Berkeley Haters

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Tofu
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby Tofu » Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:24 am

crackberry wrote:To ranovr32:

You are seriously misguided. Berkeley has so much more lay prestige AND academic prestige than Chicago it's not even funny. The only areas in which Chicago can even touch Berkeley are law and business/economics. Berkeley is EASILY one of the three best overall universities in the United States (with Harvard and Stanford). Chicago isn't even in the top 10.

Hope this helps.


i'm curious... what do you think are the top 10?

i can see HYPS berkeley for "overall"... what about columbia/upenn? and mit/caltech? where would you place chicago?

fortissimo
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby fortissimo » Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:17 am

Tofu wrote:
crackberry wrote:To ranovr32:

You are seriously misguided. Berkeley has so much more lay prestige AND academic prestige than Chicago it's not even funny. The only areas in which Chicago can even touch Berkeley are law and business/economics. Berkeley is EASILY one of the three best overall universities in the United States (with Harvard and Stanford). Chicago isn't even in the top 10.

Hope this helps.


i'm curious... what do you think are the top 10?

i can see HYPS berkeley for "overall"... what about columbia/upenn? and mit/caltech? where would you place chicago?


YP for overall? We're not just talking about undergrads. P has grad programs?

Top 10 list probably includes:

UPenn
Michigan (something like 80% of the grad programs are in the top 10/15)
Duke

Any other schools with large research output and different types of higher ranked grad programs. Wisconsin? Texas?

ranovr32
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby ranovr32 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:01 am

crackberry wrote:To ranovr32:

You are seriously misguided. Berkeley has so much more lay prestige AND academic prestige than Chicago it's not even funny. The only areas in which Chicago can even touch Berkeley are law and business/economics. Berkeley is EASILY one of the three best overall universities in the United States (with Harvard and Stanford). Chicago isn't even in the top 10.

Hope this helps.

How many Nobel Laureates attended Berkeley and or taught there, compare that to Chicago then get back to me......

ranovr32
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby ranovr32 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:04 am

fortissimo wrote:
Tofu wrote:
crackberry wrote:To ranovr32:

You are seriously misguided. Berkeley has so much more lay prestige AND academic prestige than Chicago it's not even funny. The only areas in which Chicago can even touch Berkeley are law and business/economics. Berkeley is EASILY one of the three best overall universities in the United States (with Harvard and Stanford). Chicago isn't even in the top 10.

Hope this helps.



i'm curious... what do you think are the top 10?

i can see HYPS berkeley for "overall"... what about columbia/upenn? and mit/caltech? where would you place chicago?


YP for overall? We're not just talking about undergrads. P has grad programs?

Top 10 list probably includes:

UPenn
Michigan (something like 80% of the grad programs are in the top 10/15)
Duke

Any other schools with large research output and different types of higher ranked grad programs. Wisconsin? Texas?


Wisconsin, Texas, AND Berkeley in the top 10 but no Chicago........ Really?

ranovr32
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby ranovr32 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:24 am

Google me b@#$%
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_U.S._uni ... ze_winners

But Berkeley is more prestigious mmmK........

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kittenmittons
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby kittenmittons » Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:25 am

ranovr32 wrote:Google me b@#$%
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_U.S._uni ... ze_winners

But Berkeley is more prestigious mmmK........


To be fair, Nobels are a joke. Berkeley still sucks though.

hth

ranovr32
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby ranovr32 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:47 am

kittenmittons wrote:
ranovr32 wrote:Google me b@#$%
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_U.S._uni ... ze_winners

But Berkeley is more prestigious mmmK........


To be fair, Nobels are a joke. Berkeley still sucks though.

hth

Maybe Obama's Nobel, but not Chicago's countless Laureates in Physics, Ecnomoics, and various other fields.
And yes your last statement was TCR

fortissimo
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby fortissimo » Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:47 pm

ranovr32 wrote:
fortissimo wrote:
Tofu wrote:
crackberry wrote:To ranovr32:

You are seriously misguided. Berkeley has so much more lay prestige AND academic prestige than Chicago it's not even funny. The only areas in which Chicago can even touch Berkeley are law and business/economics. Berkeley is EASILY one of the three best overall universities in the United States (with Harvard and Stanford). Chicago isn't even in the top 10.

Hope this helps.



i'm curious... what do you think are the top 10?

i can see HYPS berkeley for "overall"... what about columbia/upenn? and mit/caltech? where would you place chicago?


YP for overall? We're not just talking about undergrads. P has grad programs?

Top 10 list probably includes:

UPenn
Michigan (something like 80% of the grad programs are in the top 10/15)
Duke

Any other schools with large research output and different types of higher ranked grad programs. Wisconsin? Texas?


Wisconsin, Texas, AND Berkeley in the top 10 but no Chicago........ Really?


edit:
It is probably in the top 10...so maybe these schools? Dunno. Iffy on Cornell v. Texas.
UPenn
Michigan
Duke
Chicago
Columbia
Cornell
Wisconsin
Last edited by fortissimo on Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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gymboree
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby gymboree » Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:53 pm

The Pen Is Mightier wrote:
lawduder wrote:[strike]Berkeley[/strike]Californiais full of commies


so that's what they're calling Republicans now?

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gymboree
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby gymboree » Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:58 pm

I'm sure someone's already made this point, but I'm not going to read 11 pages to find it...

Of Berkeley's 36 graduate and professional programs, 35 are in the top 10. It is no fluke that the law school is highly ranked. And if you're at all interested in any interdisciplinary work, there is no better place (save perhaps Harvard). Because of the high rankings in a blanket of myriad areas, the academic prestige and lay prestige is extraordinarily high. My neurologist was certainly impressed this morning (sure, n=1, but qualitative anecdotes increase interest in reading a long post :D )

<---- a golden bear

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kittenmittons
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby kittenmittons » Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:01 pm

gymboree wrote:I'm sure someone's already made this point, but I'm not going to read 11 pages to find it...

Of Berkeley's 36 graduate and professional programs, 35 are in the top 10. It is no fluke that the law school is highly ranked. And if you're at all interested in any interdisciplinary work, there is no better place (save perhaps Harvard). Because of the high rankings in a blanket of myriad areas, the academic prestige and lay prestige is extraordinarily high. My neurologist was certainly impressed this morning (sure, n=1, but qualitative anecdotes increase interest in reading a long post :D )

<---- a golden bear


Redundant

fortissimo
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby fortissimo » Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:02 pm

gymboree wrote: Because of the high rankings in a blanket of myriad areas, the academic prestige and lay prestige is extraordinarily high.


It has academic prestige but lay prestige is iffy outside of the West Coast. Not that Chicago has lay prestige either though. Lay prestige is pretty regional.

sfdreaming09
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby sfdreaming09 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:23 pm

LOL @ the idea that Berkeley has no lay prestige (not that lay prestige means anything, but at any rate)....

http://www.gallup.com/poll/9109/harvard ... ublic.aspx

And moving beyong "lay prestige," in terms of prestige within the academic community, Berkeley (like Crackberry mentioned) is almost certainly one of the top 3 (along with Harvard and Stanford) universities in the country. All but one of Berkeley's 36 graduate programs is ranked in the top 10 (better than every school in the country), 8 Nobel prize winners currently serving on the faculty (not sure, but I think that means Berkeley has the most Nobels presently serving on the faculty).... see http://berkeley.edu/about/rank.shtml

and see the first part of this recent NY Times op-ed..... http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/03/opini ... rbert.html
Last edited by sfdreaming09 on Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

fortissimo
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby fortissimo » Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:27 pm

sfdreaming09 wrote:LOL @ the idea that Berkeley has no lay prestige (not that lay prestige means anything, but at any rate)....

http://www.gallup.com/poll/9109/harvard ... ublic.aspx


Not to rub it in, but this pretty much substantiates what I said. Outside of the West Coast, Berkeley's lay prestige is iffy and lay prestige is regional.

Perceptions of the best university in the US (by region):

East

Harvard
Yale
Princeton
Stanford
MIT
Penn State
Penn


Midwest

Harvard
Yale
Stanford
Michigan
Notre Dame

South

Harvard
Yale
Stanford
Duke
Texas A&M

West

Harvard
Stanford
Berkeley
Yale
MIT
UCLA

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kittenmittons
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby kittenmittons » Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:30 pm

fortissimo wrote:
sfdreaming09 wrote:LOL @ the idea that Berkeley has no lay prestige (not that lay prestige means anything, but at any rate)....

http://www.gallup.com/poll/9109/harvard ... ublic.aspx


Not to rub it in, but this pretty much substantiates what I said. Outside of the West Coast, Berkeley's lay prestige is iffy and lay prestige is regional.

Perceptions of the best university in the US (by region):

East

Harvard
Yale
Princeton
Stanford
MIT
Penn State
Penn


Midwest

Harvard
Yale
Stanford
Michigan
Notre Dame

South

Harvard
Yale
Stanford
Duke
Texas A&M

West

Harvard
Stanford
Berkeley
Yale
MIT
UCLA


Is this a joke?

fortissimo
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby fortissimo » Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:31 pm

kittenmittons wrote:
fortissimo wrote:
sfdreaming09 wrote:LOL @ the idea that Berkeley has no lay prestige (not that lay prestige means anything, but at any rate)....

http://www.gallup.com/poll/9109/harvard ... ublic.aspx


Not to rub it in, but this pretty much substantiates what I said. Outside of the West Coast, Berkeley's lay prestige is iffy and lay prestige is regional.

Perceptions of the best university in the US (by region):

East

Harvard
Yale
Princeton
Stanford
MIT
Penn State
Penn


Midwest

Harvard
Yale
Stanford
Michigan
Notre Dame

South

Harvard
Yale
Stanford
Duke
Texas A&M

West

Harvard
Stanford
Berkeley
Yale
MIT
UCLA


Is this a joke?


Penn State might look a little funny--although a lot of East Coasters went there--and maybe having Texas A&M up there too, but the rest of it seems legit. This poll was conducted by Gallup, so of course it's not a joke...maybe they confused Texas with Texas A&M?
Last edited by fortissimo on Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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kittenmittons
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby kittenmittons » Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:32 pm

fortissimo wrote:
kittenmittons wrote:
fortissimo wrote:
sfdreaming09 wrote:LOL @ the idea that Berkeley has no lay prestige (not that lay prestige means anything, but at any rate)....

http://www.gallup.com/poll/9109/harvard ... ublic.aspx


Not to rub it in, but this pretty much substantiates what I said. Outside of the West Coast, Berkeley's lay prestige is iffy and lay prestige is regional.

Perceptions of the best university in the US (by region):

East

Harvard
Yale
Princeton
Stanford
MIT
Penn State
Penn


Midwest

Harvard
Yale
Stanford
Michigan
Notre Dame

South

Harvard
Yale
Stanford
Duke
Texas A&M

West

Harvard
Stanford
Berkeley
Yale
MIT
UCLA


Is this a joke?


? Penn State might look a little funny and maybe having Texas A&M up there too, but the rest of it seems legit.


Those and no CalTech?

People in Texas don't even respect A&M

sfdreaming09
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby sfdreaming09 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:33 pm

fortissimo wrote:
sfdreaming09 wrote:LOL @ the idea that Berkeley has no lay prestige (not that lay prestige means anything, but at any rate)....

http://www.gallup.com/poll/9109/harvard ... ublic.aspx


Not to rub it in, but this pretty much substantiates what I said. Outside of the West Coast, Berkeley's lay prestige is iffy and lay prestige is regional.

Perceptions of the best university in the US (by region):

East

Harvard
Yale
Princeton
Stanford
MIT
Penn State
Penn


Midwest

Harvard
Yale
Stanford
Michigan
Notre Dame

South

Harvard
Yale
Stanford
Duke
Texas A&M

West

Harvard
Stanford
Berkeley
Yale
MIT
UCLA


Of course, when you're looking at only the top 5 schools for each region, Berkeley is most likely not going to end up on the list if you're talking about a region outside the West. But look at the national chart, Berkeley comes out at #5 (only behind HYS and MIT). Or look at the national chart that looks only at people with post-grad education, and again, Berkeley comes out at #5 (again, only behind HYS and MIT).

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kittenmittons
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby kittenmittons » Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:34 pm

What's the point of this thread again? Berkeley UG and California kids reassuring themselves that their liberal arts degree from a public school is prestigious?

fortissimo
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby fortissimo » Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:36 pm

sfdreaming09 wrote:
Of course, when you're looking at only the top 5 schools for each region, Berkeley is most likely not going to end up on the list if you're talking about a region outside the West. But look at the national chart, Berkeley comes out at #5 (only behind HYS and MIT). Or look at the national chart that looks only at people with post-grad education, and again, Berkeley comes out at #5 (again, only behind HYS and MIT).


1) Harvard - 29%
2) Stanford - 27%
3) Yale -14 %
4) MIT - 11%
5) Berkeley, Princeton, Michigan - 7%

I'm all for trolling, but 7% isn't exactly a number to boast about...
Last edited by fortissimo on Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bree
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby bree » Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:37 pm

I think people "hate" on Berkeley for a few reasons:

1) lower LSAT scores than peer schools
2) "hippie"/1960s reputation
3) grading system (pass/high pass/honors)
4) as compared to peer schools, seemingly lower success in biglaw
5) poor facilities compared to its peers

I think (1) is true and can't really be debated. However, they have every right to pick and choose how to accept people. It's ultimately a diversity issue. Berkeley wants to be diverse, but fact is that minorities tend to not do as well on standardized tests (LSAT, SAT, etc) as non-minorities. To get around this, they emphasize GPA instead. Berkeley has some limitations as a state institution with Prop 187/209, which banned affirmative action at least for undergraduate admissions. I don't know whether or not this extends to the law school. However, I'm guessing that it plays a role.

I think (2) is wayyyyy overblown. The Berkeley student body is much more conservative, middle/upper middle class than it used to be. This trend will likely continue with tuition hikes, effectively making it harder and harder for people with lower socioeconomic status from coming to Berkeley.

(3) is less of an issue now that more and more schools are doing this.

(4) seems to still be an issue. However, Berkeley Law students claim it's a matter of self-selection. Berkeley Law students tend to want to stay in Northern California and San Francisco/Silicon Valley aren't the biggest legal markets outside of the IP/Venture Capital regime. Then, they face stiff competition from Stanford and to a lesser extent Hastings within that market.

(5) is in the works I understand. However, as it stands, Berkeley's facilities are atrocious compared to the remainder of the T14.


Re: Berkeley's high tuition, yes, this is partly related to budget cuts. However, another part of this is due to Dean Christopher Edley's initiatives to make Berkeley a more competitive law school. This includes faculty recruitment, Berkeley's awesome LRAP program (up to $100K in benefits), and improved facilities. All of this costs $$$ and so tuition costs have been rising. California's budget woes only exacerbated the problem.

Re: Berkeley's prestige in other departments, that's really not any grounds for comparing law schools. Although law schools are named after the school, they are largely independent of the university at large aside from the name. So-called "public" law schools (Virginia, Michigan) receive very little, if no, money from the state and operate effectively as private law schools. There is some interaction with other departments, but honestly despite all the talk of "interdisciplinary" programs at law schools nowadays, it's very way overblown.

(Note: I went to Berkeley as an undergrad.)

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crackberry
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby crackberry » Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:08 pm

Look, I don't love Berkeley. I went to Stanford for Christ's sake. I'm supposed to HATE Berkeley.

But anyone who thinks Berkeley is not a top 3 overall university in the U.S. is seriously delusional.

Seriously, compare any university other than Harvard or Stanford to Berkeley and you understand how fucking awesome UCB is overall.

Anyone who thinks Chicago > Berkeley as an overall university has his head in the sand. It's as simple as that.

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Xnegd
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby Xnegd » Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:23 pm

vale1rd wrote:Is there a reason behind all the anti-berkeley statements out there, especially here on TLS and even my own pre-law advisor. I just cannot see the justification. I ask, because save Yale, Berkeley is by far my top choice


I love Berkeley, but I can completely understand why there are so many haters. i.e. an excerpt from my rant from Sunday:

Just went to the LSAC Forum in Oakland.

Was really awesome, and all but one of the schools was great! The gal from Boalt though was horrific. She wouldn't look at me when I asked her questions, I asked her if she liked being a student, and she give me terrible attitude and asked if I'd bothered looked at her name badge. When I pointed out to her hair was completely blocking it, she just stayed silent, and body language made it clear it was time for me to leave. I've rarely had a conversation where someone wouldn't even look at me, it just felt...weird.

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los blancos
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby los blancos » Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:39 pm

fortissimo wrote:Midwest

Harvard
Yale
Stanford
Michigan
Notre Dame


lulz @ Michigan or Notre Dame being held above UChicago and Northwestern in the Midwest

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los blancos
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Re: Berkeley Haters

Postby los blancos » Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:40 pm

crackberry wrote:Anyone who thinks Chicago > Berkeley as an overall university has his head in the sand. It's as simple as that.


+1, Chicago lacks too many fields.




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