T14 for West Coast (LA)

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Space_Cowboy
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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby Space_Cowboy » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:16 pm

^^ +eleventy billion

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TheWire
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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby TheWire » Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:39 pm

tranandy wrote:There is just no evidence that Cornell places better than UCLA in LA (or probably in California) other than blind elitism and allegiance to arbitrary rankings. It doesn't matter whether the Cornell grad has ties to California or not.

Some evidence:
1. http://www.mto.com/lawyers/

Munger, Tolles, Olson is one of the elite firms in LA. 15 UCLA grads, 0 Cornell.

http://www.irell.com/professionals.html?results

Irell & Manella is another elite LA firm. It has 26 UCLA grads, 1 Cornell.

The above indicates that even Cornell grads with ties to LA have a tough time breaking into the elite LA firms.

2. http://californiabar.globl.org

Los Angeles County has 5642 UCLA grads. 193 Cornell grads. About a 30:1 difference. That's more than self-selection, that is the benefit of the vast network and home town advantage that UCLA grads have and, in all likelihood, the preference employers have for UCLA grads. In all of California, there are 893 Cornell grads and 10872. The difference is less dramatic, but still 12:1 in favor of UCLA.

3. As stated by another poster, many firms in California neither do resume drops or OCI at Cornell, but most do OCI at UCLA. Even if a Cornell grad was at the top of his class, he wouldn't get his foot in the door of many Cali firms without some connections often times. According to NALP, 180 firms in California interview at UCLA, while 49 do at Cornell. 69 firms in LA interview at UCLA, 17 do the same at Cornell.

--LinkRemoved--

4. --LinkRemoved--

The above site tracks how many prestigious 9th circuit clerkships UCLA and Cornell grads have gotten in recent years. UCLA has easily outplaced Cornell on the west coast. The information gives you a rough sense of how federal judges, who actually make hiring decisions, view the relative quality of the law schools. As you can see, there are many T14 schools that perform well. Cornell is not one of them though. Moreover, federal judges don't usually care about students with local ties or home-town ties so you don't need account for that. Judges only hire what they feel are the best candidates.

5. UCLA's median GPA and LSAT are both higher than Cornell's. Why would a California hiring director prefer a non-local grad from 3000 miles away who, on paper, is not even academically more qualified than the local grad? Only a person who blindly follows minute differences in the US News rankings would do that. Fortunately, hiring directors aren't as gullible as prelaw students.

UCLA is not better in California than HYS, Berkeley and probably a few other schools, but it is not below Cornell.


thanks a lot!

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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby kurama20 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:10 pm

JSUVA2012 wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:Feel free to PM me the names of the 2Ls and 3Ls you've talked to. See, I actually go to UVA, so I can talk to these mysterious people.


My inbox: crickets.

I call BS on these UVA 2L and 3Ls to whom you've supposedly spoken.



You must be joking. Like I would seriously out myself like that, not only that but I'm sure they would think that was lame as hell (which it is). To make matters worse they are relatively well known so it definitely isn't happening. The thing with your comments about UVA's placement is that not only do they not match up with people who have been through OCI (while you haven't, and haven't even been at the school long enough to get all of your grades from your first semester) they don't even match up with the placement statistics. Sorry but NYU is not going to outplace UVA in DC, and CLS and Chicago aren't going to outplace UVA in DC at a level that is all that relevant (as the stats show). The difference between CLS and Chicago in DC is going to mainly come down to grades.

A below median CLS and Chicago student is not going to do better in DC than an above median UVA student, that would be significant enough to say that Chicago and CLS are going to out place UVA. Now in NYC and Cali there is a very good chance that a below median CLS/Chicago student will outdo a slightly above median UVA one, that's what makes the schools stronger than UVA, but not in UVA's on home market. Your comment about NYU out doing UVA in DC is downright laughable--you've spent too much time on TLS and are starting to get sucked into it's culture. Yes there are differences between the schools in placement, but it is not like you are portraying it. Yes HY are going to outdo everyone everywhere, but with the rest of the top 14 region and grades are going to be huge factors.
Last edited by kurama20 on Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby kurama20 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:14 pm

tranandy wrote:There is just no evidence that Cornell places better than UCLA in LA (or probably in California) other than blind elitism and allegiance to arbitrary rankings. It doesn't matter whether the Cornell grad has ties to California or not.

Some evidence:
1. http://www.mto.com/lawyers/

Munger, Tolles, Olson is one of the elite firms in LA. 15 UCLA grads, 0 Cornell.

http://www.irell.com/professionals.html?results

Irell & Manella is another elite LA firm. It has 26 UCLA grads, 1 Cornell.

The above indicates that even Cornell grads with ties to LA have a tough time breaking into the elite LA firms.

2. http://californiabar.globl.org

Los Angeles County has 5642 UCLA grads. 193 Cornell grads. About a 30:1 difference. That's more than self-selection, that is the benefit of the vast network and home town advantage that UCLA grads have and, in all likelihood, the preference employers have for UCLA grads. In all of California, there are 893 Cornell grads and 10872. The difference is less dramatic, but still 12:1 in favor of UCLA.

3. As stated by another poster, many firms in California neither do resume drops or OCI at Cornell, but most do OCI at UCLA. Even if a Cornell grad was at the top of his class, he wouldn't get his foot in the door of many Cali firms without some connections often times. According to NALP, 180 firms in California interview at UCLA, while 49 do at Cornell. 69 firms in LA interview at UCLA, 17 do the same at Cornell.

--LinkRemoved--

4. --LinkRemoved--

The above site tracks how many prestigious 9th circuit clerkships UCLA and Cornell grads have gotten in recent years. UCLA has easily outplaced Cornell on the west coast. The information gives you a rough sense of how federal judges, who actually make hiring decisions, view the relative quality of the law schools. As you can see, there are many T14 schools that perform well. Cornell is not one of them though. Moreover, federal judges don't usually care about students with local ties or home-town ties so you don't need account for that. Judges only hire what they feel are the best candidates.

5. UCLA's median GPA and LSAT are both higher than Cornell's. Why would a California hiring director prefer a non-local grad from 3000 miles away who, on paper, is not even academically more qualified than the local grad? Only a person who blindly follows minute differences in the US News rankings would do that. Fortunately, hiring directors aren't as gullible as prelaw students.

UCLA is not better in California than HYS, Berkeley and probably a few other schools, but it is not below Cornell.


This is all true. Especially your comment about arbitrarily relying on the rankings . But the truth is that that's how a lot of people determine placement strength. They don't look at actual placement studies and they never actually checkout the people at the firms. When someone does these things and the overall higher ranked school according to US News (see the laughable notion that NYU out places UVA in DC, and out places Boalt in Cali) doesn't beat out the lower one, they scream "self selection". SS does apply in some circumstances, but not anywhere near to the extent that people on here try to make it seem. People also seem to forget that when the employers are the one's doing the "self selection" that's not really the same thing.

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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby RVP11 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:33 am

Hey Kurama - my PM inbox is still empty.

Logical conclusion: these 2Ls and 3Ls at UVA to whom you've supposedly spoken...don't exist.

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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby kurama20 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:39 am

JSUVA2012 wrote:Hey Kurama - my PM inbox is still empty.

Logical conclusion: these 2Ls and 3Ls at UVA to whom you've supposedly spoken...don't exist.


Hey JSUVA Another logical conclusion: you don't know what you're talking about. NYU will outplace UVA in DC and Boalt in Cali, really? Have you gotten that into TLS? What makes matters worse is that none of what you are saying lines up with the placement stats.
Last edited by kurama20 on Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby Space_Cowboy » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:40 am

JSUVA2012 wrote:Hey Kurama - my PM inbox is still empty.

Logical conclusion: these 2Ls and 3Ls at UVA to whom you've supposedly spoken...don't exist.


You may be right, but I don't know too many people who divulge private information to some random person on the internet.

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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby RVP11 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:44 am

kurama20 wrote:You must be joking. Like I would seriously out myself like that, not only that but I'm sure they would think that was lame as hell (which it is).


If you come to UVA and have anything like this attitude IRL, you'll out yourself quickly.

kurama20 wrote:To make matters worse they are relatively well known so it definitely isn't happening.


Relatively well known? The only people who'd match that description are like...the NGSL guys. My guess is you don't know what you're talking about.

kurama20 wrote:The thing with your comments about UVA's placement is that not only do they not match up with people who have been through OCI (while you haven't, and haven't even been at the school long enough to get all of your grades from your first semester) they don't even match up with the placement statistics. Sorry but NYU is not going to outplace UVA in DC, and CLS and Chicago aren't going to outplace UVA in DC at a level that is all that relevant (as the stats show). The difference between CLS and Chicago in DC is going to mainly come down to grades.


Fact that I don't even have grades from first semester is completely irrelevant.

I go to UVA. I live in Charlottesville. I have friends who are 2Ls. My PAs are all 2Ls and 3Ls who've been through OGI. You seriously think I don't talk to them about their experiences? I'm going to say 1L who actually goes to UVA >>>>>>>>> 0L who claims he's talked to mysterious, unnamed UVA 2Ls and 3Ls re: any UVA-related topic. My thinking is you've dreamt up these 2Ls so you can spout unsolicited "knowledge" and attribute it to some minor source of authority.

I never debated NYU vis a vis UVA in DC.

CLS and Chicago would probably better serve someone trying to get into any major market. Including DC.

"As the stats show?" There are no publicly available stats on how deep DC firms are digging into Columbia/Chicago vs. UVA classes. I guess next thing is you're going to claim you've seen firm hiring grids? That'd be the return of Emmy.

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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby RVP11 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:46 am

kurama20 wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:Hey Kurama - my PM inbox is still empty.

Logical conclusion: these 2Ls and 3Ls at UVA to whom you've supposedly spoken...don't exist.


Hey JSUVA Another logical conclusion: you don't know what you're talking about. NYU will outplace UVA in DC and Boalt in Cali, really? Have you gotten that into TLS? What makes matters worse is that none of what you are saying lines up with the placement stats.


I never debated NYU > UVA in DC. Try reading.

Placement stats? Please find me stats showing that DC firms hire deeper in UVA's class than NYU's class. Then cite them. You can't say my opinions don't line up with placement stats when the stats don't exist.

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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby kurama20 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:56 am

JSUVA2012 wrote:
kurama20 wrote:You must be joking. Like I would seriously out myself like that, not only that but I'm sure they would think that was lame as hell (which it is).


If you come to UVA and have anything like this attitude IRL, you'll out yourself quickly.

kurama20 wrote:To make matters worse they are relatively well known so it definitely isn't happening.


Relatively well known? The only people who'd match that description are like...the NGSL guys. My guess is you don't know what you're talking about.

kurama20 wrote:The thing with your comments about UVA's placement is that not only do they not match up with people who have been through OCI (while you haven't, and haven't even been at the school long enough to get all of your grades from your first semester) they don't even match up with the placement statistics. Sorry but NYU is not going to outplace UVA in DC, and CLS and Chicago aren't going to outplace UVA in DC at a level that is all that relevant (as the stats show). The difference between CLS and Chicago in DC is going to mainly come down to grades.


Fact that I don't even have grades from first semester is completely irrelevant.

I go to UVA. I live in Charlottesville. I have friends who are 2Ls. My PAs are all 2Ls and 3Ls who've been through OGI. You seriously think I don't talk to them about their experiences? I'm going to say 1L who actually goes to UVA >>>>>>>>> 0L who claims he's talked to mysterious, unnamed UVA 2Ls and 3Ls re: any UVA-related topic. My thinking is you've dreamt up these 2Ls so you can spout unsolicited "knowledge" and attribute it to some minor source of authority.

I never debated NYU vis a vis UVA in DC.

CLS and Chicago would probably better serve someone trying to get into any major market. Including DC.

"As the stats show?" There are no publicly available stats on how deep DC firms are digging into Columbia/Chicago vs. UVA classes. I guess next thing is you're going to claim you've seen firm hiring grids? That'd be the return of Emmy.



Are you serious? Have you been on this website so long that you actually feel like your persona on here qualifies as a real person? You need to step back and try to gain some sort of social life in the real world if you think this. lol you are a "mysterious" 1L in case you weren't awarer. What's worse is that you are so ridiculous as to think someone would PM you actual names of people. For the record you haven't sent any info either. Your final response about needing publicly availabe stats on how deep DC firms are digging into various classes is the red flag that you don't know what you are talking about though. Reason being is that based on your logic--guess what? You have no idea what the answer to this question is either. Be honest, the truth is that you are using US News just like the majority of people on here. If you do firm searches you can easily estimate people's class rank by looking at their academic bios. It's not rocket science.

If you check you will see that UVA grads line DC firms with very comparable academic stats to CLS and Chicago grads. Matter of fact, Mr. Top 6 (Chicago 2L) was on here talking about how a lot of this "OMG I go to Chicago instead of UVA so the DC firm will definitely hire me over a UVA grad" was bullshit. It will come down to grades etc. About the only schools that get that kind of response in comparison to other top 14 schools are Harvard and Yale. What's so interesting about this is that you can actually see this at the firms. The H and Y grads do tend to have "lesser" academic qualifications and line DC firms in droves (even though Yale is much smaller than UVA).

The thing is that tranady hit it on the head. You can do the same kind of analysis with UVA and DC that he did with UCLA/Cornell and Cali. But you will do the usual TLS dance of "OMG it's self selection" and fall back on blind rankings obsession. What you all fail to realize is that self selection is somewhat valid, but it is still a hypothesis in many situations. However, certain things are objectively true and can be seen. One of them is that Columbia and Chicago are not going to be noticeably better for DC than UVA. And really if you are going to fall back on that "we would need a chart comparing each school to know who places better etc." just go ahead and say that you are just guessing based on the rankings. Because that's exactly what you are doing, as based on your own standard you don't even know what the hell you are saying.

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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby Space_Cowboy » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:04 am

kurama20 wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:
kurama20 wrote:You must be joking. Like I would seriously out myself like that, not only that but I'm sure they would think that was lame as hell (which it is).


If you come to UVA and have anything like this attitude IRL, you'll out yourself quickly.

kurama20 wrote:To make matters worse they are relatively well known so it definitely isn't happening.


Relatively well known? The only people who'd match that description are like...the NGSL guys. My guess is you don't know what you're talking about.

kurama20 wrote:The thing with your comments about UVA's placement is that not only do they not match up with people who have been through OCI (while you haven't, and haven't even been at the school long enough to get all of your grades from your first semester) they don't even match up with the placement statistics. Sorry but NYU is not going to outplace UVA in DC, and CLS and Chicago aren't going to outplace UVA in DC at a level that is all that relevant (as the stats show). The difference between CLS and Chicago in DC is going to mainly come down to grades.


Fact that I don't even have grades from first semester is completely irrelevant.

I go to UVA. I live in Charlottesville. I have friends who are 2Ls. My PAs are all 2Ls and 3Ls who've been through OGI. You seriously think I don't talk to them about their experiences? I'm going to say 1L who actually goes to UVA >>>>>>>>> 0L who claims he's talked to mysterious, unnamed UVA 2Ls and 3Ls re: any UVA-related topic. My thinking is you've dreamt up these 2Ls so you can spout unsolicited "knowledge" and attribute it to some minor source of authority.

I never debated NYU vis a vis UVA in DC.

CLS and Chicago would probably better serve someone trying to get into any major market. Including DC.

"As the stats show?" There are no publicly available stats on how deep DC firms are digging into Columbia/Chicago vs. UVA classes. I guess next thing is you're going to claim you've seen firm hiring grids? That'd be the return of Emmy.



Are you serious? Have you been on this website so long that you actually feel like your persona on here qualifies as a real person? You need to step back and try to gain some sort of social life in the real world if you think this. lol you are a "mysterious" 1L in case you weren't awarer. What's worse is that you are so ridiculous as to think someone would PM you actual names of people. For the record you haven't sent any info either. Your final response about needing publicly availabe stats on how deep DC firms are digging into various classes is the red flag that you don't know what you are talking about though. Reason being is that based on your logic--guess what? You have no idea what the answer to this question is either. Be honest, the truth is that you are using US News just like the majority of people on here. If you do firm searches you can easily estimate people's class rank by looking at their academic bios. It's not rocket science.

If you check you will see that UVA grads line DC firms with very comparable academic stats to CLS and Chicago grads. Matter of fact, Mr. Top 6 (Chicago 2L) was on here talking about how a lot of this "OMG I go to Chicago instead of UVA so the DC firm will definitely hire me over a UVA grad" was bullshit. It will come down to grades etc. About the only schools that get that kind of response in comparison to other top 14 schools are Harvard and Yale. What's so interesting about this is that you can actually see this at the firms. The H and Y grads do tend to have "lesser" academic qualifications and line DC firms in droves (even though Yale is much smaller than UVA).

The thing is that tranady hit it on the head. You can do the same kind of analysis with UVA and DC that he did with UCLA/Cornell and Cali. But you will do the usual TLS dance of "OMG it's self selection" and fall back on blind rankings obsession. What you all fail to realize is that self selection is somewhat valid, but it is still a hypothesis in many situations. However, certain things are objectively true and can be seen. One of them is that Columbia and Chicago are not going to be noticeably better for DC than UVA. And really if you are going to fall back on that "we would need a chart comparing each school to know who places better etc." just go ahead and say that you are just guessing based on the rankings. Because that's exactly what you are doing, as based on your own standard you don't even know what the hell you are saying.


Is the moral of the story that both of you are full of shit? :D

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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby RVP11 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:04 am

kurama20 wrote:Are you serious? Have you been on this website so long that you actually feel like your persona on here qualifies as a real person? You need to step back and try to gain some sort of social life in the real world if you think this. lol you are a "mysterious" 1L in case you weren't awarer.


I've actually met people from here IRL. Virtually everyone who posted in the UVA Class of 2012 thread knows who I am at school. I used to have a selftar. I once posted my Facebook page. I've never been a stickler re: anonymity.

kurama20 wrote:Your final response about needing publicly availabe stats on how deep DC firms are digging into various classes is the red flag that you don't know what you are talking about though. Reason being is that based on your logic--guess what? You have no idea what the answer to this question is either. Be honest, the truth is that you are using US News just like the majority of people on here. If you do firm searches you can easily estimate people's class rank by looking at their academic bios. It's not rocket science.


Here's the difference between us:

You impliedly claimed that there were "stats" out there when you said my assertions didn't comport with the statistics. You were fudging the truth and you know it.

I've admitted my info and opinions are partially based on conversations with 2Ls and 3Ls and having seen the grid that shows about which grade level most DC firms were picking their pre-selects back in August.

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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby RVP11 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:06 am

Space_Cowboy wrote:
Is the moral of the story that both of you are full of shit? :D


Here's how it went:

Kurama: it's X, I don't go to UVA but I've spoken to unknown people
JSUVA: no, it's Y, I actually go to UVA and have spoken to actual people (so it's logical to assume I know a little bit about UVA)
Kurama: you're wrong, Y doesn't comport with the statistics
JSUVA: there are no statistics
Kurama: yeah, there are no statistics, so your opinion is no better than mine
JSUVA: yes, it is, and it's logical to trust a UVA 1L vs. random 0L when discussing UVA's placement
Last edited by RVP11 on Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby Space_Cowboy » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:08 am

kurama20 wrote:Your final response about needing publicly availabe stats on how deep DC firms are digging into various classes is the red flag that you don't know what you are talking about though. Reason being is that based on your logic--guess what? You have no idea what the answer to this question is either. Be honest, the truth is that you are using US News just like the majority of people on here. If you do firm searches you can easily estimate people's class rank by looking at their academic bios. It's not rocket science.


Do you have a spradsheet of this? That would be worth a look.

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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby Space_Cowboy » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:10 am

JSUVA2012 wrote:
Space_Cowboy wrote:
Is the moral of the story that both of you are full of shit? :D


Here's how it went:

Kurama: it's X, I don't go to UVA but I've spoken to unknown people
JSUVA: no, it's Y, I actually go to UVA and have spoken to actual people (so it's logical to assume I know a little bit about UVA)
Kurama: you're wrong, Y doesn't comport with the statistics
JSUVA: there are no statistics
Kurama: yeah, there are no statistics, so your opinion is no better than mine
JSUVA: yes, it is, and it's logical to trust a UVA 1L vs. random 0L when discussing UVA's placement


LOL. Yeah, grade cutoffs are the only bits of data I'd put weight in. Although, the USNWR lawyer/judges ratings aren't a bad barometer of what firms think about the schools.

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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby RVP11 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:10 am

LOL @ easily being able to discern class rank from firm bios. That's just NOT possible for a lot of schools. See: UVA. The only real indicator will be Law Review/Order of the Coif. Outside of whether they were top ~10%, you won't be able to know anything about someone's class rank.

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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby kurama20 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:11 am

JSUVA2012 wrote:
kurama20 wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:Hey Kurama - my PM inbox is still empty.

Logical conclusion: these 2Ls and 3Ls at UVA to whom you've supposedly spoken...don't exist.


Hey JSUVA Another logical conclusion: you don't know what you're talking about. NYU will outplace UVA in DC and Boalt in Cali, really? Have you gotten that into TLS? What makes matters worse is that none of what you are saying lines up with the placement stats.


I never debated NYU > UVA in DC. Try reading.

Placement stats? Please find me stats showing that DC firms hire deeper in UVA's class than NYU's class. Then cite them. You can't say my opinions don't line up with placement stats when the stats don't exist.



LOL I"m glad you started with that Bullshit. You can look at these firms websites for yourself and see that they have no problem hiring UVA grads with comparable stats to NYU one's. Besides, no one ever said that firms would "go deeper" into NYU's class than UVA ( maybe you should try reading)--- just that NYU won't get you a job in DC easier than UVA will. I love it when people start with that shit, it's their way of trying to weasel around the fact that hiring doesn't always follow the US News rankings 100 percent. The fact of the matter is that even if you look at some of the pickiest DC firms, the firms look for similar academic qualifications from grads of either school. You can go through these firms and quickly see that they have the same basic grade requirements from UVA grads at DC firms as they do NYU and CLS grads. The difference between Chicago/CLS/NYU compared to UVA in DC is so minimal that the difference in hiring is going to come down to the students grades and resume. A DC firm isn't suddenly going to say "OMG we got a below median CLS grad, we better take him over that UVA grad whose above the median"! You're trying to make the difference between these schools to be a lot bigger than they actually are.


Cov
NYU
http://www.cov.com/biographies/List.asp ... e38249b2ab

UVA

http://www.cov.com/biographies/List.asp ... fb16d27274

WC
NYU
http://www.wc.com/attorneys-search.html ... ton=Search
UVA
http://www.wc.com/attorneys-search.html ... ton=Search
Chicago
http://www.wc.com/attorneys-search.html ... ton=Search

CLS
http://www.wc.com/attorneys-search.html ... ton=Search

Hogan


CLS
--LinkRemoved--

NYU
--LinkRemoved--

UVA

--LinkRemoved--

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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby kurama20 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:12 am

JSUVA2012 wrote:LOL @ easily being able to discern class rank from firm bios. That's just NOT possible for a lot of schools. See: UVA. The only real indicator will be Law Review/Order of the Coif. Outside of whether they were top ~10%, you won't be able to know anything about someone's class rank.


LOL no joke. Here's a good guess though, if they aren't law review or coif that probably means that they are not top 10 percent no?

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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby RVP11 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:14 am

kurama20 wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:LOL @ easily being able to discern class rank from firm bios. That's just NOT possible for a lot of schools. See: UVA. The only real indicator will be Law Review/Order of the Coif. Outside of whether they were top ~10%, you won't be able to know anything about someone's class rank.


LOL no joke. Here's a good guess though, if they aren't law review or coif that probably means that they are not top 10 percent no?


Yes. Can't you read?

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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby los blancos » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:17 am

This is the list I would've gave:
Y/H/S
Boalt
Columbia/Chicago
NYU/Michigan/Penn
UCLA/UVA/Northwestern/Duke
Cornell
USC/GULC



(One of the reasons I really want Mich is because my impression is that it does very well in CA just given the number of CA firms that do OCI there)

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RVP11
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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby RVP11 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:18 am

kurama20 wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:
kurama20 wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:Hey Kurama - my PM inbox is still empty.

Logical conclusion: these 2Ls and 3Ls at UVA to whom you've supposedly spoken...don't exist.


Hey JSUVA Another logical conclusion: you don't know what you're talking about. NYU will outplace UVA in DC and Boalt in Cali, really? Have you gotten that into TLS? What makes matters worse is that none of what you are saying lines up with the placement stats.


I never debated NYU > UVA in DC. Try reading.

Placement stats? Please find me stats showing that DC firms hire deeper in UVA's class than NYU's class. Then cite them. You can't say my opinions don't line up with placement stats when the stats don't exist.



LOL I"m glad you started with that Bullshit. You can look at these firms websites for yourself and see that they have no problem hiring UVA grads with comparable stats to NYU one's. Besides, no one ever said that firms would "go deeper" into NYU's class than UVA ( maybe you should try reading)--- just that NYU won't get you a job in DC easier than UVA will. I love it when people start with that shit, it's their way of trying to weasel around the fact that hiring doesn't always follow the US News rankings 100 percent. The fact of the matter is that even if you look at some of the pickiest DC firms, the firms look for similar academic qualifications from grads of either school. You can go through these firms and quickly see that they have the same basic grade requirements from UVA grads at DC firms as they do NYU and CLS grads. The difference between Chicago/CLS/NYU compared to UVA in DC is so minimal that the difference in hiring is going to come down to the students grades and resume. A DC firm isn't suddenly going to say "OMG we got a below median CLS grad, we better take him over that UVA grad whose above the median"! You're trying to make the difference between these schools to be a lot bigger than they actually are.


Cov
NYU
http://www.cov.com/biographies/List.asp ... e38249b2ab

UVA

http://www.cov.com/biographies/List.asp ... fb16d27274

WC
NYU
http://www.wc.com/attorneys-search.html ... ton=Search
UVA
http://www.wc.com/attorneys-search.html ... ton=Search
Chicago
http://www.wc.com/attorneys-search.html ... ton=Search

CLS
http://www.wc.com/attorneys-search.html ... ton=Search

Hogan


CLS
--LinkRemoved--

NYU
--LinkRemoved--

UVA

--LinkRemoved--


None of this is a citation to an actual statistic. Again, you can't argue that my opinions don't conform with statistical evidence unless there is actually some statistical evidence in existence.

If you really want, you should go through each firm and calculate the % of attorneys from UVA who are LR vs. the % of attorneys from Columbia/Chicago who are LR for each firm. Then report back. Then we can at least pretend there are SOME statistics on this.
Last edited by RVP11 on Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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kurama20
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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby kurama20 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:19 am

Space_Cowboy wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:
Space_Cowboy wrote:
Is the moral of the story that both of you are full of shit? :D


Here's how it went:

Kurama: it's X, I don't go to UVA but I've spoken to unknown people
JSUVA: no, it's Y, I actually go to UVA and have spoken to actual people (so it's logical to assume I know a little bit about UVA)
Kurama: you're wrong, Y doesn't comport with the statistics
JSUVA: there are no statistics
Kurama: yeah, there are no statistics, so your opinion is no better than mine
JSUVA: yes, it is, and it's logical to trust a UVA 1L vs. random 0L when discussing UVA's placement


LOL. Yeah, grade cutoffs are the only bits of data I'd put weight in. Although, the USNWR lawyer/judges ratings aren't a bad barometer of what firms think about the schools.


Look at the firm links I provided you. Like he said anyone who has coif is top 10 percent at UVA. NYU, Chicago, and CLS are even easier to tell because they have cum, magna, and summa type honors (Harlan, and James Kent for CLS. Honors and high honors etc. for Chicago). What you will see is that many of the CLS NYU and Chicago grads at the top DC firms have say James Kent and magna cum on their bios ie the equivalent of coif at UVA (at least for the magna and up). What you will also see is that just as there are UVA grad with no coif or raven society or law review who have been hired there are NYU grads with not even cum laude being hired. In other words their stats/grades are comparable. If you want to check out the grade comparisons even further Chicago and the rest of the schools actually break down the overall requirement for the various honors on their websites.

Don't let JUSVA fool you--- that shit isn't rocket science, it is actually pretty easy to figure out a student's overall academic qualifiers in the sense that you can know that they didn't graduate with "top" grades (ie top 10 percent or something). You can't figure that shit out to the decimal (which is what I guess JSUVA want) but you can definitely figure out a basic idea of where they stand. By the way the firms are even better at this, don't think they fall for that no grades garbage that schools are trying.

JSUVA2012 wrote:
kurama20 wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:LOL @ easily being able to discern class rank from firm bios. That's just NOT possible for a lot of schools. See: UVA. The only real indicator will be Law Review/Order of the Coif. Outside of whether they were top ~10%, you won't be able to know anything about someone's class rank.


LOL no joke. Here's a good guess though, if they aren't law review or coif that probably means that they are not top 10 percent no?


Yes. Can't you read?


LOL that obviously went way over your head.

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RVP11
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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby RVP11 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:21 am

Protip: the word "whether" allows for both the positive and the negative. See this sentence: "Outside of whether they were top ~10%, you won't be able to know anything about someone's class rank."

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kurama20
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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby kurama20 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:26 am

JSUVA2012 wrote:The word "whether" allows for both the positive and the negative. See this sentence: "Outside of whether they were top ~10%, you won't be able to know anything about someone's class rank."


All you need to know is that if they don't have coif then they were not in the top 10 percent. That's definitely enough to determine that the stats are comparable when you have the same kind of designator at say NYU, which has magna cum laude and means the same thing. In other words if you see an NYU grad and a UVA grad at a firm and they are magna for the NYU grad and coif for the UVA one, that means they have comparable grades. Honestly the only schools where the basic academic stats are as hard to figure out as you are trying to make them out to be are Yale, Stanford, and Boalt. It's actually really easy to figure it out for Chicago, CLS, and NYU.
Last edited by kurama20 on Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby RVP11 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:27 am

kurama20 wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:The word "whether" allows for both the positive and the negative. See this sentence: "Outside of whether they were top ~10%, you won't be able to know anything about someone's class rank."


All you need to know is that if they don't have coif then they were not in the top 10 percent. That's definitely enough to determine that the stats are comparable when you have the same kind of designator at say NYU, which has magna cum laude and means the same thing. In other words if you see an NYU grad and a UVA grad at a firm and they are magna for the NYU grad and coif for the UVA one, that means they have comparable grades.


And how did anything I wrote imply that I didn't grasp that point?




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