Texas @ sticker vs. Indiana-Bloomington w/ $$$ Forum

[RTOTA38]

I'm interested in applying to PhD programs in political science either during or after law school to supplement my degree in the hopes of one day teaching, and if a career in academia doesn't pan out, I'll be applying to military JAG programs. I'm really not planning on gunning for big-money jobs.

Since neither are specifically lucrative careers money-wise, should I be worried about the debt Texas will leave me in (as an out-of-stater)? IUB gave me a full ride. On the other hand, Texas seems to have the upper hand in terms of putting students into lucrative clerkships and other such programs that are almost always necessary for anyone hoping to teach.
Location isn't a huge factor. I'm from the south, but I lived in the Midwest for three years during high school, and I'm really not worried about where I end up.

Any thoughts/opinions? I'm thrilled to have been admitted to each, and I'll be visiting both early this spring, but food for thought is appreciated.

[jelizabeth88]

I'm interested in applying to PhD programs in political science either during or after law school to supplement my degree in the hopes of one day teaching, and if a career in academia doesn't pan out, I'll be applying to military JAG programs. I'm really not planning on gunning for big-money jobs.

Since neither are specifically lucrative careers money-wise, should I be worried about the debt Texas will leave me in (as an out-of-stater)? IUB gave me a full ride. On the other hand, Texas seems to have the upper hand in terms of putting students into lucrative clerkships and other such programs that are almost always necessary for anyone hoping to teach.
Location isn't a huge factor. I'm from the south, but I lived in the Midwest for three years during high school, and I'm really not worried about where I end up.

Any thoughts/opinions? I'm thrilled to have been admitted to each, and I'll be visiting both early this spring, but food for thought is appreciated.

I got into UT as well with no scholarship and then into MN with $. So I don't have a full ride to compare to but have had similar thoughts. Something to think about though is whether or not you'll be able to get into the Phd programs (hard to predict, i know) at the schools you are thinking about and also if you really need both degrees.

Regardless, I'd go to Texas because you will have a way better shot at teaching even without the Phd (IMO) and it's a better school that will offer you way more opportunities. Also, doesn't JAG cover quite a bit of LS tuition?

[Sauer Grapes]

....

[Bankhead]

I'm a current IUB 1L. Wow, this one is hard. I'm going to think about it for a while.

Are you in-state or out-of-state at Texas. Figure out the total costs for 3 years at each and post them please. Include cost of living. Without the figures, people cannot help you make an intelligent decision.

Also, any chance you will be admitted to a T14?

[chadwick218]

UT clearly for academia, but this ultimately comes down to where you want to live in work if teaching does not work out for you. I haven't looked into this, but does UT have a Loan Forgiveness Program for anyone who pursues a PhD upon completion of law school ... some schools do (Harvard, I believe, comes to mind).

Personally, I would attend UT at sticker over IUB on a full-ride for placement purposes.

[RTOTA38]

I'm a current IUB 1L. Wow, this one is hard. I'm going to think about it for a while.

Are you in-state or out-of-state at Texas. Figure out the total costs for 3 years at each and post them please. Include cost of living. Without the figures, people cannot help you make an intelligent decision.

Also, any chance you will be admitted to a T14?

I'm out-of-state for both schools. Figuring a COL, book costs, and fees at around $14,000 for Texas and slightly less for IUB, I'd be looking at $58,000 annually for UT and, provided I successfully maintain the scholarship, only $12,000-13,000 for IUB. So, over three years, it's:
$174,000 for Texas
$36,000-39,000 for IUB
The COL, books and fees figures are all speculative, of course. If my numbers are off, let me know.
An app is still out at Duke, and I've been WL'ed at UVA. Deferred from Early Decision at Cornell.

[Jay-Electronica]

I'm a current IUB 1L. Wow, this one is hard. I'm going to think about it for a while.

Are you in-state or out-of-state at Texas. Figure out the total costs for 3 years at each and post them please. Include cost of living. Without the figures, people cannot help you make an intelligent decision.

Also, any chance you will be admitted to a T14?

I'm out-of-state for both schools. Figuring a COL, book costs, and fees at around $14,000 for Texas and slightly less for IUB, I'd be looking at $58,000 annually for UT and, provided I successfully maintain the scholarship, only $12,000-13,000 for IUB. So, over three years, it's:
$174,000 for Texas
$36,000-39,000 for IUB
The COL, books and fees figures are all speculative, of course. If my numbers are off, let me know.
An app is still out at Duke, and I've been WL'ed at UVA. Deferred from Early Decision at Cornell.

Wow! Thats a large disparity. Me, being a very debt averse person would say take the money and run.

I dont know if the employment prospects are large enough to totally ignore the fact that your debt will be a mole hill as opposed to a mountain.

[Aberzombie1892]

I'm out-of-state for both schools. Figuring a COL, book costs, and fees at around $14,000 for Texas and slightly less for IUB, I'd be looking at $58,000 annually for UT and, provided I successfully maintain the scholarship, only $12,000-13,000 for IUB. So, over three years, it's:
$174,000 for Texas
$36,000-39,000 for IUB
The COL, books and fees figures are all speculative, of course. If my numbers are off, let me know.
An app is still out at Duke, and I've been WL'ed at UVA. Deferred from Early Decision at Cornell.

Whoa whoa "provided I successfully maintain the scholarship?"

What are the stipulations?

Have you spoken to any students at IUB about what the first year median curve is?

Forgive me for saying this, but I would pick neither.

If you have:
A) an acceptance to Texas
B) a full ride to IUB

you should have decent scholarships at other schools...

i.e. SMU, Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Emory, USC, UCLA, Tulane, UF...

There are a many other schools that would probably put you in a better position than either of those schools (Less debt, different markets, etc).

Do you have any other pending apps aside from Duke, UVA, and Cornell?

[RTOTA38]

I'm out-of-state for both schools. Figuring a COL, book costs, and fees at around $14,000 for Texas and slightly less for IUB, I'd be looking at $58,000 annually for UT and, provided I successfully maintain the scholarship, only $12,000-13,000 for IUB. So, over three years, it's:
$174,000 for Texas
$36,000-39,000 for IUB
The COL, books and fees figures are all speculative, of course. If my numbers are off, let me know.
An app is still out at Duke, and I've been WL'ed at UVA. Deferred from Early Decision at Cornell.

Whoa whoa "provided I successfully maintain the scholarship?"

What are the stipulations?

Have you spoken to any students at IUB about what the first year median curve is?

Forgive me for saying this, but I would pick neither.

If you have:
A) an acceptance to Texas
B) a full ride to IUB

you should have decent scholarships at other schools...

i.e. SMU, Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Emory, USC, UCLA, Tulane, UF...

There are a many other schools that would probably put you in a better position than either of those schools (Less debt, different markets, etc).

Do you have any other pending apps aside from Duke, UVA, and Cornell?

Yes.
I have a not-quite-full scholarship at Tulane,
WL'ed at Notre Dame (still no idea how that happened),
in at 'Bama and LSU (no scholly info as of yet),
and an app still out at Vandy.
Didn't apply to UCLA or USC. I figured the COL there would just be wayyy too high.
I'm not a fan of the city of Atlanta, so no app to Emory either.

The only stipulations are that I maintain good standing. I have no reason to expect that I won't maintain it, I just felt it needed mentioning that it wasn't guaranteed.

[flcath]

I'm out-of-state for both schools. Figuring a COL, book costs, and fees at around $14,000 for Texas and slightly less for IUB, I'd be looking at $58,000 annually for UT and, provided I successfully maintain the scholarship, only $12,000-13,000 for IUB. So, over three years, it's:
$174,000 for Texas
$36,000-39,000 for IUB
The COL, books and fees figures are all speculative, of course. If my numbers are off, let me know.
An app is still out at Duke, and I've been WL'ed at UVA. Deferred from Early Decision at Cornell.

Whoa whoa "provided I successfully maintain the scholarship?"

What are the stipulations?

Have you spoken to any students at IUB about what the first year median curve is?

Forgive me for saying this, but I would pick neither.

If you have:
A) an acceptance to Texas
B) a full ride to IUB

you should have decent scholarships at other schools...

i.e. SMU, Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Emory, USC, UCLA, Tulane, UF...

There are a many other schools that would probably put you in a better position than either of those schools (Less debt, different markets, etc).

Do you have any other pending apps aside from Duke, UVA, and Cornell?

Yes.
I have a not-quite-full scholarship at Tulane,
WL'ed at Notre Dame (still no idea how that happened),
in at 'Bama and LSU (no scholly info as of yet),
and an app still out at Vandy.
Didn't apply to UCLA or USC. I figured the COL there would just be wayyy too high.
I'm not a fan of the city of Atlanta, so no app to Emory either.

The only stipulations are that I maintain good standing. I have no reason to expect that I won't maintain it, I just felt it needed mentioning that it wasn't guaranteed.

I agree with aberzombie. $174K is too much for UTexas. That having been said, UTexas is better-regarded than several T14s by academia--it's the LSAT/GPA figures (probably due to the in-state req.) that keep it out of the T14, the faculty is outstanding--and definitely on a different level than IU-B, which I feel is over-rated by USNWR right now.
I think your answer is somewhere in between (as aberzombie said). FWIW, I'm in the same position, but GULC is my Texas and Alabama is my IU-B (I'm thinking I'll be going to ND w/ good money).

Also, the obvious implication in your OP was that you wanted to teach law, but if you don't care about a big salary (the main incentive to pursue law vice academia), you should consider teaching in your PhD field. I teach (w/o a PhD) at the collegiate level right now, and the market is much easier to crack and provides a high level of job satisfaction and mobility.

[Bankhead]

I don't love either option here for you. IUB is over ranked, but Texas isn't worth 200k. Not ITE and not for your goals. If I have to choose one of these options, I'd go with the full ride. The price difference is overwhelming -- and IUB is a good (if not stellar) school.

Re: keeping the scholarship. It isn't hard. For our class it's top 60%, but I've heard they don't strictly enforce the cut offs.

TX isn't exactly an easy path into academia, and I don't think JAG would care about the slight (ok more than slight) advantage TX has in reputation over IUB.

Best of luck. This is as difficult a choice as I have seen. Hopefully you will get accepted to Duke and Cornell, both of which I would pay sticker for over an IUB full-ride. Also, what about taking some money at Emory or WUSTL or something?

[aguyingeorgia]

Academia - gotta go TX

JAG is way more competitive than it used to be... I'd say TX

[Bankhead]

Academia - gotta go TX

JAG is way more competitive than it used to be... I'd say TX

Competitive yeah, but not competitive in that they are going to care about a Texas grad over an IU grad.

JAG evaluates holistically.

And TX isn't worth another 150k for a 1% chance at legal academia.

[Esc]

Texas will do much better for academia. Our clerkship numbers are pretty sweet - 19 COA clerks for this cycle coming up, to start, and a good number of our grads have gone on to become federal judges and law profs.

But even as a complete Texas troll I have to agree with a lot of the other posters - free tuition to IUB beats out-of-state sticker at Texas with your non-biglaw goals. I couldn't accept 175k debt at Texas if the alternative was free tuition at a midrange T1. JAG, like a lot of public service programs, is a pretty holistic deal, and if you demonstrate your commitment to public service in your summer jobs and the rest of your resume, it is certainly attainable from IUB. Texas would serve you better, but not another 130-150k better.

By the way, the calculus changes completely if your scholarship has strings attached. I assume that "good standing" means simply that you keep your scholarship unless you are suspended, suffer academic discipline, or get arrested, or something. You should probably confirm this with IUB's admissions or finaid people, just to make sure there aren't any GPA requirements. If you find out that there are hidden strings, if you have to maintain a certain class rank or GPA, then definitely take Texas.

[flcath]

Texas will do much better for academia. Our clerkship numbers are pretty sweet - 19 COA clerks for this cycle coming up, to start, and a good number of our grads have gone on to become federal judges and law profs.

But even as a complete Texas troll I have to agree with a lot of the other posters - free tuition to IUB beats out-of-state sticker at Texas with your non-biglaw goals. I couldn't accept 175k debt at Texas if the alternative was free tuition at a midrange T1. JAG, like a lot of public service programs, is a pretty holistic deal, and if you demonstrate your commitment to public service in your summer jobs and the rest of your resume, it is certainly attainable from IUB. Texas would serve you better, but not another 130-150k better.

By the way, the calculus changes completely if your scholarship has strings attached. I assume that "good standing" means simply that you keep your scholarship unless you are suspended, suffer academic discipline, or get arrested, or something. You should probably confirm this with IUB's admissions or finaid people, just to make sure there aren't any GPA requirements. If you find out that there are hidden strings, if you have to maintain a certain class rank or GPA, then definitely take Texas.

Hey Esc, what's the word on out-of-state'rs getting in-state tuition after 1L at Texas? I've heard different things.

[BiteyTLS]

Those that are advising OP to attend Texas (at 170k debt) have been living in the imagination world of TLS for far too long.


Big-law are drying up for everyone with the exception of privileged T6s. Going to Texas and getting a slightly better shot than Indiana for 170k is NUTS. Might as well go Vegas and drop that money. You probably have a similar odds.

[flcath]

Those that are advising OP to attend Texas (at 170k debt) have been living in the imagination world of TLS for far too long.


Big-law are drying up for everyone with the exception of privileged T6s. Going to Texas and getting a slightly better shot than Indiana for 170k is NUTS. Might as well go Vegas and drop that money. You probably have a similar odds.

I wouldn't go that far, but I agree that the days of going to the best school that you can get into (at sticker) are gone... unless that school happens to be Yale (lucky fuckers).

The correct choice in this case is in between Texas and IU-B, and if OP for some reason *has* to pick one of the polar choices, then it's IU-B.

[Aqualibrium]

"Remain in good standing" usually means "don't fail."

If that is the case in this situation I am having a hard time understanding why this question is so tough. Despite the relative prestige of each school, the fact is you have a guaranteed full ride from a top 20 (yes theyve only been there for a short while) school. IMO barring admits from a t5 or maybe a t10 you go for the money. Jobs are hard to come by regardless of what name is on your degree these days. Leaving IU-B with only 30-40k in debt will place you in an enviable position regardless of your employment outlook.

[BiteyTLS]

"Remain in good standing" usually means "don't fail."

If that is the case in this situation I am having a hard time understanding why this question is so tough. Despite the relative prestige of each school, the fact is you have a guaranteed full ride from a top 20 (yes theyve only been there for a short while) school. IMO barring admits from a t5 or maybe a t10 you go for the money. Jobs are hard to come by regardless of what name is on your degree these days. Leaving IU-B with only 30-40k in debt will place you in an enviable position regardless of your employment outlook.

Nice to see sanity on TLS.

I have the letter, the IU-B language is odd. Sounds like just don't fail.

"you have been selected to receive one of this year's Law School Merit Scholarships. This scholarship will provide full non-resident tuition. The award is strictly merit-based and not dependent upon any showing of financial need. The award is renewable contingent upon your maintaining satisfactory progress at the end of your first year and each subsequent semester thereafter and not being disciplinarily sanctioned for professional or academic misconduct."

[Bankhead]

"Remain in good standing" usually means "don't fail."

If that is the case in this situation I am having a hard time understanding why this question is so tough. Despite the relative prestige of each school, the fact is you have a guaranteed full ride from a top 20 (yes theyve only been there for a short while) school. IMO barring admits from a t5 or maybe a t10 you go for the money. Jobs are hard to come by regardless of what name is on your degree these days. Leaving IU-B with only 30-40k in debt will place you in an enviable position regardless of your employment outlook.

I would at least wait until the new rankings come out before you commit to IUB. I know that it's just a USNWR ranking, but the new ranking should give you at least a vague idea of where the school is heading in the future. At least as far as reputation goes, that is.

[Bankhead]

"Remain in good standing" usually means "don't fail."

If that is the case in this situation I am having a hard time understanding why this question is so tough. Despite the relative prestige of each school, the fact is you have a guaranteed full ride from a top 20 (yes theyve only been there for a short while) school. IMO barring admits from a t5 or maybe a t10 you go for the money. Jobs are hard to come by regardless of what name is on your degree these days. Leaving IU-B with only 30-40k in debt will place you in an enviable position regardless of your employment outlook.

Nice to see sanity on TLS.

I have the letter, the IU-B language is odd. Sounds like just don't fail.

"you have been selected to receive one of this year's Law School Merit Scholarships. This scholarship will provide full non-resident tuition. The award is strictly merit-based and not dependent upon any showing of financial need. The award is renewable contingent upon your maintaining satisfactory progress at the end of your first year and each subsequent semester thereafter and not being disciplinarily sanctioned for professional or academic misconduct."

Yeah, it sounds pretty much guaranteed. For the last couple years IU have been "requiring" a 3.2 (on a 3.3 median curve). However, they have not actually been enforcing it in the great majority of cases -- so it makes sense that they would simply remove this stipulation. Perhaps they finally realize that top law schools don't pull these types of shenanigans and since they fashion themselves a top law school they should just guarantee the scholarships (as opposed to BLS/Cardozo).

[princepointe]

Great thread it appears. I would advise you to take the path of least debt to be honest. I'll be 27. I served USAF active duty from 2001-2008 and went to Texas Air National Guard until present. I have $0 school debt and it taste GOOD.lol. What i'm trying to say is once your about to make a huge life decision ( in your case prospects after Law School and in my case Law School or a year off) money plays a HUGE part. I grad from Texas UG in May and love it here but i'm happy I have the option to leave. If your over 100k in debt in this economy you may be stuck for practical reasons. No one on here can tell you what the legal market anywhere will be in 3-4 years I don't care how many post they have. What you have to do is decide what the best course of action is for yourself. I presume your a hard worker. Something i've learned in my military career is that it's not the smartest or the strongest that win, it's the well prepared and driven. If you produce quality work you'll get quality pay. Good luck in your decision man.

[vanwinkle]

IUB is going to remain a T1 school. You're getting a decent T1 education for almost free. $36,000 total? That's nothing compared to what so many people are graduating with.

Even if you can't get into JAG, you'll be free to pursue other PI/gov't jobs with that degree. You may not be able to get anything prestigious, but you don't need to; you'll be able to find decent respectable work if you're willing to look around, and you won't be buried under such crushing debt that you'll be anxiously trying to find high-paying work to pay it off.

People on TLS are often down on non-T14 schools, and being T14 (or in its shadow, as Texas is) really does help a lot, but given that you don't want to work for a law firm at all, go for the cheap degree and work your ass off networking during your 3 years so you have options if JAG won't take you.

[BiteyTLS]

"Remain in good standing" usually means "don't fail."

If that is the case in this situation I am having a hard time understanding why this question is so tough. Despite the relative prestige of each school, the fact is you have a guaranteed full ride from a top 20 (yes theyve only been there for a short while) school. IMO barring admits from a t5 or maybe a t10 you go for the money. Jobs are hard to come by regardless of what name is on your degree these days. Leaving IU-B with only 30-40k in debt will place you in an enviable position regardless of your employment outlook.

Nice to see sanity on TLS.

I have the letter, the IU-B language is odd. Sounds like just don't fail.

"you have been selected to receive one of this year's Law School Merit Scholarships. This scholarship will provide full non-resident tuition. The award is strictly merit-based and not dependent upon any showing of financial need. The award is renewable contingent upon your maintaining satisfactory progress at the end of your first year and each subsequent semester thereafter and not being disciplinarily sanctioned for professional or academic misconduct."

Yeah, it sounds pretty much guaranteed. For the last couple years IU have been "requiring" a 3.2 (on a 3.3 median curve). However, they have not actually been enforcing it in the great majority of cases -- so it makes sense that they would simply remove this stipulation. Perhaps they finally realize that top law schools don't pull these types of shenanigans and since they fashion themselves a top law school they should just guarantee the scholarships (as opposed to BLS/Cardozo).

You go to IU, Bankhead?

They are certainly buying off classes to bring up their admission numbers for News&Review. Came into money or something, as they are quickly becoming the UC-Irvine of the midwest. My numbers are hardly exceptional and yet I got the full-ride offer.

[Bankhead]

"Remain in good standing" usually means "don't fail."

If that is the case in this situation I am having a hard time understanding why this question is so tough. Despite the relative prestige of each school, the fact is you have a guaranteed full ride from a top 20 (yes theyve only been there for a short while) school. IMO barring admits from a t5 or maybe a t10 you go for the money. Jobs are hard to come by regardless of what name is on your degree these days. Leaving IU-B with only 30-40k in debt will place you in an enviable position regardless of your employment outlook.

Nice to see sanity on TLS.

I have the letter, the IU-B language is odd. Sounds like just don't fail.

"you have been selected to receive one of this year's Law School Merit Scholarships. This scholarship will provide full non-resident tuition. The award is strictly merit-based and not dependent upon any showing of financial need. The award is renewable contingent upon your maintaining satisfactory progress at the end of your first year and each subsequent semester thereafter and not being disciplinarily sanctioned for professional or academic misconduct."

Yeah, it sounds pretty much guaranteed. For the last couple years IU have been "requiring" a 3.2 (on a 3.3 median curve). However, they have not actually been enforcing it in the great majority of cases -- so it makes sense that they would simply remove this stipulation. Perhaps they finally realize that top law schools don't pull these types of shenanigans and since they fashion themselves a top law school they should just guarantee the scholarships (as opposed to BLS/Cardozo).

You go to IU, Bankhead?

They are certainly buying off classes to bring up their admission numbers for News&Review. Came into money or something, as they are quickly becoming the UC-Irvine of the midwest. My numbers are hardly exception and yet I got the full-ride offer.

Yep, I'm a current 1L. If you have any questions, feel free to ask (either here or on the IU 1L's taking questions thread).

IU received a large grant from a guy named Michael Maurer, whom they renamed the school after. I believe that is where they are getting the money to fund these gigantic scholarship offers. It sounds like they are really going at it full force this year, even more so than last.