"alternative" rankings which demote Y and S

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CordeliusX
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"alternative" rankings which demote Y and S

Postby CordeliusX » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:27 pm

I'm curious why a lot of different rankings seem to elevate HLS but push down SLS and even YLS. I don't know enough about them all, but I'm assuming HLS size and alumni network, beyond its top notch scholarship, is the main tipping point. I just find it strange that YLS and SLS are so well regarded and yet they take a beating on some alternative ranking systems.

EDIT I'm talking about the Gourman Report, the Cooley rankings, and some other random stuff I've encountered on the web
Last edited by CordeliusX on Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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kurama20
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Re: "alternative" rankings which demote Y and S

Postby kurama20 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:30 pm

It's because of the employment stats.

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Reinhardt
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Re: "alternative" rankings which demote Y and S

Postby Reinhardt » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:01 am

Biglaw employment would be one reason (hurts Yale and to a lesser extent Stanford), Numerical quality of students (hurts Stanford), Size (hurts Yale and Stanford).

The Cooley Ranking has all sorts of ridiculous measures that depend on the absolute size/number of stuff the school has, not the per capita number. Harvard is one of the biggest law schools in the US, and also obviously one of the richest and best, so it shows up at number 1. Cooley manages to appear very high up just by being 3 times the size of Harvard.

CordeliusX
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Re: "alternative" rankings which demote Y and S

Postby CordeliusX » Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:45 am

msoftceo wrote:Biglaw employment would be one reason (hurts Yale and to a lesser extent Stanford), Numerical quality of students (hurts Stanford), Size (hurts Yale and Stanford).


I didn't know Stanford's students were -LSAT stat aside- of any lesser quality than Harvards. Is there a true "decline" or were you mentioning this specifically regarding SLS LSAT scores?

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Reinhardt
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Re: "alternative" rankings which demote Y and S

Postby Reinhardt » Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:20 am

Just LSAT, but it is significantly lower, and that's half of a student body's "numerical quality."

Starting5
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Re: "alternative" rankings which demote Y and S

Postby Starting5 » Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:53 am

I don't peruse this board very often (in fact, pretty infrequently). So, I'm not sure what you mean by "employment rankings." But this topic is something I do know a little about, from a "real life" perspective. While I didn't attend SLS, I am very familiar with it from the hiring side, and we've found SLS students--virtually from top-to-bottom--to be excellent "prospects," highly sought after, and (like their counterparts at the Stanford GSB) typically trying to decide from a number of very attractive offers. SLS, with only about 170-175 students per entering class, has, for the most part, a demand for its students that significantly outstrips supply--and by a substantial margin. Again, similar to the GSB, this supply/demand ratio is (for the most part) typically frustrating for firms at OCI. In particular, East Coast and Midwest firms have a tough time prying SLS students from the West Coast--even those originally from other areas of the Country who grow accustomed to California sunshine. SLS students genuinely interested in DC, NY, and Chicago are always in particularly high demand, simply because (like Yale), there is simply a very limited supply. If you really want to see some frustrated employers, walk over to the GSB during OCI and talk to the East Coast (or Midwest)-based banks, consulting firms, and S&P 500 Companies recruiting at the Stanford Business School. Again, it's all supply and demand, and the smaller classes at the Law School and the Business School put the vast majority of students at each institution in enviable positions. I know this from personal experience--again, sitting as an interviewer, not an interviewee.

I can assure you, however, that should an SLS student choose not to start her or his career at, say, a Vault 50 law firm, it's almost always by choice, and not from "desperation." The same is certainly true at YLS. And, like YLS, SLS students (and HLS students) are interested in a wide variety of careers after law school, many well ouside the traditional "Big Law" route, and all of these "other paths" are readily available to SLS students. These run the gamut from PI, academia, government, business (Silicon Valley seems to have a siren-song attraction to some entrepreneurial SLS students), or simply pursuing another advanced degree (frequently a PhD in a field that interests them, complements their JD, and often a further step towards academia). The single-minded (and misguided) notion that every member of HYS's entering classes "must" covet a position with a Vault 20, 50, or 100 firm simply does not correspond with reality (particularly at Y, but also very true at S, and also--but probably to a lesser degree--at H). I know this well; we've had our hearts broken by a number of SLS students who simply chose great opportunities in PI, government or academia (or something else) over Big Law. (We understand. They followed their hearts, and a unique place like SLS gives them that opportunity. I, for one, applaud them. And we are certainly well aware of these "risks" when recruiting students from any of Y, S and H (as well as a few other schools)).

What does US News typically show? Close to 99% of SLS's graduating class employed within 3 or 6 months after graduation (I'm going from memory here)? And I strongly suspect that those other 2 or 3 students in a typical class have voluntarily chosen to trek through Tibet for the next 12 months (seeking the meaning of life), or are applying for a PhD in Astrophysics (or some other subject well beyond me)--and not seeking a corporate legal position or federal clerkship. The premier East Coast, Midwest and West Coast law firms (along with consulting firms, I-Banks, etc.) all descend upon OCI at Stanford Law. And, on a per-capita basis, which is the only true way to compare "apples-to-apples" among law schools, Stanford's Federal clerkship statistics--last I looked several years ago--were off the charts (for those wishing to pursue clerkships), second only to Yale (which has a healthy lead over both SLS and HLS, if memory serves).

No, employment "options" aren't a problem at SLS; far better to be below median at SLS than any other school I can think of, with the one exception probably being Yale--which also has the supply/demand ratio strongly in its favor. Hypothetically, I'd MUCH rather be near the bottom of my class at SLS (again, a function of supply/demand) than near the bottom of my class at HLS, with over 550 students per class (over 3 times the size of S and Y!) I know of a number of horror stories for below-median students at HLS, particularly those not wishing to remain on the East Coast, and particularly in the current economy.

In fact, the only recent survey I'm aware of allegedly representing employers' views on this subject (and, to be honest, I don't put much weight on any of the rankings outside of, perhaps, US News), I believe, ranked Stanford #1 among all law schools, with Yale at or near #10. I believe that was the Vault Survey of Law Firms, and I thought I saw someone post it on this board a few months back. I know we circulated it internally, and from a Big Law perspective, it wasn't surprising. Again, I don't put too much weight on it--I'm simply saying that with a very small, very selective class (very similar to Yale in that regard), finding attractive employment options out of SLS--wherever you want to practice or clerk or do whatever interests you--is typically not much of a worry for SLS students.

(P.S. The results of the Vault survey also likely reflects something that is whispered (and sometimes spoken outright) in the halls of "Big Law"; namely, that compared to their HLS and SLS brethren, YLS grads, while typically very bright, are more often not well prepared for the Big Law environment--unlike many of their colleagues at Yale's peer schools. The perception is (rightly or wrongly) that many Yalies are more interested in policy and/or academia/teaching than rising in a corporate law firm. This is obviously not always true, but I suspect the nature of the curriculum at YLS may help to produce this mindset among its students. And, I should also point out, depending upon your perspective, it is not a criticism of Yalies in the broader context of professional life. But it is a common criticism within the narrow confines of "Big Law." I also strongly suspect that there are a fair number of SLS and HLS students with this same "YLS" mindset; it is probably just more prevalent at Yale--partly because of the curriculum and structure at YLS, and partly a product of self-selection as admitted students choose among any or all of the "Big 3.")
Last edited by Starting5 on Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:49 am, edited 2 times in total.

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TheLuckyOne
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Re: "alternative" rankings which demote Y and S

Postby TheLuckyOne » Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:19 am

CordeliusX wrote:EDIT I'm talking about the Gourman Report, the Cooley rankings, and some other random stuff I've encountered on the web


:lol: you may want to look up how they arrive at that conclusion.

sfdreaming09
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Re: "alternative" rankings which demote Y and S

Postby sfdreaming09 » Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:25 pm

Starting5 wrote:I don't peruse this board very often (in fact, pretty infrequently). So, I'm not sure what you mean by "employment rankings." But this topic is something I do know a little about, from a "real life" perspective. While I didn't attend SLS, I am very familiar with it from the hiring side, and we've found SLS students--virtually from top-to-bottom--to be excellent "prospects," highly sought after, and (like their counterparts at the Stanford GSB) typically trying to decide from a number of very attractive offers. SLS, with only about 170-175 students per entering class, has, for the most part, a demand for its students that significantly outstrips supply--and by a substantial margin. Again, similar to the GSB, this supply/demand ratio is (for the most part) typically frustrating for firms at OCI. In particular, East Coast and Midwest firms have a tough time prying SLS students from the West Coast--even those originally from other areas of the Country who grow accustomed to California sunshine. SLS students genuinely interested in DC, NY, and Chicago are always in particularly high demand, simply because (like Yale), there is simply a very limited supply. If you really want to see some frustrated employers, walk over to the GSB during OCI and talk to the East Coast (or Midwest)-based banks, consulting firms, and S&P 500 Companies recruiting at the Stanford Business School. Again, it's all supply and demand, and the smaller classes at the Law School and the Business School put the vast majority of students at each institution in enviable positions. I know this from personal experience--again, sitting as an interviewer, not an interviewee.

I can assure you, however, that should an SLS student choose not to start her or his career at, say, a Vault 50 law firm, it's almost always by choice, and not from "desperation." The same is certainly true at YLS. And, like YLS, SLS students (and HLS students) are interested in a wide variety of careers after law school, many well ouside the traditional "Big Law" route, and all of these "other paths" are readily available to SLS students. These run the gamut from PI, academia, government, business (Silicon Valley seems to have a siren-song attraction to some entrepreneurial SLS students), or simply pursuing another advanced degree (frequently a PhD in a field that interests them, complements their JD, and often a further step towards academia). The single-minded (and misguided) notion that every member of HYS's entering classes "must" covet a position with a Vault 20, 50, or 100 firm simply does not correspond with reality (particularly at Y, but also very true at S, and also--but probably to a lesser degree--at H). I know this well; we've had our hearts broken by a number of SLS students who simply chose great opportunities in PI, government or academia (or something else) over Big Law. (We understand. They followed their hearts, and a unique place like SLS gives them that opportunity. I, for one, applaud them. And we are certainly well aware of these "risks" when recruiting students from any of Y, S and H (as well as a few other schools)).

What does US News typically show? Close to 99% of SLS's graduating class employed within 3 or 6 months after graduation (I'm going from memory here)? And I strongly suspect that those other 2 or 3 students in a typical class have voluntarily chosen to trek through Tibet for the next 12 months (seeking the meaning of life), or are applying for a PhD in Astrophysics (or some other subject well beyond me)--and not seeking a corporate legal position or federal clerkship. The premier East Coast, Midwest and West Coast law firms (along with consulting firms, I-Banks, etc.) all descend upon OCI at Stanford Law. And, on a per-capita basis, which is the only true way to compare "apples-to-apples" among law schools, Stanford's Federal clerkship statistics--last I looked several years ago--were off the charts (for those wishing to pursue clerkships), second only to Yale (which has a healthy lead over both SLS and HLS, if memory serves).

No, employment "options" aren't a problem at SLS; far better to be below median at SLS than any other school I can think of, with the one exception probably being Yale--which also has the supply/demand ratio strongly in its favor. Hypothetically, I'd MUCH rather be near the bottom of my class at SLS (again, a function of supply/demand) than near the bottom of my class at HLS, with over 550 students per class (over 3 times the size of S and Y!) I know of a number of horror stories for below-median students at HLS, particularly those not wishing to remain on the East Coast, and particularly in the current economy.

In fact, the only recent survey I'm aware of allegedly representing employers' views on this subject (and, to be honest, I don't put much weight on any of the rankings outside of, perhaps, US News), I believe, ranked Stanford #1 among all law schools, with Yale at or near #10. I believe that was the Vault Survey of Law Firms, and I thought I saw someone post it on this board a few months back. I know we circulated it internally, and from a Big Law perspective, it wasn't surprising. Again, I don't put too much weight on it--I'm simply saying that with a very small, very selective class (very similar to Yale in that regard), finding attractive employment options out of SLS--wherever you want to practice or clerk or do whatever interests you--is typically not much of a worry for SLS students.

(P.S. The results of the Vault survey also likely reflects something that is whispered (and sometimes spoken outright) in the halls of "Big Law"; namely, that compared to their HLS and SLS brethren, YLS grads, while typically very bright, are more often not well prepared for the Big Law environment--unlike many of their colleagues at Yale's peer schools. The perception is (rightly or wrongly) that many Yalies are more interested in policy and/or academia/teaching than rising in a corporate law firm. This is obviously not always true, but I suspect the nature of the curriculum at YLS may help to produce this mindset among its students. And, I should also point out, depending upon your perspective, it is not a criticism of Yalies in the broader context of professional life. But it is a common criticism within the narrow confines of "Big Law." I also strongly suspect that there are a fair number of SLS and HLS students with this same "YLS" mindset; it is probably just more prevalent at Yale--partly because of the curriculum and structure at YLS, and partly a product of self-selection as admitted students choose among any or all of the "Big 3.")


I know you say that you don't go to Stanford, but why, then, do you think that all 6 of your posts involve you promoting Stanford?

cubswin
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Re: "alternative" rankings which demote Y and S

Postby cubswin » Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:29 pm

TheLuckyOne wrote:
CordeliusX wrote:EDIT I'm talking about the Gourman Report, the Cooley rankings, and some other random stuff I've encountered on the web


:lol: you may want to look up how they arrive at that conclusion.


My thoughts exactly. GR might be an interesting explanation, but the stats in the Cooley rankings are gerrymandered to glorify Cooley.




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