WUSTL vs. Notre Dame vs. Minnesota

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camstant
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WUSTL vs. Notre Dame vs. Minnesota

Postby camstant » Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:46 am

I have similar scholarship offers from ND and MN, and for the sake of simplicity, assume WUSTL too. I know I want to ultimately work in the midwest, but are there significant midwest mobility / placement differences between the three to consider or just go to the one with the best $$ offer?

flexer
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Re: WUSTL vs. Notre Dame vs. Minnesota

Postby flexer » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:37 pm

I'm also curious about this. It would be nice if someone could offer some insight.

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Thomas Jefferson
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Re: WUSTL vs. Notre Dame vs. Minnesota

Postby Thomas Jefferson » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:32 pm

Nightrunner wrote:Honestly, if you're in the Midwest you will probably be looking at remarkably similar options for any of those schools.

If you know what city you want to practice in (e.g. Chicago), then look at the numbers for each school. If you have no idea other than "midwest," you might just want to take the best offer you get.


As someone looking at WUSTL, UMN, and a few other schools, I see a lot to the "just go where it's cheapest" approach when deciding between such similar schools. However, in cases such as the OP's where the money is comparable, what other marginal considerations could tip the scales one way or the other? (I realize, for something like this, the analysis becomes very idiosyncratic and based upon the applicant's preferences, but I'm wondering if there are ANY general comments that could be made regarding this very tough decision.)

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stratocophic
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Re: WUSTL vs. Notre Dame vs. Minnesota

Postby stratocophic » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:41 pm

Thomas Jefferson wrote:
Nightrunner wrote:Honestly, if you're in the Midwest you will probably be looking at remarkably similar options for any of those schools.

If you know what city you want to practice in (e.g. Chicago), then look at the numbers for each school. If you have no idea other than "midwest," you might just want to take the best offer you get.


As someone looking at WUSTL, UMN, and a few other schools, I see a lot to the "just go where it's cheapest" approach when deciding between such similar schools. However, in cases such as the OP's where the money is comparable, what other marginal considerations could tip the scales one way or the other? (I realize, for something like this, the analysis becomes very idiosyncratic and based upon the applicant's preferences, but I'm wondering if there are ANY general comments that could be made regarding this very tough decision.)


WUSTL's facilities are absolutely ballin', based on the tour I took a few months ago. Great architecture and support equipment (A/V stuff and other techie turn-ons). I also liked the classrooms much better than the ones at Emory, and maybe even more than Vandy's. The Bryan Cave Moot Courtroom's pretty awesome, as is the fact that the 8th Circuit COA holds sessions there every so often. I'm going to be pretty sad if I end up turning them down.

Also, WUSTL and ND place better in Biglaw than MN. Difference between WUSTL and ND isn't enough to be significant in that respect, but WUSTL does have a home market to fall back on (St. Louis is a good secondary/tertiary market). ND has no such luxury, which can cause problems for people at the medians (or so I've heard).

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2443758843

Geist13
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Re: WUSTL vs. Notre Dame vs. Minnesota

Postby Geist13 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:52 pm

For me, the location will play a big role. We're not just talking about one's quality of life for three years. You have to ask yourself, what if my best job opportunity is in this city? Can I live here beyond law school?

I think Minnesota's lower big firm placement is important if you're dead set on biglaw. However if you're not, the 8-9% difference doesn't seem as significant.

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stratocophic
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Re: WUSTL vs. Notre Dame vs. Minnesota

Postby stratocophic » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:59 pm

Geist13 wrote:For me, the location will play a big role. We're not just talking about one's quality of life for three years. You have to ask yourself, what if my best job opportunity is in this city? Can I live here beyond law school?

I think Minnesota's lower big firm placement is important if you're dead set on biglaw. However if you're not, the 8-9% difference doesn't seem as significant.


Right, completely depends on what you want after graduation. I don't necessarily need Biglaw, but I want at least patent/corporate midlaw and am 0% interested in PI. I didn't apply to schools w/o built-in markets and at least some reach.

hugoboss
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Re: WUSTL vs. Notre Dame vs. Minnesota

Postby hugoboss » Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:05 pm

although they all place in the "midwest" the locations are actually not that close together. Minnesota dominates the northern midwest. WUSTL and Notre Dame cater more-so to the southern midwest. that could make a difference.
notre dame's sport is football. minnesota's is hockey. wustls is??????

Geist13
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Re: WUSTL vs. Notre Dame vs. Minnesota

Postby Geist13 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:13 pm

hugoboss wrote:although they all place in the "midwest" the locations are actually not that close together. Minnesota dominates the northern midwest. WUSTL and Notre Dame cater more-so to the southern midwest. that could make a difference.
notre dame's sport is football. minnesota's is hockey. wustls is??????


Agreed. Sometimes these boards make it seem as though midwest=chicago. Sort of an all roads lead to chicago (and if not, they don't lead anywhere) type or deal. But really these schools have different markets in very different areas.

You haven't heard? The WUSTL Bears Men's Basketball team is ranked #1 in the nation ... in D-3.

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stratocophic
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Re: WUSTL vs. Notre Dame vs. Minnesota

Postby stratocophic » Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:18 pm

hugoboss wrote:although they all place in the "midwest" the locations are actually not that close together. Minnesota dominates the northern midwest. WUSTL and Notre Dame cater more-so to the southern midwest. that could make a difference.
notre dame's sport is football. minnesota's is hockey. wustls is??????


The northern and southern midwest do not represent major legal markets. Only 1/3 of WUSTL grads stay in St. Louis, and I'd imagine the number is probably more like 1/30 for ND. Portability is going to matter more than the nearby market for people who don't intend to stay in the immediate vicinity of these schools. Chicago isn't a primary target for any of these three schools, as UChi, Northwestern, Michigan, and UIUC are all ahead in the pecking order. Top grads will probably reach for the coasts (primarily east) and Chicago.

WUSTL's is Major League Baseball. That and the aforementioned back-to-back DivIII champion men's basketball team :lol:

redginseng
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Re: WUSTL vs. Notre Dame vs. Minnesota

Postby redginseng » Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:41 am

If you want more portability, go with Wustl or ND. If money is not a factor, the choice should be between Wustl or ND, unless you want to stay in MN.

Between Wustl and ND, ND has ~5% advantage of combined nlj250 + fed clerkship placement. But what's more important is 2010 data. Some are speculating horrible numbers for the two. Wustl had st louis market to fall on but ND has nothing, so it'll be interesting to see the placement data.

Further, St louis and South Bend are very different. Some people like college towns, but I think generally more would prefer to live somewhere more urbanized than South Bend.

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Re: WUSTL vs. Notre Dame vs. Minnesota

Postby savetheturtles » Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:09 am

Chicago isn't a primary target for any of these three schools, as UChi, Northwestern, Michigan, and UIUC are all ahead in the pecking order. Top grads will probably reach for the coasts (primarily east) and Chicago.

Definitely disagree with this. While ND and WUSTL grads are more geographically dispersed than UIUC, Chicago is still their primary market and I wouldn't say that UIUC is ahead of them in the pecking order (at least not enough to make any meaningful difference, compared to UC/NW/UM). UIUC just has more grads in Chicago firms because thats pretty much the only major market their grads target. In the past, you pretty much had to be top 1/3 at any of the three schools to get a job. Of course, all three schools' past OCIs were bloodbaths.

And I just wanted to point out that while it's true that WUSTL has a "home market" in St Louis, there might be the problem of St Louis firms seeing a WUSTL student with no ties as a flight risk. Still, at least you have a chance. Of the three, UMN definitely has their market on lock.

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chadwick218
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Re: WUSTL vs. Notre Dame vs. Minnesota

Postby chadwick218 » Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:19 am

All else equal, ND unless you are averse to living in South Bend. Lay prestige aside, I would also argue in favor of Minnesota over WUSTL.

ND > MINN > WUSTL

Both ND and WUSTL were absolutely crushed this year in OCI. I haven't heard anything personally w/r/t Minnesota.

keg411
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Re: WUSTL vs. Notre Dame vs. Minnesota

Postby keg411 » Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:28 am

chadwick218 wrote:All else equal, ND unless you are averse to living in South Bend. Lay prestige aside, I would also argue in favor of Minnesota over WUSTL.

ND > MINN > WUSTL

Both ND and WUSTL were absolutely crushed this year in OCI. I haven't heard anything personally w/r/t Minnesota.


I'd be curious of the three of this group which school has done the best at helping 2L's get summer jobs (not necessarily biglaw SA's, but just good jobs) outside of OCI.

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chadwick218
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Re: WUSTL vs. Notre Dame vs. Minnesota

Postby chadwick218 » Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:50 am

keg411 wrote:
chadwick218 wrote:All else equal, ND unless you are averse to living in South Bend. Lay prestige aside, I would also argue in favor of Minnesota over WUSTL.

ND > MINN > WUSTL

Both ND and WUSTL were absolutely crushed this year in OCI. I haven't heard anything personally w/r/t Minnesota.


I'd be curious of the three of this group which school has done the best at helping 2L's get summer jobs (not necessarily biglaw SA's, but just good jobs) outside of OCI.


My thought is that outside of biglaw, ND would given its breadth and reach. ND also seems to place much better into PI and Gov't than MINN and WUSTL.

keg411
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Re: WUSTL vs. Notre Dame vs. Minnesota

Postby keg411 » Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:43 am

chadwick218 wrote:
keg411 wrote:
chadwick218 wrote:All else equal, ND unless you are averse to living in South Bend. Lay prestige aside, I would also argue in favor of Minnesota over WUSTL.

ND > MINN > WUSTL

Both ND and WUSTL were absolutely crushed this year in OCI. I haven't heard anything personally w/r/t Minnesota.


I'd be curious of the three of this group which school has done the best at helping 2L's get summer jobs (not necessarily biglaw SA's, but just good jobs) outside of OCI.


My thought is that outside of biglaw, ND would given its breadth and reach. ND also seems to place much better into PI and Gov't than MINN and WUSTL.


Thanks; yea that would make sense :).




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