To those reconsidering…

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Leeroy Jenkins
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Re: To those reconsidering…

Postby Leeroy Jenkins » Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:59 pm

postitnotes wrote:In case this expression of extreme insecurity and defensiveness is because I referred only to UVA in my post, UVA isn't alone in terms of employment prospects. I referred to UVA simply because I know that the other poster is paying sticker to go there.

I'm attending Brooklyn Law School @ sticker, what advice do you have for me?

postitnotes
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Re: To those reconsidering…

Postby postitnotes » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:01 am

Lxw wrote:
postitnotes wrote:In case this expression of extreme insecurity and defensiveness is because I referred only to UVA in my post, UVA isn't alone in terms of employment prospects. I referred to UVA simply because I know that the other poster is paying sticker to go there.

I'm attending Brooklyn Law School @ sticker, what advice do you have for me?


My real advice would be "bleeped" out. But, you are a 1L right, what is your current rank? (I might be confusing you with someone else.)

Leeroy Jenkins
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Re: To those reconsidering…

Postby Leeroy Jenkins » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:06 am

postitnotes wrote:
Lxw wrote:I'm attending Brooklyn Law School @ sticker, what advice do you have for me?

My real advice would be "bleeped" out

I can take it.

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GATORTIM
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Re: To those reconsidering…

Postby GATORTIM » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:20 am

Lxw wrote:
postitnotes wrote:
Lxw wrote:I'm attending Brooklyn Law School @ sticker, what advice do you have for me?

My real advice would be "bleeped" out

I can take it.


are you happy/satisfied with your decision to attend Brooklyn at sticker? I'm not being a dik, I'm just curious b/c I will likely be paying at or near sticker for lower t2 or t3.

your 'tar reminds me of the girl in the opening courtroom scene of the Devils Advocate.

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danquayle
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Re: To those reconsidering…

Postby danquayle » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:35 am

Lomax wrote:
jayzon wrote:
postitnotes wrote:People who are paying full sticker are pretty stupid ite.


Truth. I'd take a good scholly at a good (T1) school over sticker at much of the T14.


Why? Unless you have little confidence in your abilities and snaked your way into T14 consideration, you should feel that you can do well enough to achieve good grades and position yourself for a high-paying job upon graduation should you attend a T14 school. A high-paying job upon graduation, which is far more likely for you to obtain, all things being equal, coming out of a T14 school than it would be coming out of a random Tier 1 school, should allow you to pay off sticker debt in very short order, so long as you live frugally for a few years. After your debt is paid, you are in a much better position than you would have been having gone to a cheap "good school". At that point, the only advantage to having gone to a cheaper school would have been, potentially, a slightly better quality of life in those first few years out of school - so long as you were able to secure a job that allowed you to live better than frugally even without having to make loan payments.

Of course, if you figure there is a good chance of you not breaking the top half of your class at a lower-end T14 school, then perhaps a higher-end "rest of the field" Tier 1 school would be worth a look, for the sake of reducing risk at the expense of chance for reward.


Some people totally abhor the idea of having that kind of weight on their shoulders. Going to a cheaper school allows you to keep your options open. I know the stock answer to that is that you'll have more options out of a better school with more debt. This is only true in a certain sense. Its not true if you want a job that is low paying by default, takes a long time to develop, or is much higher risk. (Think non-profits, entrepeneurs, etc.)

With huge amounts of debt, you'll be bound to work for as long as it takes to pay that debt down. If you're lucky and get a big law job, that's only a few years. But even if, IF, you get that job, you're still wasting at least 3 or so years chasing a career you didn't want to begin with. And you'll be 3 years behind those people that jumped right into that career they wanted from the beginning. There's something to be said for the experience and networking gained from Big Law practice, but again, that's not universally applicable. It won't make much of a difference if you just want to open a business.

Choosing a law school is truly about your preferences. For 80-90% of law students, preference is prestige. That doesn't mean it always is.

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danquayle
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Re: To those reconsidering…

Postby danquayle » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:39 am

danquayle wrote:
Lomax wrote:
jayzon wrote:
postitnotes wrote:People who are paying full sticker are pretty stupid ite.


Truth. I'd take a good scholly at a good (T1) school over sticker at much of the T14.


Why? Unless you have little confidence in your abilities and snaked your way into T14 consideration, you should feel that you can do well enough to achieve good grades and position yourself for a high-paying job upon graduation should you attend a T14 school. A high-paying job upon graduation, which is far more likely for you to obtain, all things being equal, coming out of a T14 school than it would be coming out of a random Tier 1 school, should allow you to pay off sticker debt in very short order, so long as you live frugally for a few years. After your debt is paid, you are in a much better position than you would have been having gone to a cheap "good school". At that point, the only advantage to having gone to a cheaper school would have been, potentially, a slightly better quality of life in those first few years out of school - so long as you were able to secure a job that allowed you to live better than frugally even without having to make loan payments.

Of course, if you figure there is a good chance of you not breaking the top half of your class at a lower-end T14 school, then perhaps a higher-end "rest of the field" Tier 1 school would be worth a look, for the sake of reducing risk at the expense of chance for reward.


Some people totally abhor the idea of having that kind of weight on their shoulders. Going to a cheaper school allows you to keep your options open. I know the stock answer to that is that you'll have more options out of a better school with more debt. This is only true in a certain sense. Its not true if you want a job that is low paying by default, takes a long time to develop, or is much higher risk. (Think non-profits, entrepeneurs, etc.)

With huge amounts of debt, you'll be bound to work for as long as it takes to pay that debt down. If you're lucky and get a big law job, that's only a few years. But even if, IF, you get that job, you're still wasting at least 3 or so years chasing a career you didn't want to begin with. And you'll be 3 years behind those people that jumped right into that career they wanted from the beginning. There's something to be said for the experience and networking gained from Big Law practice, but again, that's not universally applicable. It won't make much of a difference if you just want to open a business.

Choosing a law school is truly about your preferences. For 80-90% of law students, preference is prestige. That doesn't mean it always is.


Shit, the easiest example is if you want to go to law school just to legitimize yourself as a political candidate. There are plenty of these types of people in law school. These type of people should almost, almost always go to the good local school. The only exceptions are Harvard/Yale. I wouldn't even say Stanford, if outside of the West.

Leeroy Jenkins
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Re: To those reconsidering…

Postby Leeroy Jenkins » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:40 am

danquayle wrote:Choosing a law school is truly about your preferences. For 80-90% of law students, preference is prestige. That doesn't mean it always is.

Seeing the number of people who go to TTT's and Pizza College of Law and unaccredited cesspools, I don't think 80-90% is anywhere representative of the proportion of law students who value prestige.

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TTH
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Re: To those reconsidering…

Postby TTH » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:42 am

Lomax wrote:
jayzon wrote:
postitnotes wrote:People who are paying full sticker are pretty stupid ite.


Truth. I'd take a good scholly at a good (T1) school over sticker at much of the T14.


Why? Unless you have little confidence in your abilities and snaked your way into T14 consideration, you should feel that you can do well enough to achieve good grades and position yourself for a high-paying job upon graduation should you attend a T14 school. A high-paying job upon graduation, which is far more likely for you to obtain, all things being equal, coming out of a T14 school than it would be coming out of a random Tier 1 school, should allow you to pay off sticker debt in very short order, so long as you live frugally for a few years. After your debt is paid, you are in a much better position than you would have been having gone to a cheap "good school". At that point, the only advantage to having gone to a cheaper school would have been, potentially, a slightly better quality of life in those first few years out of school - so long as you were able to secure a job that allowed you to live better than frugally even without having to make loan payments.

Of course, if you figure there is a good chance of you not breaking the top half of your class at a lower-end T14 school, then perhaps a higher-end "rest of the field" Tier 1 school would be worth a look, for the sake of reducing risk at the expense of chance for reward.


Tell all of that to people who took on all that debt paying sticker at T14s, graduating in 06 or 07 and got those biglaw jobs, then got laid off a year later and are considered untouchables even as firms are beginning to hire again. They did everything right and are fucked. Paying sticker anywhere is a very risky proposition.

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najumobi
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Re: To those reconsidering…

Postby najumobi » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:55 am

TipTravHoot wrote:Tell all of that to people who took on all that debt paying sticker at T14s, graduating in 06 or 07 and got those biglaw jobs, then got laid off a year later and are considered untouchables even as firms are beginning to hire again. They did everything right and are fucked. Paying sticker anywhere is a very risky proposition.

what do you make of 50% scholarships which would leave a student in about $100k-$130k of debt?

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TTH
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Re: To those reconsidering…

Postby TTH » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:57 am

najumobi wrote:
TipTravHoot wrote:Tell all of that to people who took on all that debt paying sticker at T14s, graduating in 06 or 07 and got those biglaw jobs, then got laid off a year later and are considered untouchables even as firms are beginning to hire again. They did everything right and are fucked. Paying sticker anywhere is a very risky proposition.

what do you make of 50% scholarships which would leave a student in about $100k-$130k of debt?


Similarly risky, to be sure, but at least somewhat less so than going 150+ for sticker.

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PDaddy
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Re: To those reconsidering…

Postby PDaddy » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:33 am

postitnotes wrote:
GATORTIM wrote:Isn't the majority of legal placement outside of OCI or OGI (whatever the hell we are calling it)?


No, in the past MVBP placed over 80% of their class via OCI/OGI. This is why I think this economy will hurt top ranked schools more compared to low ranked schools where their students couldn't rely on OCI/OGI in the first place. Top schools' students are not used to looking for jobs/not sure how and secondary markets may be more loyal towards regional schools/are not as rankings obsessed as primary markets.


I'm not in this debate, but, as an observer I have to say good, arguable theory!

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PDaddy
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Re: To those reconsidering…

Postby PDaddy » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:36 am

najumobi wrote:
what do you make of 50% scholarships which would leave a student in about $100k-$130k of debt?


I know, right? It's like the schools are in cahoots with the top firms on that. "We'll give students just enough money to entice them to school, but leave them with just enough debt to force them to seek biglaw, so the BigLaw pool is automatically fatter and gets the first pick of talent over PI, academia and gov. Rather perverted.

Tofu
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Re: To those reconsidering…

Postby Tofu » Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:23 am

danquayle wrote:Shit, the easiest example is if you want to go to law school just to legitimize yourself as a political candidate. There are plenty of these types of people in law school. These type of people should almost, almost always go to the good local school. The only exceptions are Harvard/Yale. I wouldn't even say Stanford, if outside of the West.


i'd think that stanford would be good for that, wouldn't it?

what about a school like georgetown or columbia?

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danquayle
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Re: To those reconsidering…

Postby danquayle » Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:50 am

Lxw wrote:
danquayle wrote:Choosing a law school is truly about your preferences. For 80-90% of law students, preference is prestige. That doesn't mean it always is.

Seeing the number of people who go to TTT's and Pizza College of Law and unaccredited cesspools, I don't think 80-90% is anywhere representative of the proportion of law students who value prestige.


You mistake their value for prestige with their accessibility to that prestige. I'm pretty sure most of those people would be going to Harvard if they could, even if they had to take out half a mil in loans.

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Aeroplane
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Re: To those reconsidering…

Postby Aeroplane » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:15 am

postitnotes wrote:UVA placing 50%+ into biglaw ITE? hahahahahahahaha. You are extremely delusional. Good luck at OCI. You can report back to me when you finish yours. The fact is there are not "plenty of jobs" for lawyers in America, period. Maybe you should read that New York Times article before you troll like an idiot for your school. Additionally, a lot of the less publicized jobs are in secondary markets, where employers are less likely to care about your "top 10 degree." Unlike what you think, a lot of employers do not look up rankings obsessively like TLSers do.
In my experience, local "biglaw" firms (what some might call midlaw) that pay $90-130K in smaller markets get more excited about T14 degrees than major market firms because T14 candidates who want to stay are relatively scarce in such places (unlike NYC which seems to be crawling with unemployed T14'ers at the moment). That's why career services emphasized to us that the best shot at a 1L SA job is in one's hometown (if it's not NY/DC/Chi/etc). If you go to the website of a Midwestern firm, and look up recent associates, you'll see that nearly all from non-top schools have latin honors, and other stuff like law review on their bio while many/most of the T14 grads just say "JD." It is true that employers don't look up rankings like TLS'ers, and therefore are probably not up to date on the subtleties of the 2009-2010 changes in GW and Indiana rankings. They don't necessarily see it as T14, and I'd imagine schools like Vandy/UT/UCLA might be included in the "top" category too. But they do treat what they consider "top" school candidates very favorably compared to local ones.

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Re: To those reconsidering…

Postby Kobe_Teeth » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:24 pm

PDaddy wrote:
najumobi wrote:
what do you make of 50% scholarships which would leave a student in about $100k-$130k of debt?


I know, right? It's like the schools are in cahoots with the top firms on that. "We'll give students just enough money to entice them to school, but leave them with just enough debt to force them to seek biglaw, so the BigLaw pool is automatically fatter and gets the first pick of talent over PI, academia and gov. Rather perverted.



+1.

I never gave a shit about BigLaw until I saw and actually computed how much law school will cost.

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ConMan345
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Re: To those reconsidering…

Postby ConMan345 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:33 pm

postitnotes wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
WTF are you putting it in quotation marks for? That's what it's called.

Nobody knows exactly what percentage of people got jobs at OGI, but reports of people getting offers below median and striking out above, probably in the 40-50% neighborhood.


Because most other schools don't call it OGI. I just find it an amusing acronym. "Nobody knows exactly. " VERSUS "I know how we've recently done at OGI"

I am willing to wait for actual data to gloat. I am extremely confident UVA will not place at least 50% into biglaw given the legal field's circumstances, let alone had 50% of their 2Ls scoring jobs via OGI, but we'll see who is right in due time.

In case this expression of extreme insecurity and defensiveness is because I referred only to UVA in my post, UVA isn't alone in terms of employment prospects. I referred to UVA simply because I know that the other poster is paying sticker to go there.


Not to butt in here, but when will we have this kind of data for schools?

Leeroy Jenkins
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Re: To those reconsidering…

Postby Leeroy Jenkins » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:34 pm

ConMan345 wrote:Not to butt in here, but when will we have this kind of data for schools?

As the academic year winds down.

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danquayle
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Re: To those reconsidering…

Postby danquayle » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:39 pm

For what its worth, I'm pretty sure OGI stands for On-Grounds Interviews, because UVA is obnoxious that way.

Kidding... I'm a fan of Jefferson's university. Even if it is just a little bit much.

HooCavalier
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Re: To those reconsidering…

Postby HooCavalier » Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:49 pm

danquayle wrote:For what its worth, I'm pretty sure OGI stands for On-Grounds Interviews, because UVA is obnoxious that way.

Kidding... I'm a fan of Jefferson's university. Even if it is just a little bit much.


UVa undergrad here ... "the grounds" rule. :D

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Lomax
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Re: To those reconsidering…

Postby Lomax » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:24 am

danquayle wrote:Some people totally abhor the idea of having that kind of weight on their shoulders. Going to a cheaper school allows you to keep your options open. I know the stock answer to that is that you'll have more options out of a better school with more debt. This is only true in a certain sense. Its not true if you want a job that is low paying by default, takes a long time to develop, or is much higher risk. (Think non-profits, entrepeneurs, etc.)

With huge amounts of debt, you'll be bound to work for as long as it takes to pay that debt down. If you're lucky and get a big law job, that's only a few years. But even if, IF, you get that job, you're still wasting at least 3 or so years chasing a career you didn't want to begin with. And you'll be 3 years behind those people that jumped right into that career they wanted from the beginning. There's something to be said for the experience and networking gained from Big Law practice, but again, that's not universally applicable. It won't make much of a difference if you just want to open a business.

Choosing a law school is truly about your preferences. For 80-90% of law students, preference is prestige. That doesn't mean it always is.


You definitely make some good points here, however, a lot of these low-paying jobs that might seem to demand a cheaper degree would actually demand a prestigious one just as much, as they are (now especially) often as competitive as many high-paying positions. For this reason, it may not be preferable or possible to jump right in with a cheaper degree than to slog out a few years and catch up with a prestigious one. Of course, there are some cases in which the applicant simply wants a law degree for whatever reason and does not care much about what it adds to his or her marketability in the legal job market. It is true that, in such a case, the cheaper school is usually going to be the better choice.

GATORTIM wrote:your 'tar reminds me of the girl in the opening courtroom scene of the Devils Advocate.


He's a huge hog-beast. He probably eats a thousand pancakes for breakfast. By the way, have you ever heard of a game called "special places"?




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