Rank schools for Chicago legal Market only

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09042014
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Re: Rank schools for Chicago legal Market only

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:53 am

Kobe_Teeth wrote:I just read on UIUC's website that they are the third best placing school in Chicago.

FWIW...


I think that answers the question about UIUC being ahead of WUSTL and ND in Chicago.

This may be UIUC trolling but I think they'll end up a T20 school in ten years.

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im_blue
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Re: Rank schools for Chicago legal Market only

Postby im_blue » Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:37 am

Kobe_Teeth wrote:I just read on UIUC's website that they are the third best placing school in Chicago.

FWIW...


Dean Pless claimed that above-median Illinois grads got biglaw in Chicago (pre-ITE), so they look like a strong third behind Chi/NU. Of course, ITE their biglaw placement has plummeted relative to Chi/NU.

postitnotes
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Re: Rank schools for Chicago legal Market only

Postby postitnotes » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:32 am

I think some of you are confusing percentile in class needed to land a job (relative ease) and raw numbers placed by a school in Chicago. Obviously only the first matters which is why a school like Illinois would not be "third" in any ranking.

Harvard/Yale/Stanford? (I don't even know about Stanford...)
Chicago
Columbia
Michigan
Northwestern
the rest of the t-14 minus a few.
gap
TTT

Michigan may have used to place fewer into biglaw than Northwestern, but that's because it placed more into clerkships and prestigious public interest.

As for Illinois, I think the Dean mentioned in a national newspaper how a ton of firms didn't even bother going to its OCI but only went to Chicago, Michigan and Northwestern's.

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The Brainalist
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Re: Rank schools for Chicago legal Market only

Postby The Brainalist » Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:13 pm

I've talked to a couple of lawyers who grew up around Chicago, and they say, out there, it seemed like it was Yale, Harvard, and Chicago, then just everyone else. Basically, Chicago is the Harvard of Chicago.

jerjon2
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Re: Rank schools for Chicago legal Market only

Postby jerjon2 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:07 pm

The Brainalist wrote:I've talked to a couple of lawyers who grew up around Chicago, and they say, out there, it seemed like it was Yale, Harvard, and Chicago, then just everyone else. Basically, Chicago is the Harvard of Chicago.


No love for Northwestern?

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Dick Whitman
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Re: Rank schools for Chicago legal Market only

Postby Dick Whitman » Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:12 pm

starstruck393 wrote:
hiro86 wrote:NU is clearly better for Chicago big law than Michigan. The fact that NU has consistently out placed Michigan in big law (in general) is all the evidence one needs.


That's not clear at all. I'd argue that the numbers are from self selection. Without more data you can't make a determination on which is better, only on which places more...


They're not unrelated. It's much, much easier to get a job somewhere with an existing pipeline from your school, and the bigger the pipeline, the better.

postitnotes
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Re: Rank schools for Chicago legal Market only

Postby postitnotes » Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:31 pm

-
Last edited by postitnotes on Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kobe_Teeth
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Re: Rank schools for Chicago legal Market only

Postby Kobe_Teeth » Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:39 pm

postitnotes wrote:I think some of you are confusing percentile in class needed to land a job (relative ease) and raw numbers placed by a school in Chicago. Obviously only the first matters which is why a school like Illinois would not be "third" in any ranking.


When I posted that UIUC was 3rd in placement in Chicago, I was assuming that we all knew that the t-14 get split up around the country so their raw numbers might low in a given market. I posted it because UIUC after the t-14, for the Chicago legal market, is quite the heavyweight. I would assume its only post t-14 real contender would be Notre Dame.

The alumni network for ND and UIUC in Chicago is extremely large and extremely proud.

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Son of Cicero
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Re: Rank schools for Chicago legal Market only

Postby Son of Cicero » Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:53 pm

postitnotes wrote:Harvard/Yale/Stanford? (I don't even know about Stanford...)
Chicago
Columbia
Michigan
Northwestern
the rest of the t-14 minus a few.
gap
TTT


postitnotes wrote:For Chicago it's:
YHS
Chicago
Michigan/Northwestern.

I'm confident that your hierarchy is reliable.

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The Brainalist
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Re: Rank schools for Chicago legal Market only

Postby The Brainalist » Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:19 pm

jerjon2 wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:I've talked to a couple of lawyers who grew up around Chicago, and they say, out there, it seemed like it was Yale, Harvard, and Chicago, then just everyone else. Basically, Chicago is the Harvard of Chicago.


No love for Northwestern?


One of them went to NU for undergrad. He loved the school, but I got the impression that Chicago's reputation was like "geniuses go there." I know that's weird, given that their undergrads are also ranked similar. I think Chicago's reputation in the Chicago area is kind of different. Like people spend their days splitting atoms there or something. I think that reputation carries through to their law school somehow. Maybe it is like the difference between Harvard and MIT. I don't know.

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im_blue
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Re: Rank schools for Chicago legal Market only

Postby im_blue » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:00 am

The Brainalist wrote:
jerjon2 wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:I've talked to a couple of lawyers who grew up around Chicago, and they say, out there, it seemed like it was Yale, Harvard, and Chicago, then just everyone else. Basically, Chicago is the Harvard of Chicago.


No love for Northwestern?


One of them went to NU for undergrad. He loved the school, but I got the impression that Chicago's reputation was like "geniuses go there." I know that's weird, given that their undergrads are also ranked similar. I think Chicago's reputation in the Chicago area is kind of different. Like people spend their days splitting atoms there or something. I think that reputation carries through to their law school somehow. Maybe it is like the difference between Harvard and MIT. I don't know.


As far as undergrad reputation, Chicago has a reputation for pre-PhD (read: nerdy) students, while Northwestern has more pre-professional students like most Ivies. It's actually quite similar to MIT vs Harvard, Caltech vs Stanford, etc.

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JCougar
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Re: Rank schools for Chicago legal Market only

Postby JCougar » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:13 am

I recently reviewed the big firms' websites (V100) in Chicago to see who actually placed their graduates as partners and associates. It seemed that I saw as many people from Michigan as I did from Northwestern. The geographic distance didn't seem to hurt Michigan. UIUC was only slightly behind these two. Less people from Chicago, but we're simply talking about sheer number, and Chicago's class size is smaller and probably more geographically dispersed.

WUSTL seemed to have a semi-strong presence, Notre Dame a little less so (also probably due to geographic dispersion rather than class rank-based placement). Kent, DePaul and Loyola seemed to come next. Everything else seemed to simply be a smattering (Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconsin, OSU, Bloomington, Case), and the people from these schools that got in were all cum laude and on law review.

But I think a lot of this is self selection. I think the TLS community is different from average law school applicants. Most people tend to go locally and return locally, and don't really consider moving across the country to go to law school and then moving again for their first job. There's a lot more self-selection region-wise than people acknowledge, so placement by sheer numbers isn't going to mean much. Probably close to all the top 5% graduates from Kent, DePaul and Loyola stay in the city, whereas the top 5% from everywhere else more readily stay in the market closest to their school. Not everyone from the region is shooting for Chicago biglaw. I think a lot of the best-in-state public schools place a lot of people in the top firms in the bigger, medium-sized, or even smaller cities within that state -- which don't qualify for biglaw, but do give you a decent midlaw salary. So, from the Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconsin, OSU, Bloomington crop, at least, their placement is not necessarily worse, it's just that less people from these schools have a connection to Chicago or really want to live and work there.

If you really want to know how well a school places in a region, go to the law school's website and see how many top firms from the region participate in OCI there. Most schools have something like this, but you have to watch the wording of their OCI lists. Some list firms that only occasionally participate. Wisconsin has a list of only firms that participated in 2009 and each firm's interview criteria. Seemed like most biglaw firms have a cutoff of around top 25% there, with the exception of Jones Day, which is top 15% (and all wanted law review or moot court). But not very many from Chicago participated this year. It was mostly biglaw from Minneapolis and Milwaukee. My bet is that the prospects for Chicago are similar at the other Big-Ten state schools with similar rankings (shitty this year, but in general, top 20-25% will get you an interview). How many people end up going into Chicago biglaw after this probably dependent on desire and on their interviewing skills.

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Re: Rank schools for Chicago legal Market only

Postby postitnotes » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:22 am

JCougar wrote:I recently reviewed the big firms' websites (V100) in Chicago to see who actually placed their graduates as partners and associates. It seemed that I saw as many people from Michigan as I did from Northwestern. The geographic distance didn't seem to hurt Michigan. UIUC was only slightly behind these two. Less people from Chicago, but we're simply talking about sheer number, and Chicago's class size is smaller and probably more geographically dispersed.

WUSTL seemed to have a semi-strong presence, Notre Dame a little less so (also probably due to geographic dispersion rather than class rank-based placement). Kent, DePaul and Loyola seemed to come next. Everything else seemed to simply be a smattering (Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconsin, OSU, Bloomington, Case), and the people from these schools that got in were all cum laude and on law review.

But I think a lot of this is self selection. I think the TLS community is different from average law school applicants. Most people tend to go locally and return locally, and don't really consider moving across the country to go to law school and then moving again for their first job. There's a lot more self-selection region-wise than people acknowledge, so placement by sheer numbers isn't going to mean much. Probably close to all the top 5% graduates from Kent, DePaul and Loyola stay in the city, whereas the top 5% from everywhere else more readily stay in the market closest to their school. Not everyone from the region is shooting for Chicago biglaw. I think a lot of the best-in-state public schools place a lot of people in the top firms in the bigger, medium-sized, or even smaller cities within that state -- which don't qualify for biglaw, but do give you a decent midlaw salary. So, from the Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconsin, OSU, Bloomington crop, at least, their placement is not necessarily worse, it's just that less people from these schools have a connection to Chicago or really want to live and work there.

If you really want to know how well a school places in a region, go to the law school's website and see how many top firms from the region participate in OCI there. Most schools have something like this, but you have to watch the wording of their OCI lists. Some list firms that only occasionally participate. Wisconsin has a list of only firms that participated in 2009 and each firm's interview criteria. Seemed like most biglaw firms have a cutoff of around top 25% there, with the exception of Jones Day, which is top 15% (and all wanted law review or moot court). But not very many from Chicago participated this year. It was mostly biglaw from Minneapolis and Milwaukee. My bet is that the prospects for Chicago are similar at the other Big-Ten state schools with similar rankings (shitty this year, but in general, top 20-25% will get you an interview). How many people end up going into Chicago biglaw after this probably dependent on desire and on their interviewing skills.


Nice post. Not sarcasm either.

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Re: Rank schools for Chicago legal Market only

Postby cubswin » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:41 pm

im_blue wrote:As far as undergrad reputation, Chicago has a reputation for pre-PhD (read: nerdy) students.


UChicago: Where all the men look like Woody Allen. And the women do, too.

(With apologies to Chicago Law ad-comms.)

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jcunni5
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Re: Rank schools for Chicago legal Market only

Postby jcunni5 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:53 pm

1)h/y
2)Chicago/s
3)Columbia
4)michigan
5)nu
6) nyu\UVA/Penn
7)rest of t14
8) nd
9)uiuc/wustl
10) Kent/luc/depaul
11) John Marshall

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Tangerine Gleam
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Re: Rank schools for Chicago legal Market only

Postby Tangerine Gleam » Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:27 pm

Desert Fox wrote:So where did I go wrong?


Brutal anti-Boalt trolling.

09042014
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Re: Rank schools for Chicago legal Market only

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:35 pm

Tangerine Gleam wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:So where did I go wrong?


Brutal anti-Boalt trolling.


Is it better or worse that I just forgot it existed?

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Tangerine Gleam
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Re: Rank schools for Chicago legal Market only

Postby Tangerine Gleam » Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:30 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Tangerine Gleam wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:So where did I go wrong?


Brutal anti-Boalt trolling.


Is it better or worse that I just forgot it existed?


I'm not sure! It had a crazy ripple effect on the thread...everyone after you, even in giving their own ratings, also omitted Berkeley. :shock:

I'm no expert, but I imagine it places better in Chicago than DePaul and Iowa.

09042014
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Re: Rank schools for Chicago legal Market only

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:37 pm

Tangerine Gleam wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Tangerine Gleam wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:So where did I go wrong?


Brutal anti-Boalt trolling.


Is it better or worse that I just forgot it existed?


I'm not sure! It had a crazy ripple effect on the thread...everyone after you, even in giving their own ratings, also omitted Berkeley. :shock:

I'm no expert, but I imagine it places better in Chicago than DePaul and Iowa.


I figure its tied with Penn/UVA/NYU

Kobe_Teeth
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Re: Rank schools for Chicago legal Market only

Postby Kobe_Teeth » Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:05 pm

I was going to start a new thread but I think since this one is still alive and my thread is very much related I'll ask my question here.

I've applied to:
Kent
Loyola
DePaul
IU-B
Iowa
and Wisconsin.

I expect to get money from Kent, Loyola and DePaul. Also, my girlfriend is moving in and she is employed full-time and we'll probably be engaged relatively soon so she's pretty cool with paying for a few things I won't be able to afford (like food..ha ha FMfutureL).

I think I will get in at IU-B and quite possibly Iowa and no clue about Wisconsin. My chances for money at these schools is less likely and would probably be in smaller amounts, except at IU-B.

My question, let's say I get in at all of these schools and maybe even get a small amount of money at WI,IA or IU-B, if I want to practice in Chicago, where should I go to school?

cubswin
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Re: Rank schools for Chicago legal Market only

Postby cubswin » Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:03 pm

Kobe_Teeth wrote:I was going to start a new thread but I think since this one is still alive and my thread is very much related I'll ask my question here.

I've applied to:
Kent
Loyola
DePaul
IU-B
Iowa
and Wisconsin.

I expect to get money from Kent, Loyola and DePaul. Also, my girlfriend is moving in and she is employed full-time and we'll probably be engaged relatively soon so she's pretty cool with paying for a few things I won't be able to afford (like food..ha ha FMfutureL).

I think I will get in at IU-B and quite possibly Iowa and no clue about Wisconsin. My chances for money at these schools is less likely and would probably be in smaller amounts, except at IU-B.

My question, let's say I get in at all of these schools and maybe even get a small amount of money at WI,IA or IU-B, if I want to practice in Chicago, where should I go to school?


Not even going to try UIUC? It's free, and better for Chi than any of the above.

Since you aren't applying there, I assume you aren't shooting for biglaw or bust. Might be a good idea to just take whichever of Kent/Loyola/Depaul tosses you the most $$$.

I'm shooting for Chicago myself, but full disclosure: the only school I applied to out of the above is IU-B. I'm considering throwing Kent into the mix, though. Once they get around to waiving my goddamn fee. :x

rookhawk
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Re: Rank schools for Chicago legal Market only

Postby rookhawk » Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:06 pm

-
Last edited by rookhawk on Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cubswin
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Re: Rank schools for Chicago legal Market only

Postby cubswin » Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:15 pm

rookhawk wrote:Yale
Harvard
Chicago
Notre Dame
Northwestern
Michigan
Berkeley
Stanford
Penn
Cornell
Wisconsin
Illinois


Wisconsin > Illinois? :?

EDIT: ND > Stanford? :? :?

Kobe_Teeth
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Re: Rank schools for Chicago legal Market only

Postby Kobe_Teeth » Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:25 pm

cubswin wrote:
Kobe_Teeth wrote:I was going to start a new thread but I think since this one is still alive and my thread is very much related I'll ask my question here.

I've applied to:
Kent
Loyola
DePaul
IU-B
Iowa
and Wisconsin.

I expect to get money from Kent, Loyola and DePaul. Also, my girlfriend is moving in and she is employed full-time and we'll probably be engaged relatively soon so she's pretty cool with paying for a few things I won't be able to afford (like food..ha ha FMfutureL).

I think I will get in at IU-B and quite possibly Iowa and no clue about Wisconsin. My chances for money at these schools is less likely and would probably be in smaller amounts, except at IU-B.

My question, let's say I get in at all of these schools and maybe even get a small amount of money at WI,IA or IU-B, if I want to practice in Chicago, where should I go to school?


Not even going to try UIUC? It's free, and better for Chi than any of the above.

Since you aren't applying there, I assume you aren't shooting for biglaw or bust. Might be a good idea to just take whichever of Kent/Loyola/Depaul tosses you the most $$$.

I'm shooting for Chicago myself, but full disclosure: the only school I applied to out of the above is IU-B. I'm considering throwing Kent into the mix, though. Once they get around to waiving my goddamn fee. :x


I did apply to UIUC but I'm really not expecting to get in. (Low GPA and a 165 LSAT)

I am not BigLaw or bust.

I'm leaning Kent because its the best of the T2 Chicago schools and I actually like the programs they have. Loyola has completely underwhelmed me and DePaul actually sorta impressed me. I will be studying my ass off 1L and crossing fingers for a transfer to NW but not banking on it or finding it necessary. If I make 80k coming out i will be happy. I know ITE that's not entirely easy but I'm fairly confident in my connections and networking skills.

I do really like IU-B though but shelling out for the CoL is not appealing...

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JCougar
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Re: Rank schools for Chicago legal Market only

Postby JCougar » Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:30 pm

Kobe_Teeth wrote:I was going to start a new thread but I think since this one is still alive and my thread is very much related I'll ask my question here.

I've applied to:
Kent
Loyola
DePaul
IU-B
Iowa
and Wisconsin.

I expect to get money from Kent, Loyola and DePaul. Also, my girlfriend is moving in and she is employed full-time and we'll probably be engaged relatively soon so she's pretty cool with paying for a few things I won't be able to afford (like food..ha ha FMfutureL).

I think I will get in at IU-B and quite possibly Iowa and no clue about Wisconsin. My chances for money at these schools is less likely and would probably be in smaller amounts, except at IU-B.

My question, let's say I get in at all of these schools and maybe even get a small amount of money at WI,IA or IU-B, if I want to practice in Chicago, where should I go to school?


Go to the best school that you get into that offers the most money. It's all a moot point anyway if you're not going to at least finish in the top 25% of your class at any of those schools. The job prospects for the bottom 3/4ths of the class are pretty much the same. You'll have zero chance at biglaw unless you at least get top 25% and law review. I wouldn't go to Indiana, Iowa or Wisconsin unless either they offer you good money or you are comfortable practicing in those states as a backup plan. The difference between the schools ranked 25 on down is actually pretty small. At best, 75% are not getting biglaw, and at worst 90%.




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