T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

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pinkhearts
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T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby pinkhearts » Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:56 pm

Is there a reason that there seems to be some sort of fervent Cornell hate on TLS?

I have admits to UCLA and Cornell and I am seriously confused by all the talk on here. Initially I understood law school as sort of T-14 or bust, but now it keeps getting pared down further and further. Are Cornell and UCLA going to be functionally the same? Does one have greater reach? Did Cornell break up with someone on their birthday or something?

I appreciate everyone's insight here.

dakatz
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby dakatz » Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:00 pm

People wrongly hate on it because it is the "easiest" to get into of the T14 schools, with the lowest median figures. However, someone put it very well in a previous thread: It isn't a great school because its in the T14, its in the T14 because its a great school. So take the Cornell "hate" with a grain of salt. Also, keep in mind that many people on here are the absolute best applicants who can get into the very top schools. Relative to these schools, Cornell seems worse, so they hate on it. So just understand the skewed perspective of many people on this site. But on the other hand, UCLA is ranked so close to Cornell that there isn't much of a difference. Both have strong national reputations, although their pulls are greater on their respective coasts.
Last edited by dakatz on Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

pinkhearts
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby pinkhearts » Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:02 pm

thanks.

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beesknees
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby beesknees » Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:05 pm

.
Last edited by beesknees on Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

galahad85
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby galahad85 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:10 pm

predetermined wrote:ITE, it appears to be a lot harder to get a biglaw job from Cornell


Is there actual evidence for this? Prior to the recession, Cornell's biglaw numbers were on par with some of the T10. So why are we assuming that it's been hit worse than the others?

cubswin
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby cubswin » Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:17 pm

galahad85 wrote:
predetermined wrote:ITE, it appears to be a lot harder to get a biglaw job from Cornell


Is there actual evidence for this? Prior to the recession, Cornell's biglaw numbers were on par with some of the T10. So why are we assuming that it's been hit worse than the others?


I haven't seen it, but I expect that quantitative data backing all the anecdotes either exists somewhere or will be available sometime soon. Cornell had really impressive stats, 80% of its class went into big law a few years ago IIRC. Since there have been stories about a few Harvard grads getting the shaft, and people below median at CCN having trouble, it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect Cornell's historically exceptional placement to take a fairly substantial hit.

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rayiner
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby rayiner » Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:23 pm

galahad85 wrote:
predetermined wrote:ITE, it appears to be a lot harder to get a biglaw job from Cornell


Is there actual evidence for this? Prior to the recession, Cornell's biglaw numbers were on par with some of the T10. So why are we assuming that it's been hit worse than the others?


No, it's all conjecture and hearsay.

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S de Garmeaux
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby S de Garmeaux » Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:24 pm

and you have to live in ithaca

postitnotes
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby postitnotes » Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:02 pm

sdegarmo wrote:and you have to live in ithaca


Ithaca >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Los Angeles.


God, I hate LA. People who like living in LA are West Coast "guidos."

Rawlsian
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby Rawlsian » Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:08 pm

Ithaca is gorgeous (no pun), but isolated. Also, their undergrad seems kinda large relative to their grad and professional programs. Normally that wouldn't be that big a deal, but like I said, you'd be isolated and sharing a small area with all of them...

That said, Cornell looks like a fantastic school and I hope that I get accepted.

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Stringer Bell
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby Stringer Bell » Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:17 pm

galahad85 wrote:
predetermined wrote:ITE, it appears to be a lot harder to get a biglaw job from Cornell


Is there actual evidence for this? Prior to the recession, Cornell's biglaw numbers were on par with some of the T10. So why are we assuming that it's been hit worse than the others?


These are just the rumors floated around on here. They may be true but there is no hard data to back it up. The reasoning to justify it isn't because they're ranked 13th, but because they're so dependent on NYC placement and below several schools in the pecking order for that market. It's kind of like UIUC supposedly getting hit real hard because they rely on Chicago scraps that are now not getting past U of C, Michigan and NU.

galahad85
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby galahad85 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:20 pm

cubswin wrote:
galahad85 wrote:
predetermined wrote:ITE, it appears to be a lot harder to get a biglaw job from Cornell


Is there actual evidence for this? Prior to the recession, Cornell's biglaw numbers were on par with some of the T10. So why are we assuming that it's been hit worse than the others?


I haven't seen it, but I expect that quantitative data backing all the anecdotes either exists somewhere or will be available sometime soon. Cornell had really impressive stats, 80% of its class went into big law a few years ago IIRC. Since there have been stories about a few Harvard grads getting the shaft, and people below median at CCN having trouble, it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect Cornell's historically exceptional placement to take a fairly substantial hit.


Yes, of course it will take a hit - but what I'm wondering is why people think it will take such a bigger hit than schools with similar pre-recession placement (UVA, Duke, NU...)

It really seems like empty speculation, reinforced only by the echo chamber that is TLS.

galahad85
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby galahad85 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:21 pm

Stringer Bell wrote:
galahad85 wrote:
predetermined wrote:ITE, it appears to be a lot harder to get a biglaw job from Cornell


Is there actual evidence for this? Prior to the recession, Cornell's biglaw numbers were on par with some of the T10. So why are we assuming that it's been hit worse than the others?


These are just the rumors floated around on here. They may be true but there is no hard data to back it up. The reasoning to justify it isn't because they're ranked 13th, but because they're so dependent on NYC placement and below several schools in the pecking order for that market. It's kind of like UIUC supposedly getting hit real hard because they rely on Chicago scraps that are now not getting past U of C, Michigan and NU.


That makes some sense.

But we have to keep in mind that Cornell =/= UIUC

(and NYC =/= Chicago)

woeisme
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby woeisme » Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:38 am

predetermined wrote:ITE, it appears to be a lot harder to get a biglaw job from Cornell (and Gtown, for that matter) than from the rest of the T14. And their clerkship/academia placement is considerably worse ITE or not.


I'm fairly positive that this information is inaccurate. Did you read this somewhere? If so, provide a link. I go to Cornell and as far as I can tell, our biglaw placement is pretty much on par with the rest of the bottom half of the T14 (read BPMVDCNG).

predetermined wrote:After the T10, you're better off attending the best ranked school in the region you'd like to practice.


I'm also unclear on why you're saying this. You do know what T14 means, right? There is an actual meaning behind it - it is made up of the 14 schools that have all been ranked within the top ten in the past 10 or so years. Conventional wisdom is that these are the national schools. The T10 distinction is faulty because that changes year to year. For example, a few years ago Northwestern was not T10, though this year it is. Same thing with Duke. I think it makes the most sense to think of schools as Y-HS-CCN-BMVP-DCNG.

OP, my personal advice based on what I've gathered is that you should pick UCLA if you plan to work in California. If you're undecided or plan to work elsewhere, I'd head to Cornell. Are you actually at this deciding point or are you waiting on others?

EDIT: This also is assuming that you like each school equally. There is room for personal preference here.

woeisme
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby woeisme » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:15 am

predetermined wrote:Yes, I'm well aware of what T14 means. It doesn't change the fact that I would likely choose the best sub-T14 school for my desired region over Cornell and Gtown, however. (Assuming my desired region was not New York or DC.)

I'm not trying to be anti-Cornell, btw. I'll be giving it strong consideration if I get in, as I'm rather enamored with the campus and facilities.


I guess I was just questioning why you're drawing the line at this "T10" or "T12" or whatever. But glad you're enamored. So am I. :)

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im_blue
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby im_blue » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:15 am

woeisme wrote:
predetermined wrote:ITE, it appears to be a lot harder to get a biglaw job from Cornell (and Gtown, for that matter) than from the rest of the T14. And their clerkship/academia placement is considerably worse ITE or not.


I'm fairly positive that this information is inaccurate. Did you read this somewhere? If so, provide a link. I go to Cornell and as far as I can tell, our biglaw placement is pretty much on par with the rest of the bottom half of the T14 (read BPMVDCNG).


The rumor floating around TLS is that Cornell's placement has been hit harder than other T14's ITE, because they place 60% of their class in New York and their graduates are less able to spread out to secondary markets. As a Cornell-enamored 0L, I'm interested in hearing your thoughts about that.

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Grizz
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby Grizz » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:24 am

sdegarmo wrote:and you have to live in ithaca


Image




Have fun with this for many months of the year.

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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby woeisme » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:26 am

im_blue wrote:
woeisme wrote:
predetermined wrote:ITE, it appears to be a lot harder to get a biglaw job from Cornell (and Gtown, for that matter) than from the rest of the T14. And their clerkship/academia placement is considerably worse ITE or not.


I'm fairly positive that this information is inaccurate. Did you read this somewhere? If so, provide a link. I go to Cornell and as far as I can tell, our biglaw placement is pretty much on par with the rest of the bottom half of the T14 (read BPMVDCNG).


The rumor floating around TLS is that Cornell's placement has been hit harder than other T14's ITE, because they place 60% of their class in New York and their graduates are less able to spread out to secondary markets. As a Cornell-enamored 0L, I'm interested in hearing your thoughts about that.


Well you're right that Cornell places heavily in NYC. It's interesting because generally NYC is the hardest legal market for law students to crack into. For Cornell, it's the easiest. In other words, I think that people choose to there. In other words, if you don't want to go to NYC, you certainly wont' have to. I had offers in both NYC and secondary markets and I'll be doing my summer at the latter (I'm an example of someone somewhat disillusioned with the idea of living in NYC). Apart from me, I have a number of other friends also going to secondary markets. Many are going to NYC as well. And, of course, like all schools these days, I have some friends who have not yet found work. Not sure if that was what you were looking for. Feel free to PM me for more specifics.

woeisme
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby woeisme » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:26 am

rad law wrote:Have fun with this for many months of the year.


wtf is that?

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Grizz
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby Grizz » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:28 am

woeisme wrote:
rad law wrote:Have fun with this for many months of the year.


wtf is that?


That is Cornell. That is the miserable cold.

woeisme
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby woeisme » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:30 am

rad law wrote:
woeisme wrote:
rad law wrote:Have fun with this for many months of the year.


wtf is that?


That is Cornell. That is the miserable cold.


Where in Cornell? That doesn't look familiar at all. That's not at all what it looks like lol.

EDIT: Oh, I know where that is. That's not really near the law school, though. But I guess the weather point would still stand. I mean, yeah, if you don't like winters, don't go to Cornell. I can tell you that our climate is better than Chicago's (UC and NU) though. It's comparable to Mich and only slightly colder than NYU/Columbia. But, anyway, don't be such a puss, it's not that bad at all. :D

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vanwinkle
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:35 am

woeisme wrote:It's interesting because generally NYC is the hardest legal market for law students to crack into.

Historically this is totally untrue. Before the recession hit, grads from every T20 school with good grades had a solid shot at NYC firms. There are so many of them, and when they're actually hiring, they pull from everywhere. The University of Texas was placing kids in NYC, and probably not placing more than they did because so many of those who chose to go to school at Texas wanted to stay in the state when they graduated.

Cornell would place a shitload of grads into NYC because people who knew they wanted NYC went there. But that was also true for Columbia, NYU, and Fordham. Now there's at least a temporary pullback in hiring, and I think it appears to be hurting Cornell more than most because Cornell was so heavy with kids going there with the hopes of NYC placement afterward, and firms are not going nearly as far down the list.

Columbia still does well because it's the best school in the NYC market, the other T14s still do okay because their grads have other places to go than NYC, but Cornell gets screwed because, even though it's in the T14, it's only the third-best school in its market, and right now there's not enough hiring to justify it. People who go there are either 1) intending to do something other than NYC BigLaw, which is probably not many, 2) taking a scholarship, so at least they're getting their education cheap, or 3) betting hiring will pick back up to older levels by the time they graduate.

But if you go to another T14 at Cornell's level you have more options than just NYC when you graduate, so if things haven't recovered you at least have multiple markets to shoot for.

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Grizz
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby Grizz » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:36 am

woeisme wrote:
rad law wrote:
woeisme wrote:
rad law wrote:Have fun with this for many months of the year.


wtf is that?


That is Cornell. That is the miserable cold.


Where in Cornell? That doesn't look familiar at all. That's not at all what it looks like lol.

EDIT: Oh, I know where that is. That's not really near the law school, though. But I guess the weather point would still stand. I mean, yeah, if you don't like winters, don't go to Cornell. I can tell you that our climate is better than Chicago's (UC and NU) though. It's comparable to Mich and only slightly colder than NYU/Columbia. But, anyway, don't be such a puss, it's not that bad at all. :D


Haha as you can see from my FL flag avatar, I am averse to all things cold.

woeisme
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby woeisme » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:43 am

vanwinkle wrote:
woeisme wrote:It's interesting because generally NYC is the hardest legal market for law students to crack into.

Historically this is totally untrue. Before the recession hit, grads from every T20 school with good grades had a solid shot at NYC firms. There are so many of them, and when they're actually hiring, they pull from everywhere. The University of Texas was placing kids in NYC, and probably not placing more than they did because so many of those who chose to go to school at Texas wanted to stay in the state when they graduated.

Cornell would place a shitload of grads into NYC because people who knew they wanted NYC went there. But that was also true for Columbia, NYU, and Fordham. Now there's at least a temporary pullback in hiring, and I think it appears to be hurting Cornell more than most because Cornell was so heavy with kids going there with the hopes of NYC placement afterward, and firms are not going nearly as far down the list.

Columbia still does well because it's the best school in the NYC market, the other T14s still do okay because their grads have other places to go than NYC, but Cornell gets screwed because, even though it's in the T14, it's only the third-best school in its market, and right now there's not enough hiring to justify it. People who go there are either 1) intending to do something other than NYC BigLaw, which is probably not many, 2) taking a scholarship, so at least they're getting their education cheap, or 3) betting hiring will pick back up to older levels by the time they graduate.

But if you go to another T14 at Cornell's level you have more options than just NYC when you graduate, so if things haven't recovered you at least have multiple markets to shoot for.


This actually doesn't make any sense. I'll just touch on a couple things.

(1) Historically it has been true that NYC is the most difficult to get and you seem to acknowledge that by emphasizing the need to have top grades. It has just been traditionally seen as the most prestigious legal market, with DC a close second. Using your example, if you go to UT, you'd need substantially better grades to get a job in New York than you would to get a job in Texas.

(2) You seem to suggest that because NYC doesn't have as much need for hiring it hurts Cornell more than other places. But EVERYWHERE has less of a need for hiring. So let's take Northwestern or Michigan. These are the second or third best schools for Chicago. Chicago, like New York, has less hiring needs now. So these schools also suffer with their respective markets. And at any school, students are able to pursue other markets of interest or other markets where they have ties. I see what you're trying to say, I just don't think it's really true.

postitnotes
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Re: T-#'s and Cornell/UCLA/etc.

Postby postitnotes » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:08 am

woeisme wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
woeisme wrote:It's interesting because generally NYC is the hardest legal market for law students to crack into.

Historically this is totally untrue. Before the recession hit, grads from every T20 school with good grades had a solid shot at NYC firms. There are so many of them, and when they're actually hiring, they pull from everywhere. The University of Texas was placing kids in NYC, and probably not placing more than they did because so many of those who chose to go to school at Texas wanted to stay in the state when they graduated.

Cornell would place a shitload of grads into NYC because people who knew they wanted NYC went there. But that was also true for Columbia, NYU, and Fordham. Now there's at least a temporary pullback in hiring, and I think it appears to be hurting Cornell more than most because Cornell was so heavy with kids going there with the hopes of NYC placement afterward, and firms are not going nearly as far down the list.

Columbia still does well because it's the best school in the NYC market, the other T14s still do okay because their grads have other places to go than NYC, but Cornell gets screwed because, even though it's in the T14, it's only the third-best school in its market, and right now there's not enough hiring to justify it. People who go there are either 1) intending to do something other than NYC BigLaw, which is probably not many, 2) taking a scholarship, so at least they're getting their education cheap, or 3) betting hiring will pick back up to older levels by the time they graduate.

But if you go to another T14 at Cornell's level you have more options than just NYC when you graduate, so if things haven't recovered you at least have multiple markets to shoot for.


This actually doesn't make any sense. I'll just touch on a couple things.

(1) Historically it has been true that NYC is the most difficult to get and you seem to acknowledge that by emphasizing the need to have top grades. It has just been traditionally seen as the most prestigious legal market, with DC a close second. Using your example, if you go to UT, you'd need substantially better grades to get a job in New York than you would to get a job in Texas.

(2) You seem to suggest that because NYC doesn't have as much need for hiring it hurts Cornell more than other places. But EVERYWHERE has less of a need for hiring. So let's take Northwestern or Michigan. These are the second or third best schools for Chicago. Chicago, like New York, has less hiring needs now. So these schools also suffer with their respective markets. And at any school, students are able to pursue other markets of interest or other markets where they have ties. I see what you're trying to say, I just don't think it's really true.


Just wanted to cut in and say that historically NYC was one of the easiest markets to break into. I've seen GPA cutoffs for schools in the MVP for OCI, and the GPA cut-offs were lower for NYC than for Chicago and DC. DC was/is much harder to break into than NYC. You could be a good deal sub-median and still pull NYC biglaw in the past. By the way, Michigan typically sends more into NYC than Chicago. Even now, I'd say that NYC is one of the easiest markets to break into. My friend who is below median at MVP got callbacks in NYC but locked out of every other primary market. The problem is that Cornell isn't just cut-off by Columbia/NYU in NYC, but firms seemed to have dug deeper into the various other T14s that also fed into NYC but were not within the state. That said, I won't comment on comparing every school's OCI until actual data was released, but I wanted to correct this notion that NYC was the 'hardest market' to break into, because it wasn't. It was probably the easiest primary to break into.




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