($$)NU vs UChicago Forum

[fortissimo]

I know a lot of people at U Chi, and have been on the campus and I'm not sure I'm a fan. The atmosphere seems somewhat more intense relative to NU. That being said, one person's intensity is another person's passion, I suppose.

That being said, with $45k I'd probably go to Chicago. From the preliminary reports, it's placing better and people around the median seem measurably more secure. I wouldn't put it up there with Harvard, though.

Also: Hyde Park sucks.

I don't know that many people at Chi, but the guy I do know was above median and locked out of Chicago. He is working for a small secondary market in the Midwest after mass mailing a ton of firms in the Midwest.

I think at 45k, it could go either way with me. Sorry I can't help much more. At 60k, I'd probably go to NU. The thing about NU is that it has a pretty lenient grade curve. It makes the GPAs super inflated, and it won't help for OCI purposes because firms know about the differences, but if you get locked out at OCI and apply for secondary markets who don't know about grade curves for the top 14s, it might help.

[ToTransferOrNot]

FWIW, 1L is actually easier at Chicago than any other school. Observe (averaging out quarters to 9 weeks of material each--the quarters actually vary a bit in length):

Chicago, Autumn quarter: 2 final exams, 18 weeks worth of material tested

Chicago, Winter quarter: 2 final exams, 1 exam over 2 quarters, 1 exam over 1 quarter, 27 weeks of material tested.

Chicago, Spring quarter: 4 final exams, 2 exams over 2 quarters, 2 exams over 1 quarter, 54 weeks of material tested.

Other schools:

Fall semester: 4 final exams, 60 weeks of material
Spring semester: 4 final exams, 60 weeks of material

Thus, Chicago's hardest quarter still tests on less material than the *first semester* at other schools--and this is AFTER having a slower ramp-up to the law school final exam game.

I really don't understand the complaining about the "Chicago intensity." Prepping for finals here is an absolute joke compared to, say, Wisconsin. This gets even more pronounced after 1L.

The only major complaint I have is that the grading system is ludicrous, mainly because luck can play a huge role in what the curve in a given class looks like. Some profs only give out a 183 once in a blue moon, some profs actually do give out 184s and 185s on a semi-regular basis (186, on the other hand, is extremely rare from anyone). That's a huge difference--it's noticeable in 2L/3L classes, but it happens in 1L classes too (some sections of Civ Pro this year, for example, the model answers were 181s; other sections, the top grade was a 184. This is a significant difference, has massive LR/job implications, yet the school refuses to do anything about it). Some seminar profs stick to a curve (and Judge Easterbrook actually grades under the curve), some seminar profs basically give out 180+s like candy. This type of crap does matter--even after 2L, for example, highest honors is only given to people with a 182 average, or if you're gunning for Order of the Coif/Kirkland scholar, etc.

[miamiman]

I know a lot of people at U Chi, and have been on the campus and I'm not sure I'm a fan. The atmosphere seems somewhat more intense relative to NU. That being said, one person's intensity is another person's passion, I suppose.

That being said, with $45k I'd probably go to Chicago. From the preliminary reports, it's placing better and people around the median seem measurably more secure. I wouldn't put it up there with Harvard, though.

Also: Hyde Park sucks.

I don't know that many people at Chi, but the guy I do know was above median and locked out of Chicago. He is working for a small secondary market in the Midwest after mass mailing a ton of firms in the Midwest.

I think at 45k, it could go either way with me. Sorry I can't help much more. At 60k, I'd probably go to NU. The thing about NU is that it has a pretty lenient grade curve. It makes the GPAs super inflated, and it won't help for OCI purposes because firms know about the differences, but if you get locked out at OCI and apply for secondary markets who don't know about grade curves for the top 14s, it might help.

Is there any footnote to this? Id be curious to know a bit more if possible

[miamiman]

FWIW, 1L is actually easier at Chicago than any other school. Observe (averaging out quarters to 9 weeks of material each--the quarters actually vary a bit in length):

Chicago, Autumn quarter: 2 final exams, 18 weeks worth of material tested

Chicago, Winter quarter: 2 final exams, 1 exam over 2 quarters, 1 exam over 1 quarter, 27 weeks of material tested.

Chicago, Spring quarter: 4 final exams, 2 exams over 2 quarters, 2 exams over 1 quarter, 54 weeks of material tested.

Other schools:

Fall semester: 4 final exams, 60 weeks of material
Spring semester: 4 final exams, 60 weeks of material

Thus, Chicago's hardest quarter still tests on less material than the *first semester* at other schools--and this is AFTER having a slower ramp-up to the law school final exam game.

I really don't understand the complaining about the "Chicago intensity." Prepping for finals here is an absolute joke compared to, say, Wisconsin. This gets even more pronounced after 1L.

The only major complaint I have is that the grading system is ludicrous, mainly because luck can play a huge role in what the curve in a given class looks like. Some profs only give out a 183 once in a blue moon, some profs actually do give out 184s and 185s on a semi-regular basis (186, on the other hand, is extremely rare from anyone). That's a huge difference--it's noticeable in 2L/3L classes, but it happens in 1L classes too (some sections of Civ Pro this year, for example, the model answers were 181s; other sections, the top grade was a 184. This is a significant difference, has massive LR/job implications, yet the school refuses to do anything about it). Some seminar profs stick to a curve (and Judge Easterbrook actually grades under the curve), some seminar profs basically give out 180+s like candy. This type of crap does matter--even after 2L, for example, highest honors is only given to people with a 182 average, or if you're gunning for Order of the Coif/Kirkland scholar, etc.

Are you at uchicago?

[ToTransferOrNot]

Yes, I am. Transferred here from Wisconsin, so I'm just basing my 1L analysis off the numbers. That said, what I can say is that prepping for final exams when they only cover 9 weeks of material really is a cakewalk compared to a semester-long class.

[miamiman]

Yes, I am. Transferred here from Wisconsin, so I'm just basing my 1L analysis off the numbers. That said, what I can say is that prepping for final exams when they only cover 9 weeks of material really is a cakewalk compared to a semester-long class.

Few questions:

1) how did uofc's oci fare? Any idea on aggregate biglaw placement?

2) which 2nd qtr exam is a 9 weeker?

3) how do you like chicago?

[ToTransferOrNot]

1.) Not sure about OCI. Transfers didn't do too well this year; otherwise, the "in the soup" numbers floating around seem to be 60-70%. Who knows, though--you really can't base anything on C/O 2011 OCI.

2.) I *might* be mistaken on the how some of those exam numbers break down, to be honest. I know that the Spring quarter has 2 two-quarter and 2 one-quarter grades; Winter quarter might be two 2-quarter exams. Either way, it's still easier than what people at other schools deal with.

3.) Chicago has its good and bad points. The lack of attention to practical training bothers me, as does the absurdity of the grade scale and the fact that they don't give credit for journals, moot court, externships, etc. I've had some amazing professors, and one really awful one--just like any other law school.

Honestly, in the end, law school is law school. Most of us are in it for a piece of paper that lets us practice law. The piece of paper from Chicago is more valuable than most.

[TTT-LS]

.

[miamiman]

Both are good options. That said, I'll insert a little jab here about students generally being happier & less nerdy at NU.

Evidence, at least as to the latter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0UN_ZIaYjQ and --LinkRemoved--.

DISCLAIMER: I'm a NU 3L.

If I go to chicago, I pray this is unrepresentative

[miamiman]

Also, I find it troubling (and horribly unhelpful) that tls has left me high and dry here. 50/50, really?

[rayiner]

Also, I find it troubling (and horribly unhelpful) that tls has left me high and dry here. 50/50, really?

I mean, I don't know what more there is to tell. In this thread you've gotten pretty much all the information you're going to get. Exact Fall 2009 OCI stats would probably make the decision easier, but you're not going to get those so there is no point in obsessing.

Go to both schools' ASWs, see which one you like better, or flip a coin. You're not making a terrible mistake either way.

[miamiman]

Also, I find it troubling (and horribly unhelpful) that tls has left me high and dry here. 50/50, really?

I mean, I don't know what more there is to tell. In this thread you've gotten pretty much all the information you're going to get. Exact Fall 2009 OCI stats would probably make the decision easier, but you're not going to get those so there is no point in obsessing.

Go to both schools' ASWs, see which one you like better, or flip a coin. You're not making a terrible mistake either way.

That's the plan. Looking forward to it. Also, I've never flipped a coin for anything - I'm sure "fit" will drive this decision

[TTT-LS]

.

[tome]

Also, I find it troubling (and horribly unhelpful) that tls has left me high and dry here. 50/50, really?

I mean, I don't know what more there is to tell. In this thread you've gotten pretty much all the information you're going to get. Exact Fall 2009 OCI stats would probably make the decision easier, but you're not going to get those so there is no point in obsessing.

Go to both schools' ASWs, see which one you like better, or flip a coin. You're not making a terrible mistake either way.

That's the plan. Looking forward to it. Also, I've never flipped a coin for anything - I'm sure "fit" will drive this decision

Flip the coin. If you feel disappointed by the result, you will know where you are meant to go ... I guess do it after ASWs.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I wouldn't worry about "atmosphere" until you actually visit. I'm willing to bet most classes have their own type of atmospheres and it isn't mutually exclusive to one school.

[miamiman]

Flip the coin. If you feel disappointed by the result, you will know where you are meant to go ... I guess do it after ASWs.

no, really, i dont flip coins.

[miamiman]

Wavered back and forth the entire week. Chose U of C. Did so mostly on jobs and teaching quality.

Hope it works out.

[tome]

Wavered back and forth the entire week. Chose U of C. Did so mostly on jobs and teaching quality.

Hope it works out.

Good luck! There was no bad choice, only very, very good ones.


EDIT: I hope you did not chose based on the poll! That was a close one

[miamiman]

Wavered back and forth the entire week. Chose U of C. Did so mostly on jobs and teaching quality.

Hope it works out.

Good luck! There was no bad choice, only very, very good ones.


EDIT: I hope you did not chose based on the poll! That was a close one

Well...with n = 69, I felt comfortable with the statistical significance of the 5% margin. Jokes aside, went to both schools 2 days each and went in open minded. Talked to kids, career services, sat in on classes, attended wigmore follies, etc. Felt like I would be a bit more engaged at Chicago with slightly safer job prospects. Was too close to call for a long time. Actually, I was fairly certain i d be at northwestern bc I fell in love with the location. But that was the strongest pro for the school over chicago and I didn't feel that was a legitimate reason to choose one school over another

[chadwick218]

miamiman, after our discussions, i think that you made the right choice for yourself. interestingly, i am very surprised that the poll is so close to being 50/50. i remember that such polls last cycle with even more money offered by NU were weighing 75/25 in favor of chicago.