go to Columbia with the intention of securing a job in big law after graduation. Most of these students are not thinking about clerking and they're certainly not thinking about academia. I think it's possible that someone with a clerkship/academia focus at Columbia might have less competition than at Berkeley. In other words, those clerkship/academia percentage figures might be misleading. If, say, 20% of Berkeley students seek a career in academia but only 5% of Columbia students do, then Columbia's relative placement power might be stronger than the raw numbers suggest.

I tend to be wary of these kinds of self-selection arguments. Based on my experience, however, Berkeley seems to attract an unusually high percentage of students who have career goals that involve clerkships/academia. Thoughts?

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Billy Blanks
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Re: Berkeley v. Columbia v. Georgetown

Postby Billy Blanks » Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:19 am

Dignan wrote:
VoidSix wrote:
chris0805 wrote:I think that Columbia's reputation goes further than biglaw. I think this whole Columbia = Biglaw Oriented can be VERY overstated. Yes, we're generally putting around 80 % in big firms, but that's not meaningfully more than any of the other schools in the T14.

With that said, go wherever you're happiest. Columbia will be better for the east coast, but the schools are similar enough in prestige that you can go off personal preference. I would definitely visit both, talk to current students and go to the school that feels like the best "fit." You'll want to do well wherever you go, and you're more likely to do well somewhere that you're happy.


It does. But that doesn't mean that it's reputation outside of BigLaw is still superior to Berkeley's. I just don't think there is too much evidence to support that. Slightly better for academia, but mostly negligible from the stats I've seen.

I think the raw numbers support what you're saying. But let me just play devil's advocate for a moment.

I have been out of school for several years. While I was in school, several of my classmates applied to, and a few were accepted by, Boalt. Almost without exception, these classmates were interested in clerking and then doing academia or PI work. I can honestly say that I didn't know a single person who went to Berkeley with the intention of moving onto big law after graduation. It turned out, not surprisingly, that a couple of them ended up in big law, but that was the result of settling after realizing that clerking/academia wasn't in the cards.

I suspect, but I don't know for sure, that Columbia Law is different. I imagine that a substantial majority of students go to Columbia with the intention of securing a job in big law after graduation. Most of these students are not thinking about clerking and they're certainly not thinking about academia. I think it's possible that someone with a clerkship/academia focus at Columbia might have less competition than at Berkeley. In other words, those clerkship/academia percentage figures might be misleading. If, say, 20% of Berkeley students seek a career in academia but only 5% of Columbia students do, then Columbia's relative placement power might be stronger than the raw numbers suggest.

I tend to be wary of these kinds of self-selection arguments. Based on my experience, however, Berkeley seems to attract an unusually high percentage of students who have career goals that involve clerkships/academia. Thoughts?


I understand your dilemma but, although I am sympathetic to your argument, I feel that we're unable to properly characterize the intentions of the entering class as simply as Boalt=PI/academia/clerkships and Columbia=BigLaw. Admittedly, you, having several friends at Boalt, are in a better position to evaluate the composition of the Berkeley law school than I am. I have to go on reputation (which tells me to go to Boalt), admissions packets (Columbia invited me to interview for a fellowship that provides $$ to those interested in political/gov sector) and, ultimately, some subjective judgment about where I should attend.

I seriously don't know for myself, but from everything you've posted, it looks like you would be really happy at Berkeley. If that's the case, then do it. You already know the great opportunities a Berkeley JD provides, it lines up well with what you want to do, and you know and appreciate the type of student that matriculates at Berkeley (at least from what you've surmised from the experiences of your friends). Am I just preaching to myself now? Let's move past the argument over whether CLS or Boalt would benefit you more in placement and focus on where you'd be happiest. In the end, won't that determine how well you do and, consequently, whether and where you get to clerk.

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Dignan
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Re: Berkeley v. Columbia v. Georgetown

Postby Dignan » Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:42 am

Billy Blanks wrote:Let's move past the argument over whether CLS or Boalt would benefit you more in placement and focus on where you'd be happiest. In the end, won't that determine how well you do and, consequently, whether and where you get to clerk.

Oh, there's no question that being happy is important. I agree with you. To be honest, I think I'd be happy at either school.

My intention was not to start a flame war between Berkeley and CLS partisans. (And I don't think that has happened ITT.) I am just trying to get all the information that I can right now. In about three months, I am going to have to make a major decision, and I am realizing how uninformed I am.

My decision process will, of course, involve more than posing questions on TLS. I'll visit the schools and talk to lawyers in different parts of the country. Occasionally, though, I find that people on TLS raise interesting points that I have not considered. I'm just fishing for different perspectives.




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