Berkeley Haters

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The Brainalist
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby The Brainalist » Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:52 pm

crackberry wrote:Look, I don't love Berkeley. I went to Stanford for Christ's sake. I'm supposed to HATE Berkeley.

But anyone who thinks Berkeley is not a top 3 overall university in the U.S. is seriously delusional.

Seriously, compare any university other than Harvard or Stanford to Berkeley and you understand how fucking awesome UCB is overall.

Anyone who thinks Chicago > Berkeley as an overall university has his head in the sand. It's as simple as that.


For graduate schools, the two seem pretty comparable, with berkeley being better in some and Chicago at others. My biggest problem is Berkeley's UG, which is substantially worse. If you look at USNWR for UG, Chicago is a Top 10 school, where berkeley is in the 20-30 range. Yes, Berkeley is the GW of undergrads. If you look at the world rankings in USNWR, Chicago is a top 5 school, where Berkeley is number 39 (I think this is more of a general perception type ranking, which would account for the school as a whole). Being from California, Chicago wasn't even on my radar, so I get that we don't have a sense of it as being prestigious, but Californians are unreasonably insular and we tend to think everything in our state is the best. But, we are also more public-school proud, so much so that we tend to over look that there is a lot of value to small private schools like Cal Tech. I can ask 10 people in california where Cal Tech is located and I bet you that 8 of them won't even know. Yet, there can be little doubt that it is a more impressive credential for UG and for its grad programs than berkeley and probably stanford. It just operates on a different level. Yet, we have no sense of that as Californians.

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crackberry
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby crackberry » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:02 pm

For once and for all (and I'm only listing Top 25 programs):

Chicago:

Law - T6
Business - T5
Medicine - T13
Education - N/A
Engineering - N/A
Biological Sciences - T18
Earth Sciences - T15
Math - T6
Chemistry - T12
Computer Science - T39
Physics - T8
Political Science - T11
Economics - T1
English - T7
Psychology - T23
History - T5
Sociology - T5
Public Policy - 7

Berkeley:

Law - T6
Business - 7
Medicine - N/A (or 5 if you count UCSF)
Education - T7
Engineering - 3
Biological Sciences - T2
Earth Sciences - 4
Math - T2
Chemistry - T1
Computer Science - T1
Physics - T3
Political Science - 6
Economics - T6
English - 1
Psychology - T1
History - T1
Sociology - 1
Public Policy - 2

Final Count of Top 10 programs:

Berkeley: 17 (or 18 if you include UCSF Medical School)
Chicago: 9

Top 5 programs:

Berkeley: 12 (or 13 if you include UCSF Medical School)
Chicago: 4

Areas where Chicago > Berkeley: 2 (or 3 if you don't include UCSF Medical School, in which case Berkeley has no medical school)
Areas where Berkeley > Chicago: 14 (or 15 if you include UCSF Medical School)
Ties: 1 (Law)

You do the math.

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UnitarySpace
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby UnitarySpace » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:03 pm

Yet, there can be little doubt that it [Caltech] is a more impressive credential for UG and for its [b]grad programs[\b] than berkeley and probably stanford


False. Try again.

Edit: What Crackberry says.
Last edited by UnitarySpace on Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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crackberry
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby crackberry » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:03 pm

The Brainalist wrote:
crackberry wrote:Look, I don't love Berkeley. I went to Stanford for Christ's sake. I'm supposed to HATE Berkeley.

But anyone who thinks Berkeley is not a top 3 overall university in the U.S. is seriously delusional.

Seriously, compare any university other than Harvard or Stanford to Berkeley and you understand how fucking awesome UCB is overall.

Anyone who thinks Chicago > Berkeley as an overall university has his head in the sand. It's as simple as that.


For graduate schools, the two seem pretty comparable, with berkeley being better in some and Chicago at others. My biggest problem is Berkeley's UG, which is substantially worse. If you look at USNWR for UG, Chicago is a Top 10 school, where berkeley is in the 20-30 range. Yes, Berkeley is the GW of undergrads. If you look at the world rankings in USNWR, Chicago is a top 5 school, where Berkeley is number 39 (I think this is more of a general perception type ranking, which would account for the school as a whole). Being from California, Chicago wasn't even on my radar, so I get that we don't have a sense of it as being prestigious, but Californians are unreasonably insular and we tend to think everything in our state is the best. But, we are also more public-school proud, so much so that we tend to over look that there is a lot of value to small private schools like Cal Tech. I can ask 10 people in california where Cal Tech is located and I bet you that 8 of them won't even know. Yet, there can be little doubt that it is a more impressive credential for UG and for its grad programs than berkeley and probably stanford. It just operates on a different level. Yet, we have no sense of that as Californians.

Yeah, you're right. CalTech law, medicine, business, history, English, economics, psychology, chemistry, physics, math, political science, public policy >>> Stanford and Berkeley. Totally sound argument.

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crackberry
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby crackberry » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:05 pm

The Brainalist wrote:Yet, there can be little doubt that it is a more impressive credential for UG than stanford.

Wow. You're functionally retarded.

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The Brainalist
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby The Brainalist » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:06 pm

crackberry wrote:For once and for all (and I'm only listing Top 25 programs):

Chicago:

Law - T6
Business - T5
Medicine - T13
Education - N/A
Engineering - N/A
Biological Sciences - T18
Earth Sciences - T15
Math - T6
Chemistry - T12
Computer Science - T39
Physics - T8
Political Science - T11
Economics - T1
English - T7
Psychology - T23
History - T5
Sociology - T5
Public Policy - 7

Berkeley:

Law - T6
Business - 7
Medicine - N/A (or 5 if you count UCSF)
Education - T7
Engineering - 3
Biological Sciences - T2
Earth Sciences - 4
Math - T2
Chemistry - T1
Computer Science - T1
Physics - T3
Political Science - 6
Economics - T6
English - 1
Psychology - T1
History - T1
Sociology - 1
Public Policy - 2

Final Count of Top 10 programs:

Berkeley: 17 (or 18 if you include UCSF Medical School)
Chicago: 9

Top 5 programs:

Berkeley: 12 (or 13 if you include UCSF Medical School)
Chicago: 4

Areas where Chicago > Berkeley: 2 (or 3 if you don't include UCSF Medical School, in which case Berkeley has no medical school)
Areas where Berkeley > Chicago: 14 (or 15 if you include UCSF Medical School)
Ties: 1 (Law)

You do the math.


So you take the world rank of 39 and UG rank of 21 for Berkeley out of the equation? You also want to count UCSF as Berkeley's med school? That seems fair.

Also, the larger schools are always going to win out if you go all the way across every single ranking. Small schools just aren't going to have the critical mass.

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kittenmittons
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby kittenmittons » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:07 pm

To be fair, no one cares.

hth

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The Brainalist
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby The Brainalist » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:08 pm

crackberry wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:Yet, there can be little doubt that it is a more impressive credential for UG than stanford.

Wow. You're functionally retarded.


I'm actually pretty smart, but I don't feel like touting myself on this board or making personal attacks.

Cal Tech is a better school. Duh, it doesn't have a law school. Neither does Princeton. Get over yourselves.

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crackberry
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby crackberry » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:10 pm

The Brainalist wrote:So you take the world rank of 39 and UG rank of 21 for Berkeley out of the equation? You also want to count UCSF as Berkeley's med school? That seems fair.

Also, the larger schools are always going to win out if you go all the way across every single ranking. Small schools just aren't going to have the critical mass.

You are insufferable. In no way did I pretend to include UCSF as Berkeley's Med School. Every single place I mention Med School I use that caveat. Ok, include UG. Berkeley is by nature screwed because it's public, but even if you include UG, it is clear Berkeley >>>>>>>>>>> Chicago. Don't try to pretend otherwise.

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crackberry
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby crackberry » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:11 pm

The Brainalist wrote:
crackberry wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:Yet, there can be little doubt that it is a more impressive credential for UG than stanford.

Wow. You're functionally retarded.


I'm actually pretty smart, but I don't feel like touting myself on this board or making personal attacks.

Cal Tech is a better school. Duh, it doesn't have a law school. Neither does Princeton. Get over yourselves.

The point is CalTech doesn't have ANYTHING except for engineering. At least MIT has Sloan. CalTech is NOT A BETTER SCHOOL THAN STANFORD. I maintain that you are an idiot.

daviddel03
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby daviddel03 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:12 pm

seriously...

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The Brainalist
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby The Brainalist » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:12 pm

crackberry wrote:For once and for all (and I'm only listing Top 25 programs):

Chicago:

Law - T6
Business - T5
Medicine - T13
Education - N/A
Engineering - N/A
Biological Sciences - T18
Earth Sciences - T15
Math - T6
Chemistry - T12
Computer Science - T39
Physics - T8
Political Science - T11
Economics - T1
English - T7
Psychology - T23
History - T5
Sociology - T5
Public Policy - 7

Berkeley:

Law - T6
Business - 7
Medicine - N/A (or 5 if you count UCSF)
Education - T7
Engineering - 3
Biological Sciences - T2
Earth Sciences - 4
Math - T2
Chemistry - T1
Computer Science - T1
Physics - T3
Political Science - 6
Economics - T6
English - 1
Psychology - T1
History - T1
Sociology - 1
Public Policy - 2

Final Count of Top 10 programs:

Berkeley: 17 (or 18 if you include UCSF Medical School)
Chicago: 9

Top 5 programs:

Berkeley: 12 (or 13 if you include UCSF Medical School)
Chicago: 4

Areas where Chicago > Berkeley: 2 (or 3 if you don't include UCSF Medical School, in which case Berkeley has no medical school)
Areas where Berkeley > Chicago: 14 (or 15 if you include UCSF Medical School)
Ties: 1 (Law)

You do the math.

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crackberry
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby crackberry » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:14 pm

Edited for Brainialist

Chicago:

UG: T8
Law - T6
Business - T5
Medicine - T13
Education - N/A
Engineering - N/A
Biological Sciences - T18
Earth Sciences - T15
Math - T6
Chemistry - T12
Computer Science - T39
Physics - T8
Political Science - T11
Economics - T1
English - T7
Psychology - T23
History - T5
Sociology - T5
Public Policy - 7

Berkeley:

UG: 21
Law - T6
Business - 7
Medicine - N/A
Education - T7
Engineering - 3
Biological Sciences - T2
Earth Sciences - 4
Math - T2
Chemistry - T1
Computer Science - T1
Physics - T3
Political Science - 6
Economics - T6
English - 1
Psychology - T1
History - T1
Sociology - 1
Public Policy - 2

Final Count of Top 10 programs:

Berkeley: 17
Chicago: 10

Top 5 programs:

Berkeley: 12
Chicago: 4

Areas where Chicago > Berkeley: 4
Areas where Berkeley > Chicago: 14
Ties: 1 (Law)

You do the math.

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The Brainalist
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby The Brainalist » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:16 pm

crackberry wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:
crackberry wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:Yet, there can be little doubt that it is a more impressive credential for UG than stanford.

Wow. You're functionally retarded.


I'm actually pretty smart, but I don't feel like touting myself on this board or making personal attacks.

Cal Tech is a better school. Duh, it doesn't have a law school. Neither does Princeton. Get over yourselves.

The point is CalTech doesn't have ANYTHING except for engineering. At least MIT has Sloan. CalTech is NOT A BETTER SCHOOL THAN STANFORD. I maintain that you are an idiot.


You consistently prove that you are a better person.

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crackberry
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby crackberry » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:17 pm

The Brainalist wrote:You consistently prove that you are a better person.

The two schools you troll hardest against are two of the best three schools in the nation. I can prove this if you'd like. I really hope this helps.

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Dignan
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby Dignan » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:18 pm

The Brainalist is either (a) a mediocre troll or (b) incredibly stupid.

I used to think (a), but this recent exchange is making me lean towards (b).

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The Brainalist
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby The Brainalist » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:19 pm

Dignan wrote:The Brainalist is either (a) a mediocre troll or (b) incredibly stupid.

I used to think (a), but this recent exchange is making me lean towards (b).



MORE PLEASE. Please show us you true character.

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crackberry
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby crackberry » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:22 pm

The Brainalist wrote:
Dignan wrote:The Brainalist is either (a) a mediocre troll or (b) incredibly stupid.

I used to think (a), but this recent exchange is making me lean towards (b).



MORE PLEASE. Please show us you true character.

Dude, seriously. Look at the numbers. Are you really attempting to make the argument that Chicago is better than or even close to tied with Berkeley? How else do you explain the vast gulf in Top 10 and Top 5 programs? Are you putting disproportionate weight on UG, business and economics (the only three areas where Chicago > Berkeley)?

And seriously, can you please explain to me how CalTech — which lacks any sort of respectable non-engineering programs — is a better overall university than Stanford? Please.

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The Brainalist
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby The Brainalist » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:24 pm

crackberry wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:You consistently prove that you are a better person.

The two schools you troll hardest against are two of the best three schools in the nation. I can prove this if you'd like. I really hope this helps.


Berkeley is number 21 and 39. And, it graduates by far more people with the #21 UG than it does anything else. I'm not buying what they are selling. I really hope this helps.

What is the second school? I think Stanford is probably the best school for pretty much any program it offers, including law. I just happen to think that your typical student at Cal Tech is smarter than your typical student at almost anywhere except maybe MIT.

WellNow
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby WellNow » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:24 pm

The Brainalist wrote:
crackberry wrote:For once and for all (and I'm only listing Top 25 programs):

Chicago:

Law - T6
Business - T5
Medicine - T13
Education - N/A
Engineering - N/A
Biological Sciences - T18
Earth Sciences - T15
Math - T6
Chemistry - T12
Computer Science - T39
Physics - T8
Political Science - T11
Economics - T1
English - T7
Psychology - T23
History - T5
Sociology - T5
Public Policy - 7

Berkeley:

Law - T6
Business - 7
Medicine - N/A (or 5 if you count UCSF)
Education - T7
Engineering - 3
Biological Sciences - T2
Earth Sciences - 4
Math - T2
Chemistry - T1
Computer Science - T1
Physics - T3
Political Science - 6
Economics - T6
English - 1
Psychology - T1
History - T1
Sociology - 1
Public Policy - 2

Final Count of Top 10 programs:

Berkeley: 17 (or 18 if you include UCSF Medical School)
Chicago: 9

Top 5 programs:

Berkeley: 12 (or 13 if you include UCSF Medical School)
Chicago: 4

Areas where Chicago > Berkeley: 2 (or 3 if you don't include UCSF Medical School, in which case Berkeley has no medical school)
Areas where Berkeley > Chicago: 14 (or 15 if you include UCSF Medical School)
Ties: 1 (Law)

You do the math.


So you take the world rank of 39 and UG rank of 21 for Berkeley out of the equation? You also want to count UCSF as Berkeley's med school? That seems fair.

Also, the larger schools are always going to win out if you go all the way across every single ranking. Small schools just aren't going to have the critical mass.



Just so you know, the USNWR world rank is one of the most absolute nonsense numbers out there of all the USNWR numbers. Have you looked at its methodology? For example, how is it that Berkeley is number 3 (chicago is 9, ahead of Yale even) on the Academic Ranking of World Universities (the go to source for international comparisons) and 39 on USNWR even though it has a reputation score of 99 out of a 100? Its because the ranking numbers are largely determined by things like number of international students attending and number of international faculty. How important do you think things like that are?

For some reason the ARWU site is down, but here is a link to huffpo story on it. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/0 ... lide_image
Last edited by WellNow on Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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crackberry
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby crackberry » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:26 pm

The Brainalist wrote:
crackberry wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:You consistently prove that you are a better person.

The two schools you troll hardest against are two of the best three schools in the nation. I can prove this if you'd like. I really hope this helps.


Berkeley is number 21 and 39. And, it graduates by far more people with the #21 UG than it does anything else. I'm not buying what they are selling. I really hope this helps.

What is the second school? I think Stanford is probably the best school for pretty much any program it offers, including law. I just happen to think that your typical student at Cal Tech is smarter than your typical student at almost anywhere except maybe MIT.

Your typical CalTech student is a better engineer than your typical Stanford student (but probably not much better than your typical Stanford engineer). But your typical Stanford student is a much better writer/analytical thinker, etc. than your typical CalTech student. The two schools are so different that it basically makes no sense to compare them. But Stanford is a better overall university than CalTech. That is an objective fact.

Yes, if you give disproportionate weight to UG, then Chicago > Berkeley (though Berkeley is a damn good UG and the best public UG in the country for sure). But the true measure of a university is not UG. It's grad programs. When you include those, Berkeley kicks Chicago's ass.

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The Brainalist
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby The Brainalist » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:29 pm

WellNow wrote:

Just so you know, the USNWR world rank is one of the most absolute nonsense numbers there out of all the USNWR numbers. Have you looked at its methodology? For example, how is that Berkeley is number 6 on the Academic Ranking of World Universities (the go to source for international comparisons) and 39 on USNWR even though it has a reputation score of 99 out of a 100? Its because the ranking numbers are largely determined by things like number of international students attending and number of international faculty. How important do you think things like that are?


Not really important at all. It serves no purpose than to show that people can arrive at different conclusions. I don't buy that USNWR is very good either. Just one of many things to consider. I like any ranking that undermines USNWR. I like that Stanford looks better than Yale in the NLJ, for example. Every top school has something to offer. Berkeley is an amazing school across the board. I just take issue with the black and white characterization that anything different = stupid.

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UnitarySpace
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby UnitarySpace » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:32 pm

Let's compare the graduate science and engineering programs of Berkeley and Caltech.

Sciences

Math: Berkeley T2 vs Caltech T7
Physics: Berkeley T3 vs Caltech T3
Chemistry: Berkeley T1 vs Caltech T1
Biology: Berkeley T2 vs Caltech T4
Computer Science: Berkeley T1 vs Caltech T11
Earth Sciences: Berkeley T4 vs Caltech T1 <--- OH NOES

Counting ties, we have Berkeley 5 Caltech 3

Engineering
N/A refers to no applicable program or outside of visible USNWR ranking

Aerospace Engineering: Berkeley N/A Caltech 1
Bio/Agricultural Engineering: Berkeley, Caltech N/A
ChemE: Berkeley T2 vs Caltech T3
BME, BioE: N/A
Civil: Berkeley 1 vs Caltech N/A
Computer Eng: Berkeley T1 vs Caltech T7
EE: Berkeley T1 vs Caltech 5
Environmental: Berkeley T1 vs Caltech T9
Industrial: Berkeley T2 vs Caltech N/A
Materials: Berkeley 5 vs Caltech N/A
MechE: Berkeley 3 vs Caltech 4
Nuclear: Berkeley T5 vs Caltech N/A

Score
Berkeley 9 Caltech 1

Edit:
Caltech has an amazing faculty for such a small school, but since it's so small, many departments lack the depth to attract a good diversity of graduate talent.
Last edited by UnitarySpace on Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The Brainalist
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby The Brainalist » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:35 pm

crackberry wrote:Your typical CalTech student is a better engineer than your typical Stanford student (but probably not much better than your typical Stanford engineer). But your typical Stanford student is a much better writer/analytical thinker, etc. than your typical CalTech student. The two schools are so different that it basically makes no sense to compare them. But Stanford is a better overall university than CalTech. That is an objective fact.

Yes, if you give disproportionate weight to UG, then Chicago > Berkeley (though Berkeley is a damn good UG and the best public UG in the country for sure). But the true measure of a university is not UG. It's grad programs. When you include those, Berkeley kicks Chicago's ass.


I think your facts are subjective. You place equal value on liberal arts, maybe I do not. There was an LSAT chart that showed science majors doing better on the LSAT than liberal arts majors, so for what we intend to do, it could be that this kind of intelligence is pretty useful, but only if you buy into the LSAT/good-lawyer correlation.

I also place a lot of value on the UG rep, because I believe I will be associated with those students in a very general way with my law degree. Totally subjective, but I think valid.

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$1.99
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby $1.99 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:35 pm

what is caltech? is it some kind of MIT poser, wannabe school? i am not flaming




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