Brooklyn v St. Johns

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Where would you rather go to pursue a legal education in the NY area?

Brooklyn Law School
28
90%
St. Johns School of Law
3
10%
 
Total votes: 31

Terp22
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Brooklyn v St. Johns

Postby Terp22 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:54 pm

How much of a difference is there between these schools?

How much extra debt is worth that difference?

Any TLSers out there who currently go to BLS ot St Johns with any experiences or viewpoints to share?

Discuss...

(I know this has thread has probably been started before but a new thread never heard anyone)

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najumobi
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Re: Brooklyn v St. Johns

Postby najumobi » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:14 pm

Terp22 wrote:How much of a difference is there between these schools?

How much extra debt is worth that difference?

Any TLSers out there who currently go to BLS ot St Johns with any experiences or viewpoints to share?

Discuss...

(I know this has thread has probably been started before but a new thread never heard anyone)

i don't think there's any difference in job prospects between these two schools. i would go to whichever one is cheaper.

bjf
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Re: Brooklyn v St. Johns

Postby bjf » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:15 pm

Interested in this as well.

am060459
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Re: Brooklyn v St. Johns

Postby am060459 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:17 pm

najumobi wrote:
Terp22 wrote:How much of a difference is there between these schools?

How much extra debt is worth that difference?

Any TLSers out there who currently go to BLS ot St Johns with any experiences or viewpoints to share?

Discuss...

(I know this has thread has probably been started before but a new thread never heard anyone)

i don't think there's any difference in job prospects between these two schools. i would go to whichever one is cheaper.


i disagree. BLS has a way better reputation than St. Johns in NY. BLS rank is 61 while St. Johns ranks 87th. that a huge difference.

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najumobi
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Re: Brooklyn v St. Johns

Postby najumobi » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:20 pm

am060459 wrote:
najumobi wrote:
Terp22 wrote:How much of a difference is there between these schools?

How much extra debt is worth that difference?

Any TLSers out there who currently go to BLS ot St Johns with any experiences or viewpoints to share?

Discuss...

(I know this has thread has probably been started before but a new thread never heard anyone)

i don't think there's any difference in job prospects between these two schools. i would go to whichever one is cheaper.


i disagree. BLS has a way better reputation than St. Johns in NY. BLS rank is 61 while St. Johns ranks 87th. that a huge difference.

difference in rankings doesn't equal difference in actual job prospects

nycparalegal
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Re: Brooklyn v St. Johns

Postby nycparalegal » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:22 pm

I'm in New York, and here is my POV:

Brooklyn is in a much better location, and it has a pretty good reputation in New York at the top of its class; however, ITE I'm not sure how well the top of the class is doing in landing a biglaw job.

St. Johns is in a pretty crappy location in Queens, and you also need to be in the very top of your class to get into biglaw.

Is there scholarship money involved? Both schools are ridiculously expensive.

Terp22
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Re: Brooklyn v St. Johns

Postby Terp22 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:25 pm

nycparalegal wrote:I'm in New York, and here is my POV:

Brooklyn is in a much better location, and it has a pretty good reputation in New York at the top of its class; however, ITE I'm not sure how well the top of the class is doing in landing a biglaw job.

St. Johns is in a pretty crappy location in Queens, and you also need to be in the very top of your class to get into biglaw.

Is there scholarship money involved? Both schools are ridiculously expensive.


There's money, but I'd like to know what you think the difference in debt is that legitimizes or unlegitimizes one school over the other?

nycparalegal
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Re: Brooklyn v St. Johns

Postby nycparalegal » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:26 pm

How much money from the schools, and what are the stipulations?

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najumobi
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Re: Brooklyn v St. Johns

Postby najumobi » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:26 pm

st. john, brooklyn comparison:

about 70% of students at both schools are employed at graduation.

~60% of both schools' graduates make under 60k/yr.

~15% of graduates at both schools go into govt.

~50% of both schools' grads work for law firms.
~20% of both schools' grads work in business/industry.

federal clerkship placements for both schools are almost nonexistent

brooklyn has a greater percentage going into public interest while st. johns has a greater percentage going into clerkships...that's about the only difference.

am060459
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Re: Brooklyn v St. Johns

Postby am060459 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:30 pm

najumobi wrote:
am060459 wrote:
najumobi wrote:
Terp22 wrote:How much of a difference is there between these schools?

How much extra debt is worth that difference?

Any TLSers out there who currently go to BLS ot St Johns with any experiences or viewpoints to share?

Discuss...

(I know this has thread has probably been started before but a new thread never heard anyone)

i don't think there's any difference in job prospects between these two schools. i would go to whichever one is cheaper.


i disagree. BLS has a way better reputation than St. Johns in NY. BLS rank is 61 while St. Johns ranks 87th. that a huge difference.

difference in rankings doesn't equal difference in actual job prospects


strongly disagree.

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nealric
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Re: Brooklyn v St. Johns

Postby nealric » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:44 pm

and you also need to be in the very top of your class to get into biglaw.


This is true for both schools.


i don't think there's any difference in job prospects between these two schools. i would go to whichever one is cheaper.


I agree with this. One might give you a 7% chance of biglaw and another a 5% chance, but I just don't see that as significant enough to choose one over another. Frankly, both are among worst bargains in legal education in the United States. Sky high tuition + saturated legal market + 3 unequivocally better schools in the same city = Bad deal for students.

am060459
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Re: Brooklyn v St. Johns

Postby am060459 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:46 pm

difference rankings does account for difference in employment prospects. if not why are there rankings?

a school with a better rank is ranked better because of several things. take a look at how USNWR calculates rankings for LS:

Quality Assessment (weighted by .40) - Peer Assessment Score (.25) and Assessment Score by Lawyers/Judges (.15)

Selectivity (weighted by .25) - Median LSAT Scores (.125), Median Undergrad GPA (.10), Acceptance Rate (.025)

Placement Success (weighted by .20) - Employment Rates for Graduates (.20)

Bar Passage Rate (.02)

Faculty Resources (weighted by .15) - Expenditures Per Student (1125.), Student/Faculty Ratio (.03), and Library Resources (.0075)

Placement success is given 20% of the weight. Employments prospects for BLS, as the other poster mentioned, is way better than St. Johns because of location. Overall, BLS, as the poll in this thread will show, is a way better choice than St. Johns.

if this doesnt convince OP lets assume he is getting no $$ from either school. St. Johns and BLS tuittion is roughly the same ($1500 difference). For $1500 i would take the school with a higher rank in a heartbeat.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/educatio ... -links:TOP

hank44
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Re: Brooklyn v St. Johns

Postby hank44 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:50 pm

As a previous post stated, the location - if nothing else - is very key. BLS is one subway stop away from wall street and st johns is nearly an hour commute from midtown via public transportation...i agree that both schools have a similarly average rep in nyc and the state, but BLS does seem to own a slight edge in that department as well. Money being equal, no reason not to pick BLS over SJU...as far as how much money it would take to pick SJU, thats really not something you can answer without knowing a) your finances and b) exactly how much money they DO offer..if one is free and one is sticker, you know the answer, right? it wont be that simple but you get the idea

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nealric
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Re: Brooklyn v St. Johns

Postby nealric » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:23 pm

difference rankings does account for difference in employment prospects. if not why are there rankings?


As you get farther down the rankings, it takes a larger and larger rank-number difference to indicate a real difference in job prospects. Remember, those reputation surveys are national. While just about everyone is familiar with the top schools, recognition becomes spotty once you get into the second tier and beyond. The point is that a 20 place rank difference is pretty meaningless between #60 and #80. By contrast, the difference between #1 and #20 is gigantic.

Placement success is given 20% weight, but the metric they use is pretty worthless as it counts someone working at McDonalds the same as someone working at Wachtell- they are both "employed".

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sirchristaylor
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Re: Brooklyn v St. Johns

Postby sirchristaylor » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:36 pm

I've met many Brooklyn grads in BigLaw, but none from St. John's. That's not to say that they don't exist. I believe that Brooklyn's reputation far exceeds St. John's.

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najumobi
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Re: Brooklyn v St. Johns

Postby najumobi » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:40 pm

am060459 wrote:difference rankings does account for difference in employment prospects. if not why are there rankings?

a school with a better rank is ranked better because of several things. take a look at how USNWR calculates rankings for LS:

Quality Assessment (weighted by .40) - Peer Assessment Score (.25) and Assessment Score by Lawyers/Judges (.15)

Selectivity (weighted by .25) - Median LSAT Scores (.125), Median Undergrad GPA (.10), Acceptance Rate (.025)

Placement Success (weighted by .20) - Employment Rates for Graduates (.20)

Bar Passage Rate (.02)

Faculty Resources (weighted by .15) - Expenditures Per Student (1125.), Student/Faculty Ratio (.03), and Library Resources (.0075)

Placement success is given 20% of the weight. Employments prospects for BLS, as the other poster mentioned, is way better than St. Johns because of location. Overall, BLS, as the poll in this thread will show, is a way better choice than St. Johns.

if this doesnt convince OP lets assume he is getting no $$ from either school. St. Johns and BLS tuittion is roughly the same ($1500 difference). For $1500 i would take the school with a higher rank in a heartbeat.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/educatio ... -links:TOP

i guess i feel like job placement should be the most important thing to look at when comparing schools. if the schools place their grads in the same type of jobs with the same salary, why would remote variables like faculty resources, and expenditure per student matter? i focus on the end result, which probably encapsulates alot of different variables.

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baboon309
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Re: Brooklyn v St. Johns

Postby baboon309 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:21 pm

najumobi wrote:
am060459 wrote:difference rankings does account for difference in employment prospects. if not why are there rankings?

a school with a better rank is ranked better because of several things. take a look at how USNWR calculates rankings for LS:

Quality Assessment (weighted by .40) - Peer Assessment Score (.25) and Assessment Score by Lawyers/Judges (.15)

Selectivity (weighted by .25) - Median LSAT Scores (.125), Median Undergrad GPA (.10), Acceptance Rate (.025)

Placement Success (weighted by .20) - Employment Rates for Graduates (.20)

Bar Passage Rate (.02)

Faculty Resources (weighted by .15) - Expenditures Per Student (1125.), Student/Faculty Ratio (.03), and Library Resources (.0075)

Placement success is given 20% of the weight. Employments prospects for BLS, as the other poster mentioned, is way better than St. Johns because of location. Overall, BLS, as the poll in this thread will show, is a way better choice than St. Johns.

if this doesnt convince OP lets assume he is getting no $$ from either school. St. Johns and BLS tuittion is roughly the same ($1500 difference). For $1500 i would take the school with a higher rank in a heartbeat.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/educatio ... -links:TOP

i guess i feel like job placement should be the most important thing to look at when comparing schools. if the schools place their grads in the same type of jobs with the same salary, why would remote variables like faculty resources, and expenditure per student matter? i focus on the end result, which probably encapsulates alot of different variables.



Nah. You should go to Rutgers.
http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf
If you can't get into NYU/Columbia/Fordham, you should go to Rutgers
Cheap Bargain & Better placement

jayare
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Re: Brooklyn v St. Johns

Postby jayare » Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:42 pm

Nah. You should go to Rutgers.
http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf
If you can't get into NYU/Columbia/Fordham, you should go to Rutgers
Cheap Bargain & Better placement



+1

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: Brooklyn v St. Johns

Postby XxSpyKEx » Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:23 pm

nealric wrote:
difference rankings does account for difference in employment prospects. if not why are there rankings?


As you get farther down the rankings, it takes a larger and larger rank-number difference to indicate a real difference in job prospects. Remember, those reputation surveys are national. While just about everyone is familiar with the top schools, recognition becomes spotty once you get into the second tier and beyond. The point is that a 20 place rank difference is pretty meaningless between #60 and #80. By contrast, the difference between #1 and #20 is gigantic.

Placement success is given 20% weight, but the metric they use is pretty worthless as it counts someone working at McDonalds the same as someone working at Wachtell- they are both "employed".


This.

USNews rankings are retarded in that they don't even include by far the most important thing when going to law school: career prospects.

I vote go to neither unless: 1) you are going for free including a full living stipend AND 2) you have a UG degree that is pretty much worthless (such as a liberal arts degree). Why? Because you will have wasted 3 years of your life but you won't have lost much in the process.




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