UMiami vs. Rutgers

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UMiami or Rutgers?

Poll ended at Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:35 am

Miami
16
64%
Rutgers
9
36%
 
Total votes: 25

msv5010
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UMiami vs. Rutgers

Postby msv5010 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:35 am

I mentioned this in the UM vs. UF thread and someone else had a similar poll, but I figured I'd try to get more opinions based on my circumstances. My top two choices right now are Rutgers Newark (in state tuition, $8k/year with a 3.0) and Miami ($23k/year with a 3.2). This puts tuition at the two schools at roughly $13k and $15k, respectively. Of course, this is if I maintain the GPA requirements. If I don't, I'll be looking at $21k or $38k. While technically I could live at home at Rutgers, I probably wouldn't, making COL essentially equal. My permanent residence is in NJ, but I have a residence in Naples, FL as well. I'm familiar with both areas and have no real preference as to where I would like to work. Finally, I am an accounting major, have experience with tax, and I am considering taxation as a focus, which makes Miami even more appealing.

With all this in mind, what would you do if you were me?

If I could negotiate and get a better scholarship offer at either school, that could also help me with the decision. Anyone ever have the GPA minimum lowered or dropped? If so, do you have any advice for me?

I appreciate any feedback I can get. Thanks.

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PDaddy
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Re: UMiami vs. Rutgers

Postby PDaddy » Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:41 am

New Jersey is a terrible market, and Rutgers doesn't even crack NYC unless top-5%. And those are not all BigLaw. Top 40% Miami grads work all over Florida, and the top 10% can go Biglaw (maybe 15%). And remember, Miami also has (at least some access) the Atlanta and Charlotte markets, though those are dominated by the big dogs from their respective states plus Vandy. The caveat is the current economy which reduces those percentages. But the key is that Miami can hold down its own market, and it's a pretty good market, so grads don't need to leave.
Last edited by PDaddy on Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:50 am, edited 3 times in total.

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baboon309
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Re: UMiami vs. Rutgers

Postby baboon309 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:53 am

Rutgers-Newark actually placed better in big law than UMiami before the crisis.
Rutgers placed 15% in Big law, 20-25% in Judicial clerkship.
Miami placed about 8-9% in Big Law

I have same offer like you, but I think that I'll go to Miami

msv5010
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Re: UMiami vs. Rutgers

Postby msv5010 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:25 pm

Thanks for the posts/replies, I appreciate the advice. I am also currently leaning towards Miami, but I also just scheduled my visit to Miami over spring break, so I'm excited about getting down there. I was leaning towards Rutgers a week ago and feel like it is the better financial option if I cannot negotiate the scholarships.

Of course, the situation could change if I get into the other schools I applied to (UF, Wake Forest, FSU, Seton Hall, Villanova, and serious long shots like Georgia, ND, William and Mary) but I hope to at least narrow it down based on the schools I've been admitted to so I can withdraw from those I will not attend and give other applicants a spot. Having said that, I think Miami and Rutgers will be hard to beat with their offers.

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PDaddy
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Re: UMiami vs. Rutgers

Postby PDaddy » Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:18 pm

baboon309 wrote:Rutgers-Newark actually placed better in big law than UMiami before the crisis.
Rutgers placed 15% in Big law, 20-25% in Judicial clerkship.
Miami placed about 8-9% in Big Law

I have same offer like you, but I think that I'll go to Miami


I do agree with this. But OP should always note whether a school can hold its own market unless it's top-20 or so. That is the key because penetration of other markets is not prevalent in this economy. And Miami is a "regional" school, whereas Rutgers is more of a "local" school that just happens to be near NYC.

msv5010
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Re: UMiami vs. Rutgers

Postby msv5010 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:26 pm

I understand both points and I believe both have merit. What I don't understand is why TLS really seems to like Rutgers-Newark and hate Miami. That definitely concerns me.

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Grizz
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Re: UMiami vs. Rutgers

Postby Grizz » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:59 pm

Remember, UF>FSU>Miami (roughly). In Miami and S. FL, UF and Miami are more evenly matched. While you can get a good job from Miami, expect to work very hard, because competition is fierce. I suspect it's not as easy as PDaddy makes it seem. At least you won't be paying sticker.

In terms of Miami's strength throughout the region, especially the mention of Atlanta, PDaddy must know something I don't, because I have heard everything to the contrary from many students and lawyers. In Atlanta, you have to compete with Emory/Vanderbilt, UGA/Alabama, and Georgia State grads, roughly in that order. All of these schools are ranked higher than Miami, and place better in Atlanta. In Charlotte, have fun with competing with the likes of Duke (though many grads leave the state), UNC, and Wake.

I strongly advise against going to Miami if you want to work anywhere other than Florida. PDaddy says that Miami grads can go Biglaw, and this is true for those with top grades, but these grads will probably end up working for the big firms in Florida, such as Holland and Knight, Greenberg Traurig, etc. While it's certainly possible to get a job in the region (at least theoretically), you better plan on making stellar grades.

keg411
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Re: UMiami vs. Rutgers

Postby keg411 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:50 pm

msv5010 wrote:I understand both points and I believe both have merit. What I don't understand is why TLS really seems to like Rutgers-Newark and hate Miami. That definitely concerns me.


Because if you compare the sticker price of both, Rutgers is cheaper.
However, if you want to practice in Florida (and those are your only options), obviously you go to Miami.

msv5010
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Re: UMiami vs. Rutgers

Postby msv5010 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:59 pm

Looking back, it makes more sense. I read the schools' profiles when I applied but have only skimmed them since. Going over it now, they do stress that it may not be worth sticker price, which could be a concern for 2L and 3L if I don't maintain the 3.2. Scary thought.

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baboon309
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Re: UMiami vs. Rutgers

Postby baboon309 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:51 pm

Even with 23k scholly, the cost between Rutegers & Miami are almost the same.
3.2 curve is about 50% for Miami
3.0 curve in Rutgers is also 50%

(Based on May 2008 graduation class)
Top 10%: 3.634
Top 25%: 3.439
Top 33%: 3.361
Top 50%: 3.203
Top 75%: 2.940

With 23k scholly, you are expecting $124.411.04 when you graduate
In a 10 years repayment plan, it equals to $1483.05 per month
25 years repayment plan, it equals to $927.56 per month


You can figure out how much debt will you have by 2013 using the spreadsheet that I built last night. The only thing that you have to do is to modify the tuition, Room/board, books & supplies. personal, transpotation and scholly columns.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/cfn3ww

The spreedsheet only works if your annual loan need is larger than 20500 at this moment.

I ran the total debt by 2013 from Rutgers the other day. It`s about a few thousand dollars cheaper than Miami
If you don't know how to use the spreedsheet, let me know

So the cost will be the same. It really depends on where you wanna practice.

msv5010
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Re: UMiami vs. Rutgers

Postby msv5010 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:30 am

Thanks, that is really helpful. I'm not sure how much I will have to borrow, but it would likely be the same in both places, so the spreadsheet is a great way to compare the two schools financially. I guess the biggest concern is, while the standards are virtually the same for each school's GPA minimum, losing Miami's scholarship would hurt A LOT more than losing Rutgers. I know I should just pick the school, buckle down, and make the grades, but you just never know. I'm visiting both Rutgers and Miami within the next 6 weeks so hopefully that will give me a better idea of where I would rather be. Thanks again.

afterglow99
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Re: UMiami vs. Rutgers

Postby afterglow99 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:36 am

keg411 wrote:
msv5010 wrote:I understand both points and I believe both have merit. What I don't understand is why TLS really seems to like Rutgers-Newark and hate Miami. That definitely concerns me.


Because if you compare the sticker price of both, Rutgers is cheaper.
However, if you want to practice in Florida (and those are your only options), obviously you go to Miami.


There's no more hate on Miami than there is on any other T2-4 private schools that charge the same as the T14. Is Rutgers amazing? No. They do at least, however, charge reasonable tuition that matches up with what most graduates will make after graduation.

Go with Rutgers and rest easy knowing that if you fall below median you won't be saddled with the same amount of debt.

J-tow10
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Re: UMiami vs. Rutgers

Postby J-tow10 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:41 am

baboon309 wrote:Even with 23k scholly, the cost between Rutegers & Miami are almost the same.
3.2 curve is about 50% for Miami
3.0 curve in Rutgers is also 50%

(Based on May 2008 graduation class)
Top 10%: 3.634
Top 25%: 3.439
Top 33%: 3.361
Top 50%: 3.203
Top 75%: 2.940

With 23k scholly, you are expecting $124.411.04 when you graduate
In a 10 years repayment plan, it equals to $1483.05 per month
25 years repayment plan, it equals to $927.56 per month


You can figure out how much debt will you have by 2013 using the spreadsheet that I built last night. The only thing that you have to do is to modify the tuition, Room/board, books & supplies. personal, transpotation and scholly columns.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/cfn3ww

The spreedsheet only works if your annual loan need is larger than 20500 at this moment.

I ran the total debt by 2013 from Rutgers the other day. It`s about a few thousand dollars cheaper than Miami
If you don't know how to use the spreedsheet, let me know

So the cost will be the same. It really depends on where you wanna practice.




That's actually really helpful. Thank you for sharing with us!

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PDaddy
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Re: UMiami vs. Rutgers

Postby PDaddy » Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:58 am

rad law wrote:Remember, UF>FSU>Miami (roughly). In Miami and S. FL, UF and Miami are more evenly matched. While you can get a good job from Miami, expect to work very hard, because competition is fierce. I suspect it's not as easy as PDaddy makes it seem. At least you won't be paying sticker.

In terms of Miami's strength throughout the region, especially the mention of Atlanta, PDaddy must know something I don't, because I have heard everything to the contrary from many students and lawyers. In Atlanta, you have to compete with Emory/Vanderbilt, UGA/Alabama, and Georgia State grads, roughly in that order. All of these schools are ranked higher than Miami, and place better in Atlanta. In Charlotte, have fun with competing with the likes of Duke (though many grads leave the state), UNC, and Wake.

I strongly advise against going to Miami if you want to work anywhere other than Florida. PDaddy says that Miami grads can go Biglaw, and this is true for those with top grades, but these grads will probably end up working for the big firms in Florida, such as Holland and Knight, Greenberg Traurig, etc. While it's certainly possible to get a job in the region (at least theoretically), you better plan on making stellar grades.


Well, let me qualify my remarks. I am not saying it's "easy" for a Miami grad to work in Charlotte or ATL, but at least you can get a look. And Florida has three worthwhile markets Miami, Orlando (small), and Tampa (small). Rutgers grads have to compete with all of the big dogs for work in NY (and maybe Boston) and that leave them stuck in Jersey for the most part. Who wants that? I'd rather be stuck in Florida with the prospect of working in Miami or Orlando and still having a shot at ATL. Miami actually sends grads to D.C. and NY more often than N.C..

But I don't mean that Miami grads are prevalent in those other markets, just that it can be done.

In a typical economy (which we do not have, but is useful for analysis), Miami places 60% of its grads into firms, whereas Rutgers is a scary 40%. Rutgers does have typically higher bigLaw placement, but its job prospects overall are not as good. And in this economy, I think Miami has a leg up because of its access to the other markets, even if the jobs aren't BigLaw. And Miami holds its own market down. The extra $$ invested might be worth the increased job prospects.

http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf

I posted 2005 because it shows more typical employment patterns. Miami has lower attrition and fewer unemployed grads. Rutgers has it hard. The $$ you save will not offset the potentially wasted time.

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Grizz
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Re: UMiami vs. Rutgers

Postby Grizz » Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:44 am

PDaddy wrote:Well, let me qualify my remarks. I am not saying it's "easy" for a Miami grad to work in Charlotte or ATL, but at least you can get a look. And Florida has three worthwhile markets Miami, Orlando (small), and Tampa (small). Rutgers grads have to compete with all of the big dogs for work in NY (and maybe Boston) and that leave them stuck in Jersey for the most part. Who wants that? I'd rather be stuck in Florida with the prospect of working in Miami or Orlando and still having a shot at ATL. Miami actually sends grads to D.C. and NY more often than N.C..

But I don't mean that Miami grads are prevalent in those other markets, just that it can be done.

In a typical economy (which we do not have, but is useful for analysis), Miami places 60% of its grads into firms, whereas Rutgers is a scary 40%. Rutgers does have typically higher bigLaw placement, but its job prospects overall are not as good. And in this economy, I think Miami has a leg up because of its access to the other markets, even if the jobs aren't BigLaw. And Miami holds its own market down. The extra $$ invested might be worth the increased job prospects.

http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf

I posted 2005 because it shows more typical employment patterns. Miami has lower attrition and fewer unemployed grads. Rutgers has it hard. The $$ you save will not offset the potentially wasted time.


Ultimately, I agree with PDaddy's conclusion, though I did not say it in my previous post. OP should go to Miami.

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Lomax
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Re: UMiami vs. Rutgers

Postby Lomax » Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:43 am

I voted for Miami for the same reasons as the last two posters + quality of life in South Florida over that in New Jersey. However, you should at least feel very confident of being able to stay in the top 50% of your class at Miami before deciding to go there. Hopefully you will soon have better options to choose from, and your decision won't come down to Miami and Rutgers after all.

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inSouthAmerica
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Re: UMiami vs. Rutgers

Postby inSouthAmerica » Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:24 pm

99.5% of the world would murder people to be "stuck in jersey" the garden state. id MUCH rather live in Jersey than Florida... until i turn 65, when i'm culturally obligated to move to west palm beach.

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PDaddy
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Re: UMiami vs. Rutgers

Postby PDaddy » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:50 pm

inSouthAmerica wrote:99.5% of the world would murder people to be "stuck in jersey" the garden state. id MUCH rather live in Jersey than Florida... until i turn 65, when i'm culturally obligated to move to west palm beach.


All I can do is :lol: at that one. If I'm going to live in NJ, I have to have a job. I'd rather be stuck in Florida where there are more beautiful women, the weather is nicer, the quality of life is better, there's more to do and housing is cheaper and better quality. And speaking of murder, the crime is at least no worse.

I'll say it again, look at the stats. Rutgers is a death trap right now. Even in 2005, comparing it to Miami was iffy, slightly better BigLaw prospects notwithstanding. Right now, Miami is a no-brainer. I don't even think OP should consider Rutgers. Miami has produced more top lawyers and has better networks and lawyers working in more fields. And Miami grads work in NY, and D.C., too, though not at a high rate. That's five major markets Miami grads have realistic access to (Miami, Orlando, ATL, D.C., NY), maybe six with a little luck (Charlotte).

Are you on Miami's waitlist right now or something? lol. Not intended as an insult, just asking.

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Lomax
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Re: UMiami vs. Rutgers

Postby Lomax » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:22 pm

PDaddy wrote:
inSouthAmerica wrote:99.5% of the world would murder people to be "stuck in jersey" the garden state. id MUCH rather live in Jersey than Florida... until i turn 65, when i'm culturally obligated to move to west palm beach.


All I can do is :lol: at that one.


He's inSouthAmerica - that might have something to do with it.

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PDaddy
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Re: UMiami vs. Rutgers

Postby PDaddy » Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:11 am

Lomax wrote:
PDaddy wrote:
inSouthAmerica wrote:99.5% of the world would murder people to be "stuck in jersey" the garden state. id MUCH rather live in Jersey than Florida... until i turn 65, when i'm culturally obligated to move to west palm beach.


All I can do is :lol: at that one.


He's inSouthAmerica - that might have something to do with it.


:lol:

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GeePee
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Re: UMiami vs. Rutgers

Postby GeePee » Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:21 am

Try to negotiate to get either school to remove its GPA requirement for your scholarship. That should be a bigger factor in getting you to attend than more $$. Since neither school has too much of a chance of placing into biglaw (Miami is a legal market on life support, Rutgers places somewhere around 8% into NYC firms, not all of which are market rate) you should really focus yourself on the location that you'd like to either pursue another type of legal job. When you're attending a Tier 2, you should be preparing yourself for a lesser scenario (say, somewhere around median; not terrible considering your debt will be low but not exactly a wealth of choices), but networking and working your ass off to make sure you are at the top of your class.

I hope that you'll eventually come to the correct decision for you. Good luck!

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Re: UMiami vs. Rutgers

Postby Sky'stheLimit » Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:24 am

PDaddy wrote:
rad law wrote:Remember, UF>FSU>Miami (roughly). In Miami and S. FL, UF and Miami are more evenly matched. While you can get a good job from Miami, expect to work very hard, because competition is fierce. I suspect it's not as easy as PDaddy makes it seem. At least you won't be paying sticker.

In terms of Miami's strength throughout the region, especially the mention of Atlanta, PDaddy must know something I don't, because I have heard everything to the contrary from many students and lawyers. In Atlanta, you have to compete with Emory/Vanderbilt, UGA/Alabama, and Georgia State grads, roughly in that order. All of these schools are ranked higher than Miami, and place better in Atlanta. In Charlotte, have fun with competing with the likes of Duke (though many grads leave the state), UNC, and Wake.

I strongly advise against going to Miami if you want to work anywhere other than Florida. PDaddy says that Miami grads can go Biglaw, and this is true for those with top grades, but these grads will probably end up working for the big firms in Florida, such as Holland and Knight, Greenberg Traurig, etc. While it's certainly possible to get a job in the region (at least theoretically), you better plan on making stellar grades.



Well, let me qualify my remarks. I am not saying it's "easy" for a Miami grad to work in Charlotte or ATL, but at least you can get a look. And Florida has three worthwhile markets Miami, Orlando (small), and Tampa (small). Rutgers grads have to compete with all of the big dogs for work in NY (and maybe Boston) and that leave them stuck in Jersey for the most part. Who wants that? I'd rather be stuck in Florida with the prospect of working in Miami or Orlando and still having a shot at ATL. Miami actually sends grads to D.C. and NY more often than N.C..

But I don't mean that Miami grads are prevalent in those other markets, just that it can be done.

In a typical economy (which we do not have, but is useful for analysis), Miami places 60% of its grads into firms, whereas Rutgers is a scary 40%. Rutgers does have typically higher bigLaw placement, but its job prospects overall are not as good. And in this economy, I think Miami has a leg up because of its access to the other markets, even if the jobs aren't BigLaw. And Miami holds its own market down. The extra $$ invested might be worth the increased job prospects.

http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf

I posted 2005 because it shows more typical employment patterns. Miami has lower attrition and fewer unemployed grads. Rutgers has it hard. The $$ you save will not offset the potentially wasted time.


It should be noted that 20-25% of Rutger's class will clerk. That might skew employment statistics, and at the very least does help get an idea of the school employment prospects. It seems like if you're 60%, you're going to get a respectable job, which is a whole lot more than schools similarly ranked can say.

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Lomax
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Re: UMiami vs. Rutgers

Postby Lomax » Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:39 am

GeePee wrote:Miami is a legal market on life support


:shock:

And what leads you to believe this?

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inSouthAmerica
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Re: UMiami vs. Rutgers

Postby inSouthAmerica » Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:07 pm

i am inSouthAmerica, it does have something to do with it, but you are still out of your mind if you think the quality of living in new jersey is worse than the quality of living in florida. grow up people, i grew up in the 5th wealthiest county (for populations over 250k) in the nation (morris) and the 4th richest is somerset. the number 1 richest county in the nation for counties with populations between 65k and 250k is Hunterdon. Trust me, New Jersey is absolutely heaven if youre doing it right, and as a Lawyer, you have a pretty high chance of doing it right.

though you do pay very high taxes for the privilege.

when the median household income of your county starts to approach 90k and you have access to the cultural and social opportunities of the greatest city in the world 45 minutes away via train then please feel free to :lol: . I'd hate to be stuck in florida.

oh and for your reference please feel free to peruse the wondrous options afforded by florida (oh right you wont find it on any of the lists which are absolutely dominated by new jersey, virginia, new york... you know states where you can send your kids to public school and reasonably expect them to come out educated). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highest-in ... ted_States

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Lomax
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Re: UMiami vs. Rutgers

Postby Lomax » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:31 pm

inSouthAmerica wrote:oh and for your reference please feel free to peruse the wondrous options afforded by florida (oh right you wont find it on any of the lists which are absolutely dominated by new jersey, virginia, new york... you know states where you can send your kids to public school and reasonably expect them to come out educated). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highest-in ... ted_States


Poor stuff. Counties in Florida being relatively enormous (Miami-Dade, FL: 2,431 sq mi; Morris, NJ: 481 sq mi) and including numerous areas with wildly varying average incomes in each likely has something to do with their average incomes being lower than some smaller and/or more sparsely populated counties up north. As for public schools - I don't need them and don't want to have to pay for them. I'm not having any kids.




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