Berkeley Haters

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stratocophic
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby stratocophic » Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:08 pm

talibkweli wrote:their tepid lsat range makes me worry about the quality of class discussion. interesting backgrounds and great essays =/= intellectual horsepower.

there, i said it


*shakes head* Like kicking an ant colony.

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sirchristaylor
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby sirchristaylor » Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:24 pm

talibkweli wrote:
sirchristaylor wrote:
talibkweli wrote:their laughably tepid lsat range makes me worry about the quality of class discussion. interesting backgrounds and great essays =/= intellectual horsepower.

there, i said it


I laugh at you. :lol:


ad hominem attack + not having a sense of humor ftw?


Of course I have a sense of humor. That's why I'm still laughing at you! :lol: See? :lol: Have a sense of humor!

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Dignan
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby Dignan » Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:38 pm

deadatheist wrote:fwiw, i [strike]think[/strike] know there's a handful of people in academia who think the reason berkeley's grad programs are ranked so high is bc there are so many of them. there's what... ~30 berkeley grad programs ranked in the top 10 in their respective areas, more so than any other school - does that sound right? some think each program on its own may not be able to hold out such good rankings. don't necessarily buy that, but it is a sentiment out there.

I don't understand the argument/sentiment. Each graduate program is, of course, ranked in its own respective area. Are they saying that each program benefits from the exchange of ideas and sharing of resources with other programs? If that's true, it seems like an argument for Berkeley, not against it.

deadatheist
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby deadatheist » Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:06 pm

Dignan wrote:
deadatheist wrote:fwiw, i [strike]think[/strike] know there's a handful of people in academia who think the reason berkeley's grad programs are ranked so high is bc there are so many of them. there's what... ~30 berkeley grad programs ranked in the top 10 in their respective areas, more so than any other school - does that sound right? some think each program on its own may not be able to hold out such good rankings. don't necessarily buy that, but it is a sentiment out there.


I don't understand the argument/sentiment. Each graduate program is, of course, ranked in its own respective area. Are they saying that each program benefits from the exchange of ideas and sharing of resources with other programs? If that's true, it seems like an argument for Berkeley, not against it.


in a way it is an argument for berkeley, but it's a bit of a bash against some individual programs. i suppose some people think the programs actually aren't that great - they just get a boost for being part of berkeley (since berkeley already has so many highly ranked grad programs?). really, absurdly dumb analogy that comes to mind? "she'd probably be like a 6 in ny, but she's a 7 in scranton.”

please note though, these are just comments i've heard in passing when i worked in academia. not my view, not implying the comments were directed at the law school,and def doesn't explain berkeley hate as discussed per se. but maybe does convey a negative -probably minority- sentiment that i suppose is out there.

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The Brainalist
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby The Brainalist » Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:49 pm

1. Its University of California at Berkeley. I went to a UC (not one of the flagship ones) and I just am intrinsically not impressed by it. I don't get the rest of the nation's fascination with this public school except as it relates to the 60's, which has nothing to do with the giant public school it is now.

2. It can't even claim to be public as far as the law school goes, because of its desire to phase out in-state tuition. That was the best thing it had going for it. Otherwise, there are intrinsic benefits to attending an ivy-equivalent private school that can't be matched by a University of California. There is something additionally special about going to USC and Stanford that the UC's don't really have.

3. Other than the 60's and Jonathan Yoo, I can't plug in to anything great about berkeley's grads or its profs. No Supreme Court Justices, no presidents or high-level appointments (except Jonathan Yoo). It is ranked high, but there is no mystique.

4. Has been ranked as low as 13th in the last 10 years.

5. People's defense of it comes down to love of California or pure location, which, even as a californian, seems weak. Berkeley ain't that great, and it isn't IN San Francisco. The Bart is pretty weak, Berkeley can be mostly described as Oakland-adjacent, and housing is way overpriced. Most people overstate the attractiveness of the city of berkeley.

6. Defenders are the main proponents of the self-selection defense or the east-coast bias defense. They claim that poor placement in NLJ250 is either because people at berkeley would rather not work at those places, or there aren't that many of them in California. For a number of reasons I don't buy it, but I don't have time to write it all here. Lets just start with the fact that Stanford is in CA and has never had to raise the east-coast bias defense and leave it there for now.

7. Berkeley being tied with Chicago in the rankings seems a joke, for a lot of the above reasons, but for a lot of things that make Chicago a hot topic on these boards. It makes it a nice target to get knocked off a pedestal.

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im_blue
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby im_blue » Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:01 pm

The Brainalist wrote:1. Its University of California at Berkeley. I went to a UC (not one of the flagship ones) and I just am intrinsically not impressed by it. I don't get the rest of the nation's fascination with this public school except as it relates to the 60's, which has nothing to do with the giant public school it is now.

2. It can't even claim to be public as far as the law school goes, because of its desire to phase out in-state tuition. That was the best thing it had going for it. Otherwise, there are intrinsic benefits to attending an ivy-equivalent private school that can't be matched by a University of California. There is something additionally special about going to USC and Stanford that the UC's don't really have.

3. Other than the 60's and Jonathan Yoo, I can't plug in to anything great about berkeley's grads or its profs. No Supreme Court Justices, no presidents or high-level appointments (except Jonathan Yoo). It is ranked high, but there is no mystique.

4. Has been ranked as low as 13th in the last 10 years.

5. People's defense of it comes down to love of California or pure location, which, even as a californian, seems weak. Berkeley ain't that great, and it isn't IN San Francisco. The Bart is pretty weak, Berkeley can be mostly described as Oakland-adjacent, and housing is way overpriced. Most people overstate the attractiveness of the city of berkeley.

6. Defenders are the main proponents of the self-selection defense or the east-coast bias defense. They claim that poor placement in NLJ250 is either because people at berkeley would rather not work at those places, or there aren't that many of them in California. For a number of reasons I don't buy it, but I don't have time to write it all here. Lets just start with the fact that Stanford is in CA and has never had to raise the east-coast bias defense and leave it there for now.

7. Berkeley being tied with Chicago in the rankings seems a joke, for a lot of the above reasons, but for a lot of things that make Chicago a hot topic on these boards. It makes it a nice target to get knocked off a pedestal.


1. Yeah, everyone in California knows someone who went to Berkeley, so it's not exactly jaw-dropping.

3. To be fair, MVP don't have Supreme Court justices or presidents either.

4. Yes, and despite Berkeley's rapid ascent in USNWR, legal perception hasn't quite caught up.

5. Agreed, Stanford and UCLA have much better locations.

Tofu
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby Tofu » Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:16 pm

im_blue wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:1. Its University of California at Berkeley. I went to a UC (not one of the flagship ones) and I just am intrinsically not impressed by it. I don't get the rest of the nation's fascination with this public school except as it relates to the 60's, which has nothing to do with the giant public school it is now.

2. It can't even claim to be public as far as the law school goes, because of its desire to phase out in-state tuition. That was the best thing it had going for it. Otherwise, there are intrinsic benefits to attending an ivy-equivalent private school that can't be matched by a University of California. There is something additionally special about going to USC and Stanford that the UC's don't really have.

3. Other than the 60's and Jonathan Yoo, I can't plug in to anything great about berkeley's grads or its profs. No Supreme Court Justices, no presidents or high-level appointments (except Jonathan Yoo). It is ranked high, but there is no mystique.

4. Has been ranked as low as 13th in the last 10 years.

5. People's defense of it comes down to love of California or pure location, which, even as a californian, seems weak. Berkeley ain't that great, and it isn't IN San Francisco. The Bart is pretty weak, Berkeley can be mostly described as Oakland-adjacent, and housing is way overpriced. Most people overstate the attractiveness of the city of berkeley.

6. Defenders are the main proponents of the self-selection defense or the east-coast bias defense. They claim that poor placement in NLJ250 is either because people at berkeley would rather not work at those places, or there aren't that many of them in California. For a number of reasons I don't buy it, but I don't have time to write it all here. Lets just start with the fact that Stanford is in CA and has never had to raise the east-coast bias defense and leave it there for now.

7. Berkeley being tied with Chicago in the rankings seems a joke, for a lot of the above reasons, but for a lot of things that make Chicago a hot topic on these boards. It makes it a nice target to get knocked off a pedestal.


1. Yeah, everyone in California knows someone who went to Berkeley, so it's not exactly jaw-dropping.

3. To be fair, MVP don't have Supreme Court justices or presidents either.

4. Yes, and despite Berkeley's rapid ascent in USNWR, legal perception hasn't quite caught up.

5. Agreed, Stanford and UCLA have much better locations.


MVPB all have at least one sc justice, i think

jimmyd11011
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby jimmyd11011 » Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:33 pm

Tofu wrote:
im_blue wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:1. Its University of California at Berkeley. I went to a UC (not one of the flagship ones) and I just am intrinsically not impressed by it. I don't get the rest of the nation's fascination with this public school except as it relates to the 60's, which has nothing to do with the giant public school it is now.

2. It can't even claim to be public as far as the law school goes, because of its desire to phase out in-state tuition. That was the best thing it had going for it. Otherwise, there are intrinsic benefits to attending an ivy-equivalent private school that can't be matched by a University of California. There is something additionally special about going to USC and Stanford that the UC's don't really have.

3. Other than the 60's and Jonathan Yoo, I can't plug in to anything great about berkeley's grads or its profs. No Supreme Court Justices, no presidents or high-level appointments (except Jonathan Yoo). It is ranked high, but there is no mystique.

4. Has been ranked as low as 13th in the last 10 years.

5. People's defense of it comes down to love of California or pure location, which, even as a californian, seems weak. Berkeley ain't that great, and it isn't IN San Francisco. The Bart is pretty weak, Berkeley can be mostly described as Oakland-adjacent, and housing is way overpriced. Most people overstate the attractiveness of the city of berkeley.

6. Defenders are the main proponents of the self-selection defense or the east-coast bias defense. They claim that poor placement in NLJ250 is either because people at berkeley would rather not work at those places, or there aren't that many of them in California. For a number of reasons I don't buy it, but I don't have time to write it all here. Lets just start with the fact that Stanford is in CA and has never had to raise the east-coast bias defense and leave it there for now.

7. Berkeley being tied with Chicago in the rankings seems a joke, for a lot of the above reasons, but for a lot of things that make Chicago a hot topic on these boards. It makes it a nice target to get knocked off a pedestal.


1. Yeah, everyone in California knows someone who went to Berkeley, so it's not exactly jaw-dropping.

3. To be fair, MVP don't have Supreme Court justices or presidents either.

4. Yes, and despite Berkeley's rapid ascent in USNWR, legal perception hasn't quite caught up.

5. Agreed, Stanford and UCLA have much better locations.


MVPB all have at least one sc justice, i think


Ever heard of Chief Justice Earl Warren?

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Dignan
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby Dignan » Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:39 pm

jimmyd11011 wrote:
Tofu wrote:
im_blue wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:1. Its University of California at Berkeley. I went to a UC (not one of the flagship ones) and I just am intrinsically not impressed by it. I don't get the rest of the nation's fascination with this public school except as it relates to the 60's, which has nothing to do with the giant public school it is now.

2. It can't even claim to be public as far as the law school goes, because of its desire to phase out in-state tuition. That was the best thing it had going for it. Otherwise, there are intrinsic benefits to attending an ivy-equivalent private school that can't be matched by a University of California. There is something additionally special about going to USC and Stanford that the UC's don't really have.

3. Other than the 60's and Jonathan Yoo, I can't plug in to anything great about berkeley's grads or its profs. No Supreme Court Justices, no presidents or high-level appointments (except Jonathan Yoo). It is ranked high, but there is no mystique.

4. Has been ranked as low as 13th in the last 10 years.

5. People's defense of it comes down to love of California or pure location, which, even as a californian, seems weak. Berkeley ain't that great, and it isn't IN San Francisco. The Bart is pretty weak, Berkeley can be mostly described as Oakland-adjacent, and housing is way overpriced. Most people overstate the attractiveness of the city of berkeley.

6. Defenders are the main proponents of the self-selection defense or the east-coast bias defense. They claim that poor placement in NLJ250 is either because people at berkeley would rather not work at those places, or there aren't that many of them in California. For a number of reasons I don't buy it, but I don't have time to write it all here. Lets just start with the fact that Stanford is in CA and has never had to raise the east-coast bias defense and leave it there for now.

7. Berkeley being tied with Chicago in the rankings seems a joke, for a lot of the above reasons, but for a lot of things that make Chicago a hot topic on these boards. It makes it a nice target to get knocked off a pedestal.


1. Yeah, everyone in California knows someone who went to Berkeley, so it's not exactly jaw-dropping.

3. To be fair, MVP don't have Supreme Court justices or presidents either.

4. Yes, and despite Berkeley's rapid ascent in USNWR, legal perception hasn't quite caught up.

5. Agreed, Stanford and UCLA have much better locations.


MVPB all have at least one sc justice, i think


Ever heard of Chief Justice Earl Warren?

Thank you. Yeah, no one of note has graduated from Berkeley, except for a guy who happens to be the most famous supreme court justice of the 20th century.

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Borhas
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby Borhas » Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:08 am

These threads bring out the worst this community has to offer

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rayiner
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby rayiner » Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:18 am

jimmyd11011 wrote:
Tofu wrote:
im_blue wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:1. Its University of California at Berkeley. I went to a UC (not one of the flagship ones) and I just am intrinsically not impressed by it. I don't get the rest of the nation's fascination with this public school except as it relates to the 60's, which has nothing to do with the giant public school it is now.

2. It can't even claim to be public as far as the law school goes, because of its desire to phase out in-state tuition. That was the best thing it had going for it. Otherwise, there are intrinsic benefits to attending an ivy-equivalent private school that can't be matched by a University of California. There is something additionally special about going to USC and Stanford that the UC's don't really have.

3. Other than the 60's and Jonathan Yoo, I can't plug in to anything great about berkeley's grads or its profs. No Supreme Court Justices, no presidents or high-level appointments (except Jonathan Yoo). It is ranked high, but there is no mystique.

4. Has been ranked as low as 13th in the last 10 years.

5. People's defense of it comes down to love of California or pure location, which, even as a californian, seems weak. Berkeley ain't that great, and it isn't IN San Francisco. The Bart is pretty weak, Berkeley can be mostly described as Oakland-adjacent, and housing is way overpriced. Most people overstate the attractiveness of the city of berkeley.

6. Defenders are the main proponents of the self-selection defense or the east-coast bias defense. They claim that poor placement in NLJ250 is either because people at berkeley would rather not work at those places, or there aren't that many of them in California. For a number of reasons I don't buy it, but I don't have time to write it all here. Lets just start with the fact that Stanford is in CA and has never had to raise the east-coast bias defense and leave it there for now.

7. Berkeley being tied with Chicago in the rankings seems a joke, for a lot of the above reasons, but for a lot of things that make Chicago a hot topic on these boards. It makes it a nice target to get knocked off a pedestal.


1. Yeah, everyone in California knows someone who went to Berkeley, so it's not exactly jaw-dropping.

3. To be fair, MVP don't have Supreme Court justices or presidents either.

4. Yes, and despite Berkeley's rapid ascent in USNWR, legal perception hasn't quite caught up.

5. Agreed, Stanford and UCLA have much better locations.


MVPB all have at least one sc justice, i think


Ever heard of Chief Justice Earl Warren?


Pwnt.

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ShibaDan
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby ShibaDan » Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:30 am

I actually haven't heard much hating on Berk, much more on Cornell and G-town, which is to be expected given they are at the bottom of the T14 and most people here have an HYS or bust attitude.

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James Bond
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby James Bond » Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:36 am

vanwinkle wrote:I always figured it was all the unbathed hippies.


TITCR

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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby rookhawk » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:04 am

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Last edited by rookhawk on Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

fortissimo
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby fortissimo » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:12 am

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Last edited by fortissimo on Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

fortissimo
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby fortissimo » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:14 am

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Last edited by fortissimo on Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

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los blancos
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby los blancos » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:14 am

Berk <3

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daesonesb
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby daesonesb » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:16 am

The Brainalist wrote:5. People's defense of it comes down to love of California or pure location, which, even as a californian, seems weak. Berkeley ain't that great, and it isn't IN San Francisco. The Bart is pretty weak, Berkeley can be mostly described as Oakland-adjacent, and housing is way overpriced. Most people overstate the attractiveness of the city of berkeley.


I went there, and thought that berkeley was a pretty awesome city. I'd love to live there.

Tofu
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby Tofu » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:19 am

fortissimo wrote:Michigan Law graduated Supreme Court justices William Day Rufus, Frank Murphy, and George Sutherland....


wiliam rufus day, but yeah

i didn't feel like listing MVPBs' justices haha

fortissimo
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby fortissimo » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:21 am

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Last edited by fortissimo on Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

LSlobbyist
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby LSlobbyist » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:28 am

.
Last edited by LSlobbyist on Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Aeon
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby Aeon » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:35 am

Considering that Ken is a Boalt alumnus, I'd think there's actually a decent pro-Berkeley contingent here on TLS. 8)

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crackberry
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby crackberry » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:03 pm

While I agree that Berkeley's ranking seems a bit inflated (I think it is firmly below HYSCC but on par with NYU and MVP), I absolutely love the school. People on here who think its grad programs' rankings are inflated know nothing and all the California haters are just resorting to inane ad hominem attacks that have little to no relevance on this discussion. New Haven sucks. No one is bashing Yale. Morons.

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Tangerine Gleam
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby Tangerine Gleam » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:08 pm

jimmyd11011 wrote:
Ever heard of Chief Justice Earl Warren?


+1. Changed America forever; no big deal.

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The Brainalist
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby The Brainalist » Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:39 pm

crackberry wrote:While I agree that Berkeley's ranking seems a bit inflated (I think it is firmly below HYSCC but on par with NYU and MVP), I absolutely love the school. People on here who think its grad programs' rankings are inflated know nothing and all the California haters are just resorting to inane ad hominem attacks that have little to no relevance on this discussion. New Haven sucks. No one is bashing Yale. Morons.


This has to be my favorite kind of arguing that takes place on TLS.

Thanks for the Warren reminder. It does actually help me have a more positive image of berkeley in my mind (although I still don't have any good recent affiliations other than Yoo).

I'm not saying Berkeley sucks, I'm just saying its overhyped and oversold. Berkeley's pretty nice, but not hands down the best place ever. At the end of the day, there are great things to be said about living in NY, Chicago, DC, and Boston. There are great things to be said about schools located in San Francisco, which Berkeley is not. But for certain people, it isn't even a question worth exploring: Could there be some value in leaving your nest in California and living in another major metropolitan city for a couple years? It is as if berkeley lovers have joined some kind of cult and can't be reasoned with. ITT, for example, 2/3 of berkeley's favorable arguments go like this: <3 [end rationale].




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