T14 for West Coast (LA)

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de5igual
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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby de5igual » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:10 pm

JSUVA2012 wrote:
markymark wrote:
I think this is generally wrong. I'd guess a UCLA median student would beat a median Cornell student with no CA ties. However, I'd much rather be a median Cornell student with excellent CA ties (grew up there/family, etc.) than a median UCLA student.

I think in this thread, as usual, people are confusing raw numbers and relative ease of getting a job.


+1

Any T14 + CA ties > UCLA/USC


really? even cornell and gtown? nationally, cornell and gulc aren't viewed as being significantly superior to ucla. you'd think that factoring in ucla's home town advantage that it would edge out cornell and gulc.

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A'nold
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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby A'nold » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:14 pm

I would say that it should be logically obvious that UCLA places like a t14 in L.A.

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TheWire
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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby TheWire » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:16 pm

I just dont understand the entitlement people seem to think that a "T14" has. Even if you are talking about #14 being across the country and # 15 being THE school in the market in question. It is slightly ridiculous from my perspective. This is not to say that a degree from cornell or GULC could not get you a job in LA...because it most def. can. But I don't think it has ANY advantage over UCLA.

IMO: top 10% UCLA > MANY t14s for LA placement

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RVP11
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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby RVP11 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:17 pm

f0bolous wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:
markymark wrote:
I think this is generally wrong. I'd guess a UCLA median student would beat a median Cornell student with no CA ties. However, I'd much rather be a median Cornell student with excellent CA ties (grew up there/family, etc.) than a median UCLA student.

I think in this thread, as usual, people are confusing raw numbers and relative ease of getting a job.


+1

Any T14 + CA ties > UCLA/USC


really? even cornell and gtown? nationally, cornell and gulc aren't viewed as being significantly superior to ucla. you'd think that factoring in ucla's home town advantage that it would edge out cornell and gulc.


I just don't see how "home town advantage" would come into play if the Cornell or GULC graduate is, say, a SoCal or LA native.

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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby RVP11 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:19 pm

TheWire wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:
markymark wrote:
I think this is generally wrong. I'd guess a UCLA median student would beat a median Cornell student with no CA ties. However, I'd much rather be a median Cornell student with excellent CA ties (grew up there/family, etc.) than a median UCLA student.

I think in this thread, as usual, people are confusing raw numbers and relative ease of getting a job.


+1

Any T14 + CA ties > UCLA/USC


not even...if u ask around any firms in LA, theyre almost 1/2 ucla 1/2 usc..u kind've cant discount that...do u think WUSTL has no pull in St. Louis?


How does that logically follow from what I said?

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TheWire
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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby TheWire » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:20 pm

^^^^ alumni network/oci in the area...theres no way cornell has as many west coast firms interview on their campus as UCLA does. Note that UCLA probably has nowhere near the amount of NYC firms interview on campus that cornell does

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TheWire
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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby TheWire » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:20 pm

JSUVA2012 wrote:
TheWire wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:
markymark wrote:
I think this is generally wrong. I'd guess a UCLA median student would beat a median Cornell student with no CA ties. However, I'd much rather be a median Cornell student with excellent CA ties (grew up there/family, etc.) than a median UCLA student.

I think in this thread, as usual, people are confusing raw numbers and relative ease of getting a job.


+1

Any T14 + CA ties > UCLA/USC


not even...if u ask around any firms in LA, theyre almost 1/2 ucla 1/2 usc..u kind've cant discount that...do u think WUSTL has no pull in St. Louis?


How does that logically follow from what I said?


the bold was what i was referring to

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RVP11
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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby RVP11 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:22 pm

TheWire wrote:^^^^ alumni network/oci in the area...theres no way cornell has as many west coast firms interview on their campus as UCLA does. Note that UCLA probably has nowhere near the amount of NYC firms interview on campus that cornell does


Here's the key: outside the top 25%, good luck getting any of those LA big firm interviews at UCLA.

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RVP11
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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby RVP11 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:23 pm

TheWire wrote:
the bold was what i was referring to


Err...so you respond to his comment that people are confusing raw numbers and relative ease of getting a job...by then confusing raw numbers and relative ease of getting a job?

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TheWire
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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby TheWire » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:25 pm

maybe you would be more open to this forum if i exclaimed that UVA was best in all markets?

stop hatin'

just trying to get other perspectives without UVA's trolling

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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby RVP11 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:31 pm

TheWire wrote:maybe you would be more open to this forum if i exclaimed that UVA was best in all markets?

stop hatin'

just trying to get other perspectives without UVA's trolling


Are you on crack? See: my claim that Columbia/Chicago do significantly better than UVA in DC, and my belief that UVA is equal to virtually every other 7-14 in terms of California placement.

I love UVA. I have a UVA avatar. UVA is in my username. But I've yet to make any absurd claim re: the strength of UVA's placement.

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TheWire
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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby TheWire » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:34 pm

I didn't claim you made any absurd statment...only that you seem to be arrogant and dismissive of other opinions...

/convo with JSUVA2012

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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby Fuser » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:42 pm

Basically for someone with no prior ties to CA:

Yale/Stanford/Harvard
Berkeley/Columbia/Chicago
UCLA
Michigan/USC/Georgetown/Cornell
Penn/Duke/Northwestern

However someone who grew up or has significant ties to CA:
Yale/Stanford/Harvard
Berkeley/Columbia/Chicago
Michigan/UCLA/Penn/Duke/Cornell/Northwestern/Georgetown/USC

I think we have this mentality in CA that if you can go to either Berkeley/UCLA why leave the state unless you are going to Harvard or Yale. It has a lot to do with undergrad I think because it really doesn't make sense to go to non-ivy private school out of state when you can go to a UC for half the cost. Although Michigan for some reason has a lot of prestige among the older crowd, but I think UVA and NYU fall victim to the why go there instead of Berkeley or UCLA crowd.

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MC Southstar
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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby MC Southstar » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:45 pm

Fuser wrote:Basically for someone with no prior ties to CA:

Yale/Stanford/Harvard
Berkeley/Columbia/Chicago
UCLA
Michigan/USC/Georgetown/Cornell
Penn/Duke/Northwestern

However someone who grew up or has significant ties to CA:
Yale/Stanford/Harvard
Berkeley/Columbia/Chicago
Michigan/UCLA/Penn/Duke/Cornell/Northwestern/Georgetown/USC

I think we have this mentality in CA that if you can go to either Berkeley/UCLA why leave the state unless you are going to Harvard or Yale. It has a lot to do with undergrad I think because it really doesn't make sense to go to non-ivy private school out of state when you can go to a UC for half the cost. Although Michigan for some reason has a lot of prestige among the older crowd, but I think UVA and NYU fall victim to the why go there instead of Berkeley or UCLA crowd.


Lol, wut?

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rw2264
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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby rw2264 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:49 pm

shadowfrost000 wrote:
Fuser wrote:Basically for someone with no prior ties to CA:

Yale/Stanford/Harvard
Berkeley/Columbia/Chicago
UCLA
Michigan/USC/Georgetown/Cornell
Penn/Duke/Northwestern

However someone who grew up or has significant ties to CA:
Yale/Stanford/Harvard
Berkeley/Columbia/Chicago
Michigan/UCLA/Penn/Duke/Cornell/Northwestern/Georgetown/USC

I think we have this mentality in CA that if you can go to either Berkeley/UCLA why leave the state unless you are going to Harvard or Yale. It has a lot to do with undergrad I think because it really doesn't make sense to go to non-ivy private school out of state when you can go to a UC for half the cost. Although Michigan for some reason has a lot of prestige among the older crowd, but I think UVA and NYU fall victim to the why go there instead of Berkeley or UCLA crowd.


Lol, wut?


this totally makes sense.

also, to uneducated people in california, berkeley is the best school in the world besides harvard and yale (and they've never heard of princeton).

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RVP11
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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby RVP11 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:52 pm

rw2264 wrote:
shadowfrost000 wrote:
Fuser wrote:Basically for someone with no prior ties to CA:

Yale/Stanford/Harvard
Berkeley/Columbia/Chicago
UCLA
Michigan/USC/Georgetown/Cornell
Penn/Duke/Northwestern

However someone who grew up or has significant ties to CA:
Yale/Stanford/Harvard
Berkeley/Columbia/Chicago
Michigan/UCLA/Penn/Duke/Cornell/Northwestern/Georgetown/USC

I think we have this mentality in CA that if you can go to either Berkeley/UCLA why leave the state unless you are going to Harvard or Yale. It has a lot to do with undergrad I think because it really doesn't make sense to go to non-ivy private school out of state when you can go to a UC for half the cost. Although Michigan for some reason has a lot of prestige among the older crowd, but I think UVA and NYU fall victim to the why go there instead of Berkeley or UCLA crowd.


Lol, wut?


this totally makes sense.

also, to uneducated people in california, berkeley is the best school in the world besides harvard and yale (and they've never heard of princeton).


I didn't know uneducated people were doing hiring for law firms in California.

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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby Fuser » Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:00 pm

JSUVA2012 wrote:
rw2264 wrote:
shadowfrost000 wrote:
Fuser wrote:Basically for someone with no prior ties to CA:

Yale/Stanford/Harvard
Berkeley/Columbia/Chicago
UCLA
Michigan/USC/Georgetown/Cornell
Penn/Duke/Northwestern

However someone who grew up or has significant ties to CA:
Yale/Stanford/Harvard
Berkeley/Columbia/Chicago
Michigan/UCLA/Penn/Duke/Cornell/Northwestern/Georgetown/USC

I think we have this mentality in CA that if you can go to either Berkeley/UCLA why leave the state unless you are going to Harvard or Yale. It has a lot to do with undergrad I think because it really doesn't make sense to go to non-ivy private school out of state when you can go to a UC for half the cost. Although Michigan for some reason has a lot of prestige among the older crowd, but I think UVA and NYU fall victim to the why go there instead of Berkeley or UCLA crowd.


Lol, wut?


this totally makes sense.

also, to uneducated people in california, berkeley is the best school in the world besides harvard and yale (and they've never heard of princeton).


I didn't know uneducated people were doing hiring for law firms in California.


This was posted before http://californiabar.globl.org/ but it's a good tool to search by law schools. If you compare UVA and Georgetown for example, the latter has nearly 3,000 alumni in California, while UVA has about half as many. This could be because of self-selection, or other factors like class size but I would think at least some of it has to do with the strength of alumni networks in California.

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davidicus
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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby davidicus » Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:05 pm

I interviewed with a Northwestern alum who's been working in LA for the past 10+ years. He said that if he had it to do over again, knowing he wanted to end up in CA, he would have gone to USC or UCLA. He said that half of the partners on most hiring committees in LA are from USC and the other half are from UCLA. In his words - unless you go to a top 5 school, you won't be able to do better in LA/OC than USC/UCLA.

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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby postitnotes » Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:22 pm

davidicus wrote:I interviewed with a Northwestern alum who's been working in LA for the past 10+ years. He said that if he had it to do over again, knowing he wanted to end up in CA, he would have gone to USC or UCLA. He said that half of the partners on most hiring committees in LA are from USC and the other half are from UCLA. In his words - unless you go to a top 5 school, you won't be able to do better in LA/OC than USC/UCLA.


LA is not CA (SF is totally another ballgame) and I am highly skeptical of this...

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kurama20
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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby kurama20 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:14 pm

JSUVA2012 wrote:
kurama20 wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:Boalt outplacing Chicago? I'd say no. I don't think there's going to be a discernible difference between Penn, NYU, Michigan, UVA, Duke, and Northwestern, either.


I know so. You're heavily underestimating home town advantage. Boalt runs Cali after HYS (it's basically tied with Columbia out there). You can really see Boalt's Cali strength with the very selective lit boutiques in Cali (Irell, Keker, Munger)Chicago is barely behind them though. It's sort of akin to how Columbia and Chicago really don't do much better than UVA in DC. Part of the reason Boalt can pull the "no grade" system even though they aren't HYS is because of how they are viewed in the Cali market. From what I've seen/heard from people, Cali firms don't even see Boalt as being that far below Stanford.


You're heavily overestimating your own knowledge, and underestimating self-selection. "Home town advantage" only goes so far - markets get flooded with their local school's grads, and firms like to maintain diversity in each shrinking SA class.

And yes, Columbia and Chicago do better than UVA just about everywhere. Including in DC.

Please talk to more 2Ls or 1Ls who are clued in to how OCI went this last fall. "Cross-coasters" and people who avoided the markets most of their classmates went for did quite well. Getting DC BigLaw from UVA was much harder than getting DC BigLaw from YHSCC.


I'm starting to wonder if you really know what you're talking about when it comes to UVA's placement. The 2l's and 3L's I've talked to (who have gone through OCI while you haven't. ). Don't agree with your points. Also CLS and Chicago don't do better than UVA in DC, just like they don't do better than Boalt in Cali. Your comments don't backup with the real deal facts either. If you look at even the most elite DC firms the only schools that outdo UVA are HYS--that's it. Furthermore even mr. Top 6 (who attended Chicago) says that Chicago won't blow out schools at the MBV level in their home markets (it will come down to grades and resume). He talked about how Harvard and Yale seem to be the only schools whose name alone just about totally trumps lower ranked schools. It will beat them everywhere else hardcore (which is what makes Chicago and Columbia stronger than UVA and Boalt) though. On top of that I asked questions from a Chicago person on lsd and even he told me that DC is a tough market for them. A Chicago/CLS applicant versus a UVA applicant for a DC job will come down to grades (the HYS person will get the bump though). DC firms love UVA. On top of that I think I saw you say that NYU will outplace UVA in DC as well, that's just plain wrong.

I've also found this diversity of class thing to be somewhat TLS made garbage. That holds true for Yale and Stanford (and honestly that has more to do with their incredible prestige than anything else) but really that rarity thing is way way overplayed. The truth is that all schools outside of HY face some type of regional bias/preference in hiring. People like hiring from schools they are familiar with, it isn't all self selection. The self selection magic bullet is one of the most overplayed comments on TLS, it does have merit, but not as much as people make it out to.

The whole Cornell being better than UCLA/USC for Cali is just TLS elitism and top 14 entitlement.

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RVP11
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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby RVP11 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:04 am

Feel free to PM me the names of the 2Ls and 3Ls you've talked to. See, I actually go to UVA, so I can talk to these mysterious people.

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Space_Cowboy
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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby Space_Cowboy » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:19 am

kurama20 wrote:The whole Cornell being better than UCLA/USC for Cali is just TLS elitism and top 14 entitlement.


+1. Anyone who thinks Cornell beats UCLA for LA (or even CA) employment is nuts.

From a couple of smaller, but elite Bay Area firms...
--LinkRemoved--
http://www.fenwick.com/careers/

OCI schedules aren't everything, but these firms don't even bother with Cornell, while going to the somewhat nearby NYC for NYU and Columbia. I like UCLA/USC grads' chances a lot better than Cornell grads'.

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RVP11
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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby RVP11 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:37 am

JSUVA2012 wrote:Feel free to PM me the names of the 2Ls and 3Ls you've talked to. See, I actually go to UVA, so I can talk to these mysterious people.


My inbox: crickets.

I call BS on these UVA 2L and 3Ls to whom you've supposedly spoken.

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im_blue
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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby im_blue » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:53 am

Yale/Stanford/Harvard
Columbia/Chicago
Berkeley
NYU/Michigan/UVA/Penn/Duke/Northwestern
Cornell/GULC/UCLA/USC

tranandy
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Re: T14 for West Coast (LA)

Postby tranandy » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:56 pm

There is just no evidence that Cornell places better than UCLA in LA (or probably in California) other than blind elitism and allegiance to arbitrary rankings. It doesn't matter whether the Cornell grad has ties to California or not.

Some evidence:
1. http://www.mto.com/lawyers/

Munger, Tolles, Olson is one of the elite firms in LA. 15 UCLA grads, 0 Cornell.

http://www.irell.com/professionals.html?results

Irell & Manella is another elite LA firm. It has 26 UCLA grads, 1 Cornell.

The above indicates that even Cornell grads with ties to LA have a tough time breaking into the elite LA firms.

2. http://californiabar.globl.org

Los Angeles County has 5642 UCLA grads. 193 Cornell grads. About a 30:1 difference. That's more than self-selection, that is the benefit of the vast network and home town advantage that UCLA grads have and, in all likelihood, the preference employers have for UCLA grads. In all of California, there are 893 Cornell grads and 10872. The difference is less dramatic, but still 12:1 in favor of UCLA.

3. As stated by another poster, many firms in California neither do resume drops or OCI at Cornell, but most do OCI at UCLA. Even if a Cornell grad was at the top of his class, he wouldn't get his foot in the door of many Cali firms without some connections often times. According to NALP, 180 firms in California interview at UCLA, while 49 do at Cornell. 69 firms in LA interview at UCLA, 17 do the same at Cornell.

--LinkRemoved--

4. --LinkRemoved--

The above site tracks how many prestigious 9th circuit clerkships UCLA and Cornell grads have gotten in recent years. UCLA has easily outplaced Cornell on the west coast. The information gives you a rough sense of how federal judges, who actually make hiring decisions, view the relative quality of the law schools. As you can see, there are many T14 schools that perform well. Cornell is not one of them though. Moreover, federal judges don't usually care about students with local ties or home-town ties so you don't need account for that. Judges only hire what they feel are the best candidates.

5. UCLA's median GPA and LSAT are both higher than Cornell's. Why would a California hiring director prefer a non-local grad from 3000 miles away who, on paper, is not even academically more qualified than the local grad? Only a person who blindly follows minute differences in the US News rankings would do that. Fortunately, hiring directors aren't as gullible as prelaw students.

UCLA is not better in California than HYS, Berkeley and probably a few other schools, but it is not below Cornell.




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