George Mason or American?

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gwuorbust
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Re: George Mason or American?

Postby gwuorbust » Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:57 pm

crm wrote:I know everyone keeps saying that American and George Mason have pretty similar employment prospects in regards to NLJ 250 firms, especially in DC, but after looking at quite a few of the firms that are on the list (I have too much time on my hands when not at work), I see that there is a lot more attorneys that graduated from American than George Mason. I was considering GMU, but now I'm thinking more so in the direction of American (pending other acceptances, if any), thoughts?


GMU is much newer, therefore they have fewer alum in firms.

crm
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Re: George Mason or American?

Postby crm » Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:29 am

gwuorbust wrote:
crm wrote:I know everyone keeps saying that American and George Mason have pretty similar employment prospects in regards to NLJ 250 firms, especially in DC, but after looking at quite a few of the firms that are on the list (I have too much time on my hands when not at work), I see that there is a lot more attorneys that graduated from American than George Mason. I was considering GMU, but now I'm thinking more so in the direction of American (pending other acceptances, if any), thoughts?


GMU is much newer, therefore they have fewer alum in firms.



that's what I was thinking, just wanted another opinion...thank you!

scionb4
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Re: George Mason or American?

Postby scionb4 » Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:35 am

With these two schools, you have to take culture into account as much as rankings/job prospects, or at least bear it in mind. American is extremely bleeding-heart liberal with a typically younger student body, while George Mason is very conservative with a lot of working professionals. Definitely think about which environment you would prefer.

digitalcntrl
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Re: George Mason or American?

Postby digitalcntrl » Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:07 pm

crm wrote:I know everyone keeps saying that American and George Mason have pretty similar employment prospects in regards to NLJ 250 firms, especially in DC, but after looking at quite a few of the firms that are on the list (I have too much time on my hands when not at work), I see that there is a lot more attorneys that graduated from American than George Mason. I was considering GMU, but now I'm thinking more so in the direction of American (pending other acceptances, if any), thoughts?


Realize two different things: 1) George Mason only has half the student body that American does (around 730 vs. 1550 students) and 2) Mason I think only has been T1 for the past 7 years or so. Given that it is not surprising there would be less Mason attorneys at various NALP firms. I cannot comment on the Mason experience, however, I did attend American for one year before transferring. If your goal is BigLaw, American is probably not a good choice (unless you did not get into any other school with a similar or better rank). American is too overemphazied on public interest and international law. The admin seems to pay more attention to these specialization rankings than their overall ranking. Also their are not many courses for a BigLaw due to American's dedication to int. law and public service.

hithere
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Re: George Mason or American?

Postby hithere » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:42 am

if you want international law, American hands down--AU also has more employers come to campus for oci than GMU

T14Dreaming
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Re: George Mason or American?

Postby T14Dreaming » Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:17 pm

You need to be honest with yourself..... many people come in saying international law, but end up doing something completely different. There is one law school in DC that you go to if you get in... GULC. The two law schools in D.C. that everybody in D.C. scratches their heads at and asks why did you attend them are Catholic and American.

You need to do a real cost benefit analysis of the different schools that you have been accepted to. Which ever one leaves you with less debt is the one that will allow you to pursue a career in international law.

Remember unless you go to a T-14, your law school really doesn't carry a lot of weight after 5 years of practicing.

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Joga Bonito
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Re: George Mason or American?

Postby Joga Bonito » Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:21 pm

If you want international law and those are your two choices, then the clear choice is American.
End of Thread.

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Blindmelon
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Re: George Mason or American?

Postby Blindmelon » Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:27 pm

hithere wrote:if you want international law, American hands down--AU also has more employers come to campus for oci than GMU


Yea, they also have double the class size. American, unfortunately, doesn't even have a great rep. in DC.

OP, I want to work for an international focused gov. agency as well. While I have delusions of "international law", the JD has opened doors at gov. agencies in the non-legal areas. I echo the poster above that said make sure that a JD is best route to where you want to be. I priced it out and will end up in 70k of debt, which to me is worth it to have the JD. Masters can be considerably cheaper and just as useful. For what I want to do, JD wins though.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: George Mason or American?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:55 pm

T14Dreaming wrote:You need to be honest with yourself..... many people come in saying international law, but end up doing something completely different. There is one law school in DC that you go to if you get in... GULC. The two law schools in D.C. that everybody in D.C. scratches their heads at and asks why did you attend them are Catholic and American.

You need to do a real cost benefit analysis of the different schools that you have been accepted to. Which ever one leaves you with less debt is the one that will allow you to pursue a career in international law.

Remember unless you go to a T-14, your law school really doesn't carry a lot of weight after 5 years of practicing.


George Washington?

GW is to Georgetown is what Fordham is to Cornell.

Or at least in the eyes of people in the position to hire.

To people not in the position to hire graduates or people not in that region, there appears to be a huge difference.

But the difference, at least in their "home" markets, is minimal.

Nevertheless, someone stated earlier that GM and AU had similar job prospects.

I wouldn't think so, given that 48% of the class of 2007 from American stayed in DC and 46% of the class of 2007 from George Mason stayed in Virginia.

Regardless just note that only 38% of George Masons class of 2007 went into firms (emphasis added).

Also note that a whopping 22% that class entered into "business and industry" jobs - and you all know what that means.

See also only 72% of that class entered into employment with jobs that required a JD.

I'm just saying that people should be careful before committing three years of their life thinking an institution is "safe" just because it's in the top 50.

As stated in an earlier post, Mason in relatively new to the T1 - likely a result of people thinking they could go to school in VA and somehow that that would help them get into DC.

Be careful 0Ls.

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ATOIsp07
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Re: George Mason or American?

Postby ATOIsp07 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:33 am

T14Dreaming wrote:You need to be honest with yourself..... many people come in saying international law, but end up doing something completely different. There is one law school in DC that you go to if you get in... GULC. The two law schools in D.C. that everybody in D.C. scratches their heads at and asks why did you attend them are Catholic and American.

You need to do a real cost benefit analysis of the different schools that you have been accepted to. Which ever one leaves you with less debt is the one that will allow you to pursue a career in international law.

Remember unless you go to a T-14, your law school really doesn't carry a lot of weight after 5 years of practicing.



Glad you're not a TLS snob...

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texas0813
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Re: George Mason or American?

Postby texas0813 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:41 am

it's true that GMU is cheaper but only if you live in-state. otherwise, both schools are really similar in price. plus, one needs to consider the campus atmosphere, student body, political aura of both places to truly differentiate between the two. though both reputable, they're two different animals.

American-suburban, left-bending, diverse student body, geared towards pub. interest, international law, gov.
GMU-relatively urban, right-leaning, older student body, geared towards economics, tax and business law

both are at opposite ends of the spectrum.


This is why the thought of going to GMU personally makes me cringe as I'm from Texas and am trying to get away from the right-leaning folks. But I'm totally geared towards public interest law also which was a big factor; I think you really need to visit to get a feel for both of them and then decide!

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ATOIsp07
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Re: George Mason or American?

Postby ATOIsp07 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:50 am

Blindmelon wrote:Yea, they also have double the class size. American, unfortunately, doesn't even have a great rep. in DC.


Flag on the play!

It's one thing to personally not fancy a school. But, to tarnish a school to the point of outright lying is rather absurd.

If anything, it's more likely that GMU doesn't even have that great of a reputation in DC.

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Blindmelon
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Re: George Mason or American?

Postby Blindmelon » Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:22 am

ATOIsp07 wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:Yea, they also have double the class size. American, unfortunately, doesn't even have a great rep. in DC.


Flag on the play!

It's one thing to personally not fancy a school. But, to tarnish a school to the point of outright lying is rather absurd.

If anything, it's more likely that GMU doesn't even have that great of a reputation in DC.


Neither does really. But, as everyone has said previously, GMU is a lot cheaper.

T14Dreaming
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Re: George Mason or American?

Postby T14Dreaming » Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:45 pm

ATOIsp07 wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:Yea, they also have double the class size. American, unfortunately, doesn't even have a great rep. in DC.


Flag on the play!

It's one thing to personally not fancy a school. But, to tarnish a school to the point of outright lying is rather absurd.

If anything, it's more likely that GMU doesn't even have that great of a reputation in DC.




Obviously you are not from around the D.C. Metro Region.......

Secondly, this is a simple evaluation of total cost of attendance. Whichever one has the cheaper total cost of attendance is the law school that someone should attend.

Lastly, everyone should realize the GMU's law school is less than 6 miles outside of D.C., or for those of us in the area only 4 metro stops from D.C. You really have a lot of people on this thread who do not understand what they are talking about. There is a saying in the D.C. Metro Area "We only hire from the Georges". i.e. Georgetown, George Washington, and George Mason

crm
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Re: George Mason or American?

Postby crm » Sun Feb 14, 2010 2:00 am

T14Dreaming wrote:
ATOIsp07 wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:Yea, they also have double the class size. American, unfortunately, doesn't even have a great rep. in DC.


Flag on the play!

It's one thing to personally not fancy a school. But, to tarnish a school to the point of outright lying is rather absurd.

If anything, it's more likely that GMU doesn't even have that great of a reputation in DC.




Obviously you are not from around the D.C. Metro Region.......

Secondly, this is a simple evaluation of total cost of attendance. Whichever one has the cheaper total cost of attendance is the law school that someone should attend.

Lastly, everyone should realize the GMU's law school is less than 6 miles outside of D.C., or for those of us in the area only 4 metro stops from D.C. You really have a lot of people on this thread who do not understand what they are talking about. There is a saying in the D.C. Metro Area "We only hire from the Georges". i.e. Georgetown, George Washington, and George Mason



This is nice to hear because right now I'm going to George Mason (99% sure) and its nice to hear from someone who is from there (or within 7 miles to those who will get all pissed that you are 6 miles out). I've had doubts and was trying to find someone in DC to hear from, so thanks!

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ATOIsp07
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Re: George Mason or American?

Postby ATOIsp07 » Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:48 pm

ITT: anti-American trolling

as a matter of fact, on TLS: anti-American trolling

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Blindmelon
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Re: George Mason or American?

Postby Blindmelon » Sun Feb 14, 2010 3:10 pm

ATOIsp07 wrote:ITT: anti-American trolling

as a matter of fact, on TLS: anti-American trolling


40k/year for a school thats behind UVA, Gtown, GW and a slew of other great schools for an incredibly hard region to break into and it doesn't travel outside that region and is (basically) tied with GMU, and you think this thread is anti-American trolling? I think its too lite on the school. American is the Cardozo of DC, and GMU is the Brooklyn Law (except a lot cheaper).

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ATOIsp07
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Re: George Mason or American?

Postby ATOIsp07 » Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:11 pm

Blindmelon wrote:
ATOIsp07 wrote:ITT: anti-American trolling

as a matter of fact, on TLS: anti-American trolling


40k/year for a school thats behind UVA, Gtown, GW and a slew of other great schools for an incredibly hard region to break into and it doesn't travel outside that region and is (basically) tied with GMU, and you think this thread is anti-American trolling? I think its too lite on the school. American is the Cardozo of DC, and GMU is the Brooklyn Law (except a lot cheaper).


A.) American is a T1 (and has been for quite sometime) and Cardozo is more or less stuck at upper/mid T2 for a little while. And I'll even go on record as saying that WCL will most likely continue to improve in the rankings (mainly because of its location in the DC area)

B.) WCL actually does have solid degree portability, compared to similar ranked schools--better than GMU, Cardozo and Maryland. Almuni in 31 states for a regional school is not too shabby.

C.) American grads, believe it or not, have a fairly easy time finding employment in DC (the alumni network is quite underrated).

D.) If you're going to include UVA in that DC market, why not add Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Columbia and Cornell while you're at it?; that'd certainly make G'town at least the 5th best option in that region. Why would you pay all that money for the 5th best school in "an incredibly hard region"?

DC is the best legal market (NY is the other option) so I'm sure it attracts grads from all around the country. And for your analogy, there are more NY firms represented with UVA grads than DC firms (this is from the UVA website itself); would you say that UVA would probably be a better choice than say, Fordham/Brooklyn/Cardozo, if one were to aim specifically for the NY market?

E.) I concur that it has a sizeable price-tag. But which school doesn't, these days?

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Blindmelon
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Re: George Mason or American?

Postby Blindmelon » Sun Feb 14, 2010 6:38 pm

ATOIsp07 wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:
ATOIsp07 wrote:ITT: anti-American trolling

as a matter of fact, on TLS: anti-American trolling


40k/year for a school thats behind UVA, Gtown, GW and a slew of other great schools for an incredibly hard region to break into and it doesn't travel outside that region and is (basically) tied with GMU, and you think this thread is anti-American trolling? I think its too lite on the school. American is the Cardozo of DC, and GMU is the Brooklyn Law (except a lot cheaper).


A.) American is a T1 (and has been for quite sometime) and Cardozo is more or less stuck at upper/mid T2 for a little while. And I'll even go on record as saying that WCL will most likely continue to improve in the rankings (mainly because of its location in the DC area)

B.) WCL actually does have solid degree portability, compared to similar ranked schools--better than GMU, Cardozo and Maryland. Almuni in 31 states for a regional school is not too shabby.

C.) American grads, believe it or not, have a fairly easy time finding employment in DC (the alumni network is quite underrated).

D.) If you're going to include UVA in that DC market, why not add Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Columbia and Cornell while you're at it?; that'd certainly make G'town at least the 5th best option in that region. Why would you pay all that money for the 5th best school in "an incredibly hard region"?

DC is the best legal market (NY is the other option) so I'm sure it attracts grads from all around the country. And for your analogy, there are more NY firms represented with UVA grads than DC firms (this is from the UVA website itself); would you say that UVA would probably be a better choice than say, Fordham/Brooklyn/Cardozo, if one were to aim specifically for the NY market?

E.) I concur that it has a sizeable price-tag. But which school doesn't, these days?



GMU. Hence why its > American. At least you agree.

hithere
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Re: George Mason or American?

Postby hithere » Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:23 pm

T14Dreaming wrote:
ATOIsp07 wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:Yea, they also have double the class size. American, unfortunately, doesn't even have a great rep. in DC.


Flag on the play!

It's one thing to personally not fancy a school. But, to tarnish a school to the point of outright lying is rather absurd.

If anything, it's more likely that GMU doesn't even have that great of a reputation in DC.




Obviously you are not from around the D.C. Metro Region.......

Secondly, this is a simple evaluation of total cost of attendance. Whichever one has the cheaper total cost of attendance is the law school that someone should attend.

Lastly, everyone should realize the GMU's law school is less than 6 miles outside of D.C., or for those of us in the area only 4 metro stops from D.C. You really have a lot of people on this thread who do not understand what they are talking about. There is a saying in the D.C. Metro Area "We only hire from the Georges". i.e. Georgetown, George Washington, and George Mason


If by "Georges", you mean Georgetown, then you are correct. I know too many folks at Mason (and some at GW) that don't have squat lined up in terms of job prospects.

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T14_Scholly
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Re: George Mason or American?

Postby T14_Scholly » Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:47 pm

"not sure if I want biglaw or government..."

You realize the level of competition you're going to have to get into either of those? You don't just say "I choose biglaw" coming out of American and then get in.

NYVA311
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Re: George Mason or American?

Postby NYVA311 » Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:13 pm

T14 Scholly, Catholic and American are fine schools if you don't want Big Law. A lot of people on here assume it's Big Law or NOTHING so if the school doesn't place well in Big Law, well, that school is worthless. I agree that they won't place you in Big Law unless you've got great connections/are at the top of your class or possibly not even then, but to say they're not worth attending no matter what is a bit too harsh. Obviously the "Georges" are better schools in general, but that's ridiculously elitist to assume that just because a school isn't the "best" it's the worst, or worthless.

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ATOIsp07
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Re: George Mason or American?

Postby ATOIsp07 » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:02 pm

Blindmelon wrote:
ATOIsp07 wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:
ATOIsp07 wrote:ITT: anti-American trolling

as a matter of fact, on TLS: anti-American trolling


40k/year for a school thats behind UVA, Gtown, GW and a slew of other great schools for an incredibly hard region to break into and it doesn't travel outside that region and is (basically) tied with GMU, and you think this thread is anti-American trolling? I think its too lite on the school. American is the Cardozo of DC, and GMU is the Brooklyn Law (except a lot cheaper).


A.) American is a T1 (and has been for quite sometime) and Cardozo is more or less stuck at upper/mid T2 for a little while. And I'll even go on record as saying that WCL will most likely continue to improve in the rankings (mainly because of its location in the DC area)

B.) WCL actually does have solid degree portability, compared to similar ranked schools--better than GMU, Cardozo and Maryland. Almuni in 31 states for a regional school is not too shabby.

C.) American grads, believe it or not, have a fairly easy time finding employment in DC (the alumni network is quite underrated).

D.) If you're going to include UVA in that DC market, why not add Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Columbia and Cornell while you're at it?; that'd certainly make G'town at least the 5th best option in that region. Why would you pay all that money for the 5th best school in "an incredibly hard region"?

DC is the best legal market (NY is the other option) so I'm sure it attracts grads from all around the country. And for your analogy, there are more NY firms represented with UVA grads than DC firms (this is from the UVA website itself); would you say that UVA would probably be a better choice than say, Fordham/Brooklyn/Cardozo, if one were to aim specifically for the NY market?

E.) I concur that it has a sizeable price-tag. But which school doesn't, these days?



GMU. Hence why its > American. At least you agree.



If you're in-state. But if OP isn't, then debt is really going to be similar, if he attends GMU or American.

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ATOIsp07
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Re: George Mason or American?

Postby ATOIsp07 » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:05 pm

NYVA311 wrote:T14 Scholly, Catholic and American are fine schools if you don't want Big Law. A lot of people on here assume it's Big Law or NOTHING so if the school doesn't place well in Big Law, well, that school is worthless. I agree that they won't place you in Big Law unless you've got great connections/are at the top of your class or possibly not even then, but to say they're not worth attending no matter what is a bit too harsh. Obviously the "Georges" are better schools in general, but that's ridiculously elitist to assume that just because a school isn't the "best" it's the worst, or worthless.


While WCL can be said to not be BIGLAW-oriented, I bet you that that the top 10-15% coming out of WCL will do better in terms of BIGLAW prospects than anyone who attends GMU or GW and finishes at top 40/50%.

People underestimate AU's network in the DC area. And in terms of lay prestige, I'm sure American has a better rep than GMU.

NYVA311
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Re: George Mason or American?

Postby NYVA311 » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:27 pm

ATOIsp07 wrote:
NYVA311 wrote:T14 Scholly, Catholic and American are fine schools if you don't want Big Law. A lot of people on here assume it's Big Law or NOTHING so if the school doesn't place well in Big Law, well, that school is worthless. I agree that they won't place you in Big Law unless you've got great connections/are at the top of your class or possibly not even then, but to say they're not worth attending no matter what is a bit too harsh. Obviously the "Georges" are better schools in general, but that's ridiculously elitist to assume that just because a school isn't the "best" it's the worst, or worthless.


While WCL can be said to not be BIGLAW-oriented, I bet you that that the top 10-15% coming out of WCL will do better in terms of BIGLAW prospects than anyone who attends GMU or GW and finishes at top 40/50%.

People underestimate AU's network in the DC area. And in terms of lay prestige, I'm sure American has a better rep than GMU.


True, can't deny that. I'm sure the top 10% or so do very well in Big Law - better than the average GMU/GW student for sure. GMU has almost no lay prestige - everyone associates it with its undergrad, which is very mediocre from what I've heard. I was writing that response more to point out their generalization that Catholic/American are schools that everyone "scratches their head at" when trying to figure out why you attended them (because Catholic is one of my top choices and I took personal offense haha). One seemingly obvious response would be "I don't want Big Law or anything close to it, so I don't HAVE to attend a T14 or T30 to be satisfied." I didn't apply to American because I doubt I'd fit in with the "bleeding-heart liberal/International studies" type - and I don't have a 162ish LSAT.




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