T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

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woeisme
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby woeisme » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:15 am

postitnotes wrote:
woeisme wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
woeisme wrote:It's interesting because generally NYC is the hardest legal market for law students to crack into.

Historically this is totally untrue. Before the recession hit, grads from every T20 school with good grades had a solid shot at NYC firms. There are so many of them, and when they're actually hiring, they pull from everywhere. The University of Texas was placing kids in NYC, and probably not placing more than they did because so many of those who chose to go to school at Texas wanted to stay in the state when they graduated.

Cornell would place a shitload of grads into NYC because people who knew they wanted NYC went there. But that was also true for Columbia, NYU, and Fordham. Now there's at least a temporary pullback in hiring, and I think it appears to be hurting Cornell more than most because Cornell was so heavy with kids going there with the hopes of NYC placement afterward, and firms are not going nearly as far down the list.

Columbia still does well because it's the best school in the NYC market, the other T14s still do okay because their grads have other places to go than NYC, but Cornell gets screwed because, even though it's in the T14, it's only the third-best school in its market, and right now there's not enough hiring to justify it. People who go there are either 1) intending to do something other than NYC BigLaw, which is probably not many, 2) taking a scholarship, so at least they're getting their education cheap, or 3) betting hiring will pick back up to older levels by the time they graduate.

But if you go to another T14 at Cornell's level you have more options than just NYC when you graduate, so if things haven't recovered you at least have multiple markets to shoot for.


This actually doesn't make any sense. I'll just touch on a couple things.

(1) Historically it has been true that NYC is the most difficult to get and you seem to acknowledge that by emphasizing the need to have top grades. It has just been traditionally seen as the most prestigious legal market, with DC a close second. Using your example, if you go to UT, you'd need substantially better grades to get a job in New York than you would to get a job in Texas.

(2) You seem to suggest that because NYC doesn't have as much need for hiring it hurts Cornell more than other places. But EVERYWHERE has less of a need for hiring. So let's take Northwestern or Michigan. These are the second or third best schools for Chicago. Chicago, like New York, has less hiring needs now. So these schools also suffer with their respective markets. And at any school, students are able to pursue other markets of interest or other markets where they have ties. I see what you're trying to say, I just don't think it's really true.


Just wanted to cut in and say that historically NYC was one of the easiest markets to break into. I've seen GPA cutoffs for schools in the MVP for OCI, and the GPA cut-offs were lower for NYC than for Chicago and DC. DC was/is much harder to break into than NYC. You could be a good deal sub-median and still pull NYC biglaw in the past. By the way, Michigan typically sends more into NYC than Chicago. Even now, I'd say that NYC is one of the easiest markets to break into. My friend who is below median at MVP got callbacks in NYC but locked out of every other primary market. The problem is that Cornell isn't just cut-off by Columbia/NYU in NYC, but firms seemed to have dug deeper into the various other T14s that also fed into NYC but were not within the state. That said, I won't comment on comparing every school's OCI until actual data was released, but I wanted to correct this notion that NYC was the 'hardest market' to break into, because it wasn't. It was probably the easiest primary to break into.


Easiest from top schools with top grades, sure, but that's because it's also the largest. I think we're saying the same thing. As for cut-off GPAs between T14s I'm not saying you're wrong (even though I think you are), ... but I have no idea why you'd think this. Have you seen data I haven't? If so, please share!

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mbw
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby mbw » Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:53 am

woeisme wrote:
rad law wrote:
woeisme wrote:
rad law wrote:Have fun with this for many months of the year.


wtf is that?


That is Cornell. That is the miserable cold.


Where in Cornell? That doesn't look familiar at all. That's not at all what it looks like lol.

EDIT: Oh, I know where that is. That's not really near the law school, though. But I guess the weather point would still stand. I mean, yeah, if you don't like winters, don't go to Cornell. I can tell you that our climate is better than Chicago's (UC and NU) though. It's comparable to Mich and only slightly colder than NYU/Columbia. But, anyway, don't be such a puss, it's not that bad at all. :D


And, we've had, what? A whopping seven inches of snow thus far this season. NYC has had three times that. Damn it, I came to Ithaca for the snow. I want a refund!

I almost stepped on a caterpillar on the sidewalk yesterday. In January. WTF?

NY88
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby NY88 » Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:24 pm

Cornell is about the same distance from Boston as it is from NYC so there are other markets for Cornell graduates. Cornell's alumni network is very strong in NYC partially due to the medical center. The school produces the most doctors in the United States and is known internationally. And it is part of the League. Easiest Ivy to get into hardest to get out of.
The winters in Cornell can be no worse than the summer smog in LA!
UCLA is a great school, no doubt, but I think the Cornell degree would carry a little more weight if you leave California.

irishman86
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby irishman86 » Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:56 pm

I'd go to Cornell because:
1) NYC is doing better than LA.
2) Heard horror stories about UCLA's OCI.
3) UC tuition is going over 50k in state in the next 2 years.

09042014
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby 09042014 » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:03 pm

While its the worst school in the T13, Cornell is still a good school.

woeisme
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby woeisme » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:17 am

Desert Fox wrote:While its the worst school in the T13, Cornell is still a good school.


:roll: Says the guy who didn't get in!

Ha, just playing. I know others at NU who didn't get into Cornell (and some here who didn't get into NU). So all us DCNG folk are friends in my book (though I still maintain that MVPB is barely a step above). :D

hiro86
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby hiro86 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:24 am

woeisme wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
woeisme wrote:It's interesting because generally NYC is the hardest legal market for law students to crack into.

Historically this is totally untrue. Before the recession hit, grads from every T20 school with good grades had a solid shot at NYC firms. There are so many of them, and when they're actually hiring, they pull from everywhere. The University of Texas was placing kids in NYC, and probably not placing more than they did because so many of those who chose to go to school at Texas wanted to stay in the state when they graduated.

Cornell would place a shitload of grads into NYC because people who knew they wanted NYC went there. But that was also true for Columbia, NYU, and Fordham. Now there's at least a temporary pullback in hiring, and I think it appears to be hurting Cornell more than most because Cornell was so heavy with kids going there with the hopes of NYC placement afterward, and firms are not going nearly as far down the list.

Columbia still does well because it's the best school in the NYC market, the other T14s still do okay because their grads have other places to go than NYC, but Cornell gets screwed because, even though it's in the T14, it's only the third-best school in its market, and right now there's not enough hiring to justify it. People who go there are either 1) intending to do something other than NYC BigLaw, which is probably not many, 2) taking a scholarship, so at least they're getting their education cheap, or 3) betting hiring will pick back up to older levels by the time they graduate.

But if you go to another T14 at Cornell's level you have more options than just NYC when you graduate, so if things haven't recovered you at least have multiple markets to shoot for.


This actually doesn't make any sense. I'll just touch on a couple things.

(1) Historically it has been true that NYC is the most difficult to get and you seem to acknowledge that by emphasizing the need to have top grades. It has just been traditionally seen as the most prestigious legal market, with DC a close second. Using your example, if you go to UT, you'd need substantially better grades to get a job in New York than you would to get a job in Texas.

(2) You seem to suggest that because NYC doesn't have as much need for hiring it hurts Cornell more than other places. But EVERYWHERE has less of a need for hiring. So let's take Northwestern or Michigan. These are the second or third best schools for Chicago. Chicago, like New York, has less hiring needs now. So these schools also suffer with their respective markets. And at any school, students are able to pursue other markets of interest or other markets where they have ties. I see what you're trying to say, I just don't think it's really true.

I have talked to a lot of 2Ls/3Ls(from various T14s) lately about big law placement. Almost all of them told me that the NYC market was the easiest market to get big law in for their class. So, I'm not sure where you are coming up with your theory about NYC being the most difficult.

09042014
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby 09042014 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:24 am

woeisme wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:While its the worst school in the T13, Cornell is still a good school.


:roll: Says the guy who didn't get in!

Ha, just playing. I know others at NU who didn't get into Cornell (and some here who didn't get into NU). So all us DCNG folk are friends in my book (though I still maintain that MVPB is barely a step above). :D


I think G is a step down, but I don't think MVPB is a step up. At V100 placement Cornell is better than M and V. NCD are helped by having small class sizes.

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Cleareyes
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby Cleareyes » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:41 am

beesknees wrote: And the HYS kids are laughing at everyone.


It's true. We call everything ranked 4 or lower "Lol" schools.

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Doritos
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby Doritos » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:43 am

woeisme wrote: (though I still maintain that MVPB is barely a step above). :D


Image

fortissimo
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby fortissimo » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:59 am

hiro86 wrote:
woeisme wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
woeisme wrote:It's interesting because generally NYC is the hardest legal market for law students to crack into.

Historically this is totally untrue. Before the recession hit, grads from every T20 school with good grades had a solid shot at NYC firms. There are so many of them, and when they're actually hiring, they pull from everywhere. The University of Texas was placing kids in NYC, and probably not placing more than they did because so many of those who chose to go to school at Texas wanted to stay in the state when they graduated.

Cornell would place a shitload of grads into NYC because people who knew they wanted NYC went there. But that was also true for Columbia, NYU, and Fordham. Now there's at least a temporary pullback in hiring, and I think it appears to be hurting Cornell more than most because Cornell was so heavy with kids going there with the hopes of NYC placement afterward, and firms are not going nearly as far down the list.

Columbia still does well because it's the best school in the NYC market, the other T14s still do okay because their grads have other places to go than NYC, but Cornell gets screwed because, even though it's in the T14, it's only the third-best school in its market, and right now there's not enough hiring to justify it. People who go there are either 1) intending to do something other than NYC BigLaw, which is probably not many, 2) taking a scholarship, so at least they're getting their education cheap, or 3) betting hiring will pick back up to older levels by the time they graduate.

But if you go to another T14 at Cornell's level you have more options than just NYC when you graduate, so if things haven't recovered you at least have multiple markets to shoot for.


This actually doesn't make any sense. I'll just touch on a couple things.

(1) Historically it has been true that NYC is the most difficult to get and you seem to acknowledge that by emphasizing the need to have top grades. It has just been traditionally seen as the most prestigious legal market, with DC a close second. Using your example, if you go to UT, you'd need substantially better grades to get a job in New York than you would to get a job in Texas.

(2) You seem to suggest that because NYC doesn't have as much need for hiring it hurts Cornell more than other places. But EVERYWHERE has less of a need for hiring. So let's take Northwestern or Michigan. These are the second or third best schools for Chicago. Chicago, like New York, has less hiring needs now. So these schools also suffer with their respective markets. And at any school, students are able to pursue other markets of interest or other markets where they have ties. I see what you're trying to say, I just don't think it's really true.

I have talked to a lot of 2Ls/3Ls(from various T14s) lately about big law placement. Almost all of them told me that the NYC market was the easiest market to get big law in for their class. So, I'm not sure where you are coming up with your theory about NYC being the most difficult.


+1. My 2L friend at Mich (non URM) with sub-median grades (and one C grade (gasp!) 1L year) got callbacks in NYC but locked out everywhere else. (This person is pretty active EC wise in law school so that might have helped, but NYC firms were more forgiving of the GPA.)

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jay115
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby jay115 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:45 am

NY88 wrote:Cornell is about the same distance from Boston as it is from NYC so there are other markets for Cornell graduates. Cornell's alumni network is very strong in NYC partially due to the medical center. The school produces the most doctors in the United States and is known internationally. And it is part of the League. Easiest Ivy to get into hardest to get out of.
The winters in Cornell can be no worse than the summer smog in LA!
UCLA is a great school, no doubt, but I think the Cornell degree would carry a little more weight if you leave California.


I agree with this save the Ithica winters > LA summers. First of all, UCLA isn't in central Los Angeles but in adjacent Westwood, which is closer to the California coastline. The ocean breeze pushes the smog inland towards the L.A. basin, if you're familiar with the geography, and never really hits UCLA hard. I went to UCLA last summer to decide whether I wanted to fire an ED bullet there (which I did) and the LA summers are nowhere as humid as in the South.

I go to Cornell every year for their Mock Trial invitational, and not only is Ithica a very sad and very lonely town - three bars and their most publicized activity is ice hockey - but there's absolutely NOTHING to do outside of Cornell itself. Of course, Cornell has a gorgeous law building, fantastic program, and is of course an ivy league school. On balance, I personally would choose (and chose) UCLA over Cornell, but my decision had more to do with my desire to go to UCLA rather than not go to Cornell, if that makes sense.

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thelawguy777
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby thelawguy777 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:35 am

beesknees wrote:I think Cornell gets a lot of hate on here because they're T14, but have the lowest medians of that set and is looked down upon by T14ers because Cornell allows those 167/3.67 to get that T14 distinction. It all depends on the poster's POV. Those who are choosing between CCN, tend to make similar snide comments about MVP because its T6 vs T10. And the HYS kids are laughing at everyone.


Ha! An ironic, funny, and excellent analysis.

Alexandria
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby Alexandria » Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:48 am

fortissimo wrote:
+1. My 2L friend at Mich (non URM) with sub-median grades (and one C grade (gasp!) 1L year) got callbacks in NYC but locked out everywhere else. (This person is pretty active EC wise in law school so that might have helped, but NYC firms were more forgiving of the GPA.)


Yeah, it's pretty common knowledge that NYC is the easiest market. Not only do they not care about having ties to the city, but there are so many firms and there is such a huge range of selectivity. Sure, the top NYC firms are hard to get into, but the lower ranked ones are not, even for people below median at T10s (OK, I don't know how the economy is affecting this... I'm thinking class of 2010 and earlier). I know people with absolute disasters 1L year who got NYC.




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