To those reconsidering… Forum

[GATORTIM]

going to law school due to uncertainty of job prospects and/or debt load. What is your plan? Will you stay put in your current job, explore other careers or continue your education in another field?

Although, I am fortunate to stable employment and decent salary, I cannot stand my freaking job or the industry in which I am employed. I am 100% certain that I will get out of her regardless if I go to law school or not. While waiting on application decisions and before I plop down my seat deposit, I am exploring every option/opportunity. I recently climbed out of debt and have some reservations about accumulating $100k in LS debt.

[postitnotes]

Accumulating 100k debt for a field you don't even know if you would like is not a good idea. If all you want to do is to "get out" of your industry, try going into another. Ex) If you aren't in the business sector, try lateraling into it. But you are right to be concerned. Even the NYT is freaking out now hehe.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/17/fashi ... er.html?em

[GATORTIM]

It's not that I am uncertain if want a career in law so much as it is that I am concerned about being handcuffed by debt coupled with minimal employment prospects following graduation. A career in law is the only route I have ever really considered, but I have gotten side-tracked a few times since undergrad. This is the first time in the last 6 years that LS is a viable option for me.

[avacado111]

i'm going to a t10 next year. Debt... here I come.

[Lomax]

It's not that I am uncertain if want a career in law so much as it is that I am concerned about being handcuffed by debt coupled with minimal employment prospects following graduation. A career in law is the only route I have ever really considered, but I have gotten side-tracked a few times since undergrad. This is the first time in the last 6 years that LS is a viable option for me.

You have but one life to live. Live it the way you want to. Chances are good that if you are mentally up to the challenge of law school and motivated enough (as you seem to be) to do what it takes to make full use of your ability while attending, you will find employment as an attorney and, at the very least, be able to stay afloat and make your loan payments until your progression down the career path leads you to where you ultimately want to be. If you simply cannot tolerate debt, then go someplace cheap. Perhaps there is a local law school that would give you in-state tuition, or another one that would give you a large scholarship offer? It is true in this modern world we live in that one needs to ensure one's financial security above all else, but that does not necessarily mean that one should not venture into the danger zone every now and then for the sake of achieving one's lifelong aspirations.

[postitnotes]

It's not that I am uncertain if want a career in law so much as it is that I am concerned about being handcuffed by debt coupled with minimal employment prospects following graduation. A career in law is the only route I have ever really considered, but I have gotten side-tracked a few times since undergrad. This is the first time in the last 6 years that LS is a viable option for me.

Can you retake the LSAT and get a scholarship at a good school?

People who are paying full sticker are pretty stupid ite.

[avacado111]

It's not that I am uncertain if want a career in law so much as it is that I am concerned about being handcuffed by debt coupled with minimal employment prospects following graduation. A career in law is the only route I have ever really considered, but I have gotten side-tracked a few times since undergrad. This is the first time in the last 6 years that LS is a viable option for me.

Can you retake the LSAT and get a scholarship at a good school?

People who are paying full sticker are pretty stupid ite.

not really, it depends on looking at it. Obviously, going to a lower t1, t2, t3, or t4 would be extremely stoopid.

[postitnotes]

It's not that I am uncertain if want a career in law so much as it is that I am concerned about being handcuffed by debt coupled with minimal employment prospects following graduation. A career in law is the only route I have ever really considered, but I have gotten side-tracked a few times since undergrad. This is the first time in the last 6 years that LS is a viable option for me.

Can you retake the LSAT and get a scholarship at a good school?

People who are paying full sticker are pretty stupid ite.

not really, it depends on looking at it. Obviously, going to a lower t1, t2, t3, or t4 would be extremely stoopid.

If you graduate below median at UVA, you may not get any job post-graduation. This of course depends on if you are IP or not, etc. Grades in law school are somewhat random too, so it's hard to "plan out" your results.

[Lomax]

not really, it depends on looking at it. Obviously, going to a lower t1, t2, t3, or t4 would be extremely stoopid.

Some lower-ranked public schools cost next to nothing in-state, and could be good choices for some relatively unambitious people simply interested in practicing law and making a living within their capabilities and without incurring heaps of debt. Of course, I would always recommend making the investment in money, however hard it may be to do so, given the more valuable investment in time and effort, and go to the best school possible within reason (according to a cost/benefit analysis). Best to keep as many doors open as possible, I think.

If you graduate below median at UVA, you may not get any job post-graduation. This of course depends on if you are IP or not, etc. Grades in law school are pretty random too, so it's hard to "plan out" your results.

From TLS: "As a Virginia Law graduate, it should not be too challenging to find work. The school enjoys a national reputation, and its at-graduation employment rate has been at around 96 percent (nine months later, 99 percent of students are employed). At any rate, the school’s alumni base might help offset any drop in the legal economy."

So maybe if you graduate in the bottom 4% of your class at UVA, you will be struggling for a few months... And if you happen to be dead last in your class, it might be back to the drawing board for you. However, I would hardly interpret this information as supporting an unqualified statement such as, "if you graduate below median at UVA, you may not get any job post-graduation."

[postitnotes]

not really, it depends on looking at it. Obviously, going to a lower t1, t2, t3, or t4 would be extremely stoopid.

Some lower-ranked public schools cost next to nothing in-state, and could be good choices for some relatively unambitious people simply interested in practicing law and making a living within their capabilities and without incurring heaps of debt. Of course, I would always recommend making the investment in money, however hard it may be to do so, given the more valuable investment in time and effort, and go to the best school possible within reason (according to a cost/benefit analysis). Best to keep as many doors open as possible, I think.

If you graduate below median at UVA, you may not get any job post-graduation. This of course depends on if you are IP or not, etc. Grades in law school are pretty random too, so it's hard to "plan out" your results.

From TLS: "As a Virginia Law graduate, it should not be too challenging to find work. The school enjoys a national reputation, and its at-graduation employment rate has been at around 96 percent (nine months later, 99 percent of students are employed). At any rate, the school’s alumni base might help offset any drop in the legal economy."

So maybe if you graduate in the bottom 4% of your class at UVA, you will be struggling for a few months... And if you happen to be dead last in your class, it might be back to the drawing board for you. However, I would hardly interpret this information as supporting an unqualified statement such as, "if you graduate below median at UVA, you may not get any job post-graduation."

You do realize that this is probably the class of 2008 or class of 2009 information, right? That is when practically every T14 had 98%+ employment rate at graduation. These classes' OCIs were in 2006 and 2007. Things have gotten A LOT worse in the past year. A UVA 2L said that only around 1/3 of UVA 2Ls got jobs via OCI this year, but alright, whatever.

You should read the New York Times article I linked above.

[avacado111]

It's not that I am uncertain if want a career in law so much as it is that I am concerned about being handcuffed by debt coupled with minimal employment prospects following graduation. A career in law is the only route I have ever really considered, but I have gotten side-tracked a few times since undergrad. This is the first time in the last 6 years that LS is a viable option for me.

Can you retake the LSAT and get a scholarship at a good school?

People who are paying full sticker are pretty stupid ite.

not really, it depends on looking at it. Obviously, going to a lower t1, t2, t3, or t4 would be extremely stoopid.

If you graduate below median at UVA, you may not get any job post-graduation. This of course depends on if you are IP or not, etc. Grades in law school are somewhat random too, so it's hard to "plan out" your results.

Grades are not that random. Also, I'm a URM, so I think that helps me a lot. Plus, if you look at the unemployment rate (at UVA. you can access this info on the LSAC UVA page) the number of people unemployed at UVA was about 10-15 nine months after graduation. I am hedging my bets. Plus, I love the law and I would be happy even if I'm not ranking in tons of $$.

WTF. Everyone know's I'm going to uva. LOL

[danquayle]

not really, it depends on looking at it. Obviously, going to a lower t1, t2, t3, or t4 would be extremely stoopid.

Some lower-ranked public schools cost next to nothing in-state, and could be good choices for some relatively unambitious people simply interested in practicing law and making a living within their capabilities and without incurring heaps of debt. Of course, I would always recommend making the investment in money, however hard it may be to do so, given the more valuable investment in time and effort, and go to the best school possible within reason (according to a cost/benefit analysis). Best to keep as many doors open as possible, I think.

If you graduate below median at UVA, you may not get any job post-graduation. This of course depends on if you are IP or not, etc. Grades in law school are pretty random too, so it's hard to "plan out" your results.

From TLS: "As a Virginia Law graduate, it should not be too challenging to find work. The school enjoys a national reputation, and its at-graduation employment rate has been at around 96 percent (nine months later, 99 percent of students are employed). At any rate, the school’s alumni base might help offset any drop in the legal economy."

So maybe if you graduate in the bottom 4% of your class at UVA, you will be struggling for a few months... And if you happen to be dead last in your class, it might be back to the drawing board for you. However, I would hardly interpret this information as supporting an unqualified statement such as, "if you graduate below median at UVA, you may not get any job post-graduation."

Those TLS profiles are out of date and they were overly optimistic to begin with. Virginia is still top notch, but I know plenty of graduates from there that are struggling. Besides, tons of schools manipulate their employment stats and those stats rarely detail the type of work reliably. I guarantee even schools like Buffalo and South Carolina are boasting employment at 9 month percentages in the mid 90s.

[najumobi]

Those TLS profiles are out of date and they were overly optimistic to begin with. Virginia is still top notch, but I know plenty of graduates from there that are struggling. Besides, tons of schools manipulate their employment stats and those stats rarely detail the type of work reliably. I guarantee even schools like Buffalo and South Carolina are boasting employment at 9 month percentages in the mid 90s.

i think some of the best criterion to evaluate job placement for schools' graduates are the percentage of graduates employed by graduation and percentage of graduates in the private sector reporting their salary (both stats can be attained through USNEWS). higher ranked schools seem to have higher numbers for these stats than lower ranked schools do.

i've found bar passage rate to be utterly useless and percentage of graduates in legal jobs to be only marginally useful.

[Lomax]

You do realize that this is probably the class of 2008 or class of 2009 information, right? That is when practically every T14 had 98%+ employment rate at graduation. These classes' OCIs were in 2006 and 2007. Things have gotten A LOT worse in the past year. A UVA 2L said that only around 1/3 of UVA 2Ls got jobs via OCI this year, but alright, whatever.

If it was class of 2009 information, then that was as bad as it can possibly get. The Dow was at 6600 in March 2009 and 8200 in May 2009. It is now at 10600 and climbing fairly steadily. I know not what the future holds, but the mood then was certainly at rock bottom across all sectors of the economy, and if numbers even close to those can be produced from UVA in such circumstances, then I would think it safe to say that graduating from there should almost certainly grant one employment - perhaps not via OCI, but somehow or other.

You should read the New York Times article I linked above.

I have read it, and many others in one of multiple threads dedicated to it recently read it. You should read the rebuttal to it by the second-year lawyer who posts here frequently. It was quite well written and did nicely to highlight the many reasons why this specific article makes lots of noise but is, for the most part, of little use. I will not recount here.

Besides, tons of schools manipulate their employment stats and those stats rarely detail the type of work reliably. I guarantee even schools like Buffalo and South Carolina are boasting employment at 9 month percentages in the mid 90s.

That is a good point that brings up another good point. Of course one will be able to find work after graduating from law school, pretty much regardless of which law school one attends. Whether or not that work will be to one's liking is another issue entirely. If Buffalo is reporting mid-90s in employment statistics, then I think it would be fair to assume that some of those included in the group identified as "employed" are working in far less than ideal jobs, perhaps not even in law. However, I figure that a law degree should, for many people - especially freshly graduating undergraduates with nothing of note to their names - offer an avenue to a stable means of making a living - any living - in hard times such as these that may not be there otherwise. In some cases, of course, this proves to be untrue.

Also, consider this: perhaps those who recently graduated from UVA and ended up unemployed actually had reasonably-paying opportunities available to them, but simply decided to pass up on offers because they can afford to be choosy and wait for jobs that not only pay well but also suit their sets of interests?

[thesealocust]

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[Lomax]

People who are paying full sticker are pretty stupid ite.

Truth. I'd take a good scholly at a good (T1) school over sticker at much of the T14.

Why? Unless you have little confidence in your abilities and snaked your way into T14 consideration, you should feel that you can do well enough to achieve good grades and position yourself for a high-paying job upon graduation should you attend a T14 school. A high-paying job upon graduation, which is far more likely for you to obtain, all things being equal, coming out of a T14 school than it would be coming out of a random Tier 1 school, should allow you to pay off sticker debt in very short order, so long as you live frugally for a few years. After your debt is paid, you are in a much better position than you would have been having gone to a cheap "good school". At that point, the only advantage to having gone to a cheaper school would have been, potentially, a slightly better quality of life in those first few years out of school - so long as you were able to secure a job that allowed you to live better than frugally even without having to make loan payments.

Of course, if you figure there is a good chance of you not breaking the top half of your class at a lower-end T14 school, then perhaps a higher-end "rest of the field" Tier 1 school would be worth a look, for the sake of reducing risk at the expense of chance for reward.

[ruleser]

People who are paying full sticker are pretty stupid ite.

Truth. I'd take a good scholly at a good (T1) school over sticker at much of the T14.

Why? Unless you have little confidence in your abilities and snaked your way into T14 consideration, you should feel that you can do well enough to achieve good grades and position yourself for a high-paying job upon graduation should you attend a T14 school. A high-paying job upon graduation, which is far more likely for you to obtain, all things being equal, coming out of a T14 school than it would be coming out of a random Tier 1 school, should allow you to pay off sticker debt in very short order, so long as you live frugally for a few years. After your debt is paid, you are in a much better position than you would have been having gone to a cheap "good school". At that point, the only advantage to having gone to a cheaper school would have been, potentially, a slightly better quality of life in those first few years out of school - so long as you were able to secure a job that allowed you to live better than frugally even without having to make loan payments.

Of course, if you figure there is a good chance of you not breaking the top half of your class at a lower-end T14 school, then perhaps a higher-end "rest of the field" Tier 1 school would be worth a look, for the sake of reducing risk at the expense of chance for reward.

Honestly. If you go to Cornell and finish top 10 in the class, do you really think you'll have no job? A top school puts destiny in your hands.

[postitnotes]

That's the stupidest shit I've ever heard. We'll still probably place 50%+ in to big law, then a large percentage into govt, public intereset, and clerkships. After that come people who go to smaller firms that don't pay market. If you're under median at UVA, biglaw looks iffy - but employment probably won't looking problematic until you drop below a 3.0, which is roughly the bottom 10-15%.

Even then, there are plenty of jobs that would be eager to get a UVA law graduate with interviewing skills and/or promise as a lawyer even with bad grades. They just aren't the most desirable or publicized jobs.

UVA placing 50%+ into biglaw ITE? hahahahahahahaha. You are extremely delusional. Good luck at OCI. You can report back to me when you finish yours. The fact is there are not "plenty of jobs" for lawyers in America, period. Maybe you should read that New York Times article before you troll like an idiot for your school. Additionally, a lot of the less publicized jobs are in secondary markets, where employers are less likely to care about your "top 10 degree." Unlike what you think, a lot of employers do not look up rankings obsessively like TLSers do.

[thesealocust]

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[postitnotes]

That's the stupidest shit I've ever heard. We'll still probably place 50%+ in to big law, then a large percentage into govt, public intereset, and clerkships. After that come people who go to smaller firms that don't pay market. If you're under median at UVA, biglaw looks iffy - but employment probably won't looking problematic until you drop below a 3.0, which is roughly the bottom 10-15%.

Even then, there are plenty of jobs that would be eager to get a UVA law graduate with interviewing skills and/or promise as a lawyer even with bad grades. They just aren't the most desirable or publicized jobs.

UVA placing 50%+ into biglaw ITE? hahahahahahahaha. You are extremely delusional. Good luck at OCI. You can report back to me when you finish yours. The fact is there are not "plenty of jobs" for lawyers in America, period. Maybe you should read that New York Times article before you troll like an idiot for your school. Additionally, a lot of the less publicized jobs are in secondary markets, where employers are less likely to care about your "top 10 degree." Unlike what you think, a lot of employers do not look up rankings obsessively like TLSers do.

Who the fuck are you? I go to my school, I talk to people here, I know how we've recently done at OGI.

Oh really, so what percentage scored biglaw jobs at "OGI"?

[thesealocust]

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[postitnotes]

If it was class of 2009 information, then that was as bad as it can possibly get. The Dow was at 6600 in March 2009 and 8200 in May 2009. It is now at 10600 and climbing fairly steadily. I know not what the future holds, but the mood then was certainly at rock bottom across all sectors of the economy, and if numbers even close to those can be produced from UVA in such circumstances, then I would think it safe to say that graduating from there should almost certainly grant one employment - perhaps not via OCI, but somehow or other.

Class of 2009 had their OCI in 2007. Many were probably deferred for over a year or laid off later on. People are just hiring far, far fewer ite. Also, employment is a lagging variable.

[GATORTIM]

Isn't the majority of legal placement outside of OCI or OGI (whatever the hell we are calling it)?

[postitnotes]

WTF are you putting it in quotation marks for? That's what it's called.

Nobody knows exactly what percentage of people got jobs at OGI, but reports of people getting offers below median and striking out above, probably in the 40-50% neighborhood.

Because most other schools don't call it OGI. I just find it an amusing acronym. "Nobody knows exactly. " VERSUS "I know how we've recently done at OGI"

I am willing to wait for actual data to gloat. I am extremely confident UVA will not place at least 50% into biglaw given the legal field's circumstances, let alone had 50% of their 2Ls scoring jobs via OGI, but we'll see who is right in due time.

In case this expression of extreme insecurity and defensiveness is because I referred only to UVA in my post, UVA isn't alone in terms of employment prospects. I referred to UVA simply because I know that the other poster is paying sticker to go there.

[postitnotes]

Isn't the majority of legal placement outside of OCI or OGI (whatever the hell we are calling it)?

No, in the past MVBP placed over 80% of their class via OCI/OGI. This is why I think this economy will hurt top ranked schools more compared to low ranked schools where their students couldn't rely on OCI/OGI in the first place. Top schools' students are not used to looking for jobs/not sure how and secondary markets may be more loyal towards regional schools/are not as rankings obsessed as primary markets.