Berkeley Haters

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WellNow
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby WellNow » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:36 pm

The Brainalist wrote:
WellNow wrote:

Just so you know, the USNWR world rank is one of the most absolute nonsense numbers there out of all the USNWR numbers. Have you looked at its methodology? For example, how is that Berkeley is number 6 on the Academic Ranking of World Universities (the go to source for international comparisons) and 39 on USNWR even though it has a reputation score of 99 out of a 100? Its because the ranking numbers are largely determined by things like number of international students attending and number of international faculty. How important do you think things like that are?


Not really important at all. It serves no purpose than to show that people can arrive at different conclusions. I don't buy that USNWR is very good either. Just one of many things to consider. I like any ranking that undermines USNWR. I like that Stanford looks better than Yale in the NLJ, for example. Every top school has something to offer. Berkeley is an amazing school across the board. I just take issue with the black and white characterization that anything different = stupid.


I think we can agree that this, like most ranking arguments, is a stupid argument. But just for my own sanity, are you really trying to say that you weren't asserting in all your above posts that chicago is better than berkeley and excoriating anyone who disagreed with you?

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crackberry
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby crackberry » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:43 pm

The Brainalist wrote:
crackberry wrote:Your typical CalTech student is a better engineer than your typical Stanford student (but probably not much better than your typical Stanford engineer). But your typical Stanford student is a much better writer/analytical thinker, etc. than your typical CalTech student. The two schools are so different that it basically makes no sense to compare them. But Stanford is a better overall university than CalTech. That is an objective fact.

Yes, if you give disproportionate weight to UG, then Chicago > Berkeley (though Berkeley is a damn good UG and the best public UG in the country for sure). But the true measure of a university is not UG. It's grad programs. When you include those, Berkeley kicks Chicago's ass.


I think your facts are subjective. You place equal value on liberal arts, maybe I do not. There was an LSAT chart that showed science majors doing better on the LSAT than liberal arts majors, so for what we intend to do, it could be that this kind of intelligence is pretty useful, but only if you buy into the LSAT/good-lawyer correlation.

I also place a lot of value on the UG rep, because I believe I will be associated with those students in a very general way with my law degree. Totally subjective, but I think valid.

Part of my point is that Stanford has better science and math departments than CalTech. The only area in which CalTech is better is engineering, which is distinct from science and math.

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The Brainalist
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby The Brainalist » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:46 pm

WellNow wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:
WellNow wrote:

Just so you know, the USNWR world rank is one of the most absolute nonsense numbers there out of all the USNWR numbers. Have you looked at its methodology? For example, how is that Berkeley is number 6 on the Academic Ranking of World Universities (the go to source for international comparisons) and 39 on USNWR even though it has a reputation score of 99 out of a 100? Its because the ranking numbers are largely determined by things like number of international students attending and number of international faculty. How important do you think things like that are?


Not really important at all. It serves no purpose than to show that people can arrive at different conclusions. I don't buy that USNWR is very good either. Just one of many things to consider. I like any ranking that undermines USNWR. I like that Stanford looks better than Yale in the NLJ, for example. Every top school has something to offer. Berkeley is an amazing school across the board. I just take issue with the black and white characterization that anything different = stupid.


I think we can agree that this, like most ranking arguments, is a stupid argument. But just for my own sanity, are you really trying to say that you weren't asserting in all your above posts that chicago is better than berkeley and excoriating anyone who disagreed with you?


I never "excoriated" anyone. People here have been pretty harsh. I've been pretty consistent that I have a hard time getting past Berkeley's UG, and I think Berkeley is a nice area, just not as good as people try and sell it. I also feel disenfranchised by its tuition raises. Otherwise, the law school is comparable to other T6 schools, but on weight the private schools win out. I don't think these ideas are too out there, but apparently, in the mature and restrained words of people on this board, I'm a functionally retarded idiot. Well, I'm pretty comfortable with my intellect, so whatever. I'm not trying to win you awesome people over anyways.

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UnitarySpace
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby UnitarySpace » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:48 pm

I think Berkeley is a nice area, just not as good as people try and sell it.


Totally agree. The city of Berkeley is disgusting and you get used to the weather real quick.
Last edited by UnitarySpace on Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Dignan
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby Dignan » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:49 pm

The Brainalist wrote:
Dignan wrote:The Brainalist is either (a) a mediocre troll or (b) incredibly stupid.

I used to think (a), but this recent exchange is making me lean towards (b).


MORE PLEASE. Please show us you true character.


When I wrote my post, I was annoyed because it seemed to me that you were distorting others' arguments and willfully misreading data. Still, I was uncivil and I apologize. Although I remain underwhelmed by the quality of your arguments, I should not have suggested that you were stupid. I'm sorry.

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The Brainalist
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby The Brainalist » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:50 pm

crackberry wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:
crackberry wrote:Your typical CalTech student is a better engineer than your typical Stanford student (but probably not much better than your typical Stanford engineer). But your typical Stanford student is a much better writer/analytical thinker, etc. than your typical CalTech student. The two schools are so different that it basically makes no sense to compare them. But Stanford is a better overall university than CalTech. That is an objective fact.

Yes, if you give disproportionate weight to UG, then Chicago > Berkeley (though Berkeley is a damn good UG and the best public UG in the country for sure). But the true measure of a university is not UG. It's grad programs. When you include those, Berkeley kicks Chicago's ass.


I think your facts are subjective. You place equal value on liberal arts, maybe I do not. There was an LSAT chart that showed science majors doing better on the LSAT than liberal arts majors, so for what we intend to do, it could be that this kind of intelligence is pretty useful, but only if you buy into the LSAT/good-lawyer correlation.

I also place a lot of value on the UG rep, because I believe I will be associated with those students in a very general way with my law degree. Totally subjective, but I think valid.

Part of my point is that Stanford has better science and math departments than CalTech. The only area in which CalTech is better is engineering, which is distinct from science and math.


Stanford may. It isn't where they film Big Bang Theory or Numbers, so I'll stick with Cal Tech.

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BioEBear2010
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby BioEBear2010 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:52 pm

It's simply a fact that Berkeley's graduate programs are among the best in the world. What is debatable, though, is the strength of Berkeley as an undergraduate institution. Because Cal is a state school, it is required by law to cater to California residents. As a result, the school is larger than most (all?) elite privates, and the overall strength of the student body suffers. I would contest, though, that the top students at Berkeley are comparable to the top students at any other university.

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crackberry
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby crackberry » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:57 pm

Listen, Brainalist, you and I clearly disagree over the importance of UG to an overall university's reputation and importance/prestige/etc. I happen to think UG is only one of many factors to consider when thinking about the quality of an overall university. In fact, in many ways, I think it is the least important factor. As such, I happen to believe that Berkeley is in the top tier of universities in the United States (with Harvard and Stanford). For the people who've asked, I think places like Columbia, Penn, Yale and Princeton are in the second tier. All of those schools have great UGs and some phenomenal grad programs, but they just don't have exceptional programs across the board the way Stanford, Harvard and Berkeley do.

I suppose one could make the argument that it should be Stanford and Harvard ahead of Berkeley because of UCB's lack of a medical school, but that argument sort of fails when you take into account Harvard's dismal engineering programs.

MIT and CalTech are incredible engineering schools. The two best in the country, probably the world. But they can't compete with Harvard, Stanford or Berkeley because of the lack of respectable social science and liberal arts programs (not to mention not having law or medical schools). I understand the argument that MIT and CalTech UG attract some of the brightest minds in the world, but they simply are not on par with the world's great research universities because they are so limited in scope.

I agree that ad hominem attacks are dumb and I shouldn't have resorted to them. I do not agree with you in the slightest, but I should have shown more restraint.

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The Brainalist
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby The Brainalist » Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:00 pm

Dignan wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:
Dignan wrote:The Brainalist is either (a) a mediocre troll or (b) incredibly stupid.

I used to think (a), but this recent exchange is making me lean towards (b).


MORE PLEASE. Please show us you true character.


When I wrote my post, I was annoyed because it seemed to me that you were distorting others' arguments and willfully misreading data. Still, I was uncivil and I apologize. Although I remain underwhelmed by the quality of your arguments, I should not have suggested that you were stupid. I'm sorry.


Accepted. I'm not trying that hard to make quality arguments, nor do I think trying to convince people to think exactly the way I do to be a worthwhile pursuit on these boards. So you are free to remain underwhelmed without fear of retaliation from me.

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Kronk
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby Kronk » Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:02 pm

Berkeley and Stanford are the most well-rounded schools in the nation for undergrad and graduate studies. Period.

/thread

09042014
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby 09042014 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:02 pm

los blancos wrote:
fortissimo wrote:Midwest

Harvard
Yale
Stanford
Michigan
Notre Dame


lulz @ Michigan or Notre Dame being held above UChicago and Northwestern in the Midwest


To be fair if we are talking lay prestige nobody knows what UChicago is, even in Chicago.

Its really embarrassing. Though anyone who knows much about academics really places a high value on UChicago. But said person would then look down at ND for being overrated.

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Kronk
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby Kronk » Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:03 pm

I should add that for the graduate studies in liberal arts, Berkeley is BY FAR more impressive than any other school in the USA.

09042014
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby 09042014 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:03 pm

Kronk wrote:Berkeley and Stanford are the most well-rounded schools in the nation for undergrad and graduate studies. Period.

/thread


I think UCB is overrated, but Stanford would be my dream university. Ugrad, engineering grad, even law.

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Kronk
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby Kronk » Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:04 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Kronk wrote:Berkeley and Stanford are the most well-rounded schools in the nation for undergrad and graduate studies. Period.

/thread


I think UCB is overrated, but Stanford would be my dream university. Ugrad, engineering grad, even law.


Wanna link me to something that might suggest Berkeley is overrated in any way?

We're not talking about BoalTTT right now, btw.

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Kronk
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby Kronk » Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:04 pm

Best engineering schools from USNWR:

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... s/rankings

1. MIT
2. Stanford
3. Berkeley

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The Brainalist
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby The Brainalist » Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:07 pm

crackberry wrote:Listen, Brainalist, you and I clearly disagree over the importance of UG to an overall university's reputation and importance/prestige/etc. I happen to think UG is only one of many factors to consider when thinking about the quality of an overall university. In fact, in many ways, I think it is the least important factor. As such, I happen to believe that Berkeley is in the top tier of universities in the United States (with Harvard and Stanford). For the people who've asked, I think places like Columbia, Penn, Yale and Princeton are in the second tier. All of those schools have great UGs and some phenomenal grad programs, but they just don't have exceptional programs across the board the way Stanford, Harvard and Berkeley do.

I suppose one could make the argument that it should be Stanford and Harvard ahead of Berkeley because of UCB's lack of a medical school, but that argument sort of fails when you take into account Harvard's dismal engineering programs.

MIT and CalTech are incredible engineering schools. The two best in the country, probably the world. But they can't compete with Harvard, Stanford or Berkeley because of the lack of respectable social science and liberal arts programs (not to mention not having law or medical schools). I understand the argument that MIT and CalTech UG attract some of the brightest minds in the world, but they simply are not on par with the world's great research universities because they are so limited in scope.

I agree that ad hominem attacks are dumb and I shouldn't have resorted to them. I do not agree with you in the slightest, but I should have shown more restraint.


If you had gone to Berkeley, you would have learned more restraint. Stanford is number 51 in the world for restraint.

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BioEBear2010
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby BioEBear2010 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:09 pm

Kronk wrote:1. MIT
2. Stanford
3. Berkeley

That's pretty much the ranking for every single math/science discipline. These three schools dominate those fields.

And if you replace MIT with Harvard and Yale, you pretty much have the rankings for the humanities!

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bilbobaggins
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby bilbobaggins » Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:09 pm

A few things:

UCSF and Berkeley have cross-over curriculum and are very closely linked when it comes to the Med School. Berkeley has a clinical program that overlaps with the UCSF med school. I knows people in these programs, so any BS about what I've just said will be firmly rejected.

Rankings are generally stupid. Making a big deal about them is also stupid. But, if you're going to engage in it, be ready for some facts that firmly support UCB over Caltech or Chicago. There are some worldwide rankings that come out with UCB on top:

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.c ... id=4339960

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEEACT_-_P ... 8Top_50.29

There are others that come out with Caltech of Chicago on top.

It's really a dumb argument either way and it seems to be coming from someone who is insecure about his or her not getting into Boalt and perhaps going to Caltech as an UG. You also seem insecure about being a science major.

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Kronk
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby Kronk » Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:10 pm

Brainalist knows that Berkeley has the top public undergrad in the nation, right?

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crackberry
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby crackberry » Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:10 pm

I seriously think people believe Berkeley is overrated simply because it is a public school. Maybe some of you will disagree, but I think it is latent anti-public school bias that is informing many of the anti-Berkeley opinions out there.

09042014
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby 09042014 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:11 pm

Kronk wrote:Best engineering schools from USNWR:

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... s/rankings

1. MIT
2. Stanford
3. Berkeley


UCB shouldn't be the number three engineering school.

Yes this is rampant UIUC trolling.

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Kronk
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby Kronk » Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:12 pm

BioEBear2010 wrote:
Kronk wrote:1. MIT
2. Stanford
3. Berkeley

That's pretty much the ranking for every single math/science discipline. These three schools dominate those fields.

And if you replace MIT with Harvard and Yale, you pretty much have the rankings for the humanities!


True--which makes it all the more impressive that Berkeley / Stanford qualify for both.

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BioEBear2010
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby BioEBear2010 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:13 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Kronk wrote:Best engineering schools from USNWR:

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... s/rankings

1. MIT
2. Stanford
3. Berkeley


UCB shouldn't be the number three engineering school.

Yes this is rampant UIUC trolling.

UIUC is synonymous with EECS. Berkeley is better in more fields. Blatant UCB defending :)

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Kronk
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby Kronk » Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:14 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Kronk wrote:Best engineering schools from USNWR:

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... s/rankings

1. MIT
2. Stanford
3. Berkeley


UCB shouldn't be the number three engineering school.

Yes this is rampant UIUC trolling.


Just stop ;). Everyone knows that people who hate Berkeley are either A.) Stanford / UCLA / USC students or B.) in denial.

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crackberry
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby crackberry » Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:17 pm

Kronk wrote:Just stop ;). Everyone knows that people who hate Berkeley are either A.) Stanford / UCLA / USC students or B.) in denial.

Hi!




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