Practice in CA: Harvard or Stanford?

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postitnotes
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Re: Practice in CA: Harvard or Stanford?

Postby postitnotes » Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:21 pm

Harvard's law school is much older and is more established. There is also a wider alumni network. I wouldn't be surprised if current attorneys had a better idea of Harvard. This isn't saying much, but one Californian law student asked me if Stanford's law school were ranked top 5...I think Harvard still "sounds" better in California. Either way you are going to be fine, but Harvard still sounds more impressive to a lot of people, including older attorneys.

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sayan
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Re: Practice in CA: Harvard or Stanford?

Postby sayan » Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:16 pm

sfdreaming09 wrote:Thanks again for the responses.

She’s kind of leaning toward Harvard right now because she thinks that SF employment prospects coming out of Harvard would be just as good, if not better, than that coming out of Stanford, and because, although she wouldn’t admit it, of Harvard’s reputation (among laypeople).

Based on all the research that I’ve personally done, it seems like going to Stanford would probably be the marginally better choice, but she doesn’t seem to be convinced.

Anybody else have any opinion/info?


I'm just curious, but what evidence do you have that shows this?

Anecdotal observation...?

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crackberry
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Re: Practice in CA: Harvard or Stanford?

Postby crackberry » Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:59 pm

kurama20 wrote:It's funny I've heard multiple lawyers/people in the legal field say this, but on TLS everyone says either "go to Stanford" or "they are the same". I wonder what's causing that. To make matters worse, in your situation these are lawyers in California saying this.

That's a two-way street. I've had both attorneys and diplomats tell me that Stanford and Yale are both superior legal educations to Harvard. That said, they also say that if you distinguish yourself at Harvard, it's the most powerful tool in the business. But "distinguishing" oneself in a class of ~550 is pretty difficult.

sfdreaming09
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Re: Practice in CA: Harvard or Stanford?

Postby sfdreaming09 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:21 pm

Interesting link that seems to support the idea that Harvard does at least as well as Stanford even in CA:

--LinkRemoved--

It shows that even among San Francisco firms (the closest big market to Stanford…I don’t really count Palo Alto/Silicon Valley), it’s virtually an even split between H and S. 26 SF firms do OCI at H, 29 at S (these numbers include only the firms with 500+ attorneys).

If you broaden the search and look at ALL 500+ CA firms, it shows that 113 do OCI at H, 120 at S.

I know this is only one piece of data, but the way I interpret this info, it seems like even CA firms prefer H grads to S grads. The reason I say that is because even though they have to travel all the way to the other side of the country to recruit at H, but only a few miles to recruit at S, CA firms still do OCI at both schools in virtually equal numbers.

Any thoughts?

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crackberry
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Re: Practice in CA: Harvard or Stanford?

Postby crackberry » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:24 pm

sfdreaming09 wrote:Interesting link that seems to support the idea that Harvard does at least as well as Stanford even in CA:

--LinkRemoved--

It shows that even among San Francisco firms (the closest big market to Stanford…I don’t really count Palo Alto/Silicon Valley), it’s virtually an even split between H and S. 26 SF firms do OCI at H, 29 at S (these numbers include only the firms with 500+ attorneys).

If you broaden the search and look at ALL 500+ CA firms, it shows that 113 do OCI at H, 120 at S.

I know this is only one piece of data, but the way I interpret this info, it seems like even CA firms prefer H grads to S grads. The reason I say that is because even though they have to travel all the way to the other side of the country to recruit at H, but only a few miles to recruit at S, CA firms still do OCI at both schools in virtually equal numbers.

Any thoughts?

Well, of course. It's Harvard. I'm not sure that alone proves anything. I think we can agree that BOTH Harvard and Stanford will place very well in all parts of California. I just happen to think the networking connections you would make during 3 years on the West Coast might be a somewhat valuable resource.

sfdreaming09
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Re: Practice in CA: Harvard or Stanford?

Postby sfdreaming09 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:46 pm

crackberry wrote:
sfdreaming09 wrote:Interesting link that seems to support the idea that Harvard does at least as well as Stanford even in CA:

--LinkRemoved--

It shows that even among San Francisco firms (the closest big market to Stanford…I don’t really count Palo Alto/Silicon Valley), it’s virtually an even split between H and S. 26 SF firms do OCI at H, 29 at S (these numbers include only the firms with 500+ attorneys).

If you broaden the search and look at ALL 500+ CA firms, it shows that 113 do OCI at H, 120 at S.

I know this is only one piece of data, but the way I interpret this info, it seems like even CA firms prefer H grads to S grads. The reason I say that is because even though they have to travel all the way to the other side of the country to recruit at H, but only a few miles to recruit at S, CA firms still do OCI at both schools in virtually equal numbers.

Any thoughts?

Well, of course. It's Harvard. I'm not sure that alone proves anything. I think we can agree that BOTH Harvard and Stanford will place very well in all parts of California. I just happen to think the networking connections you would make during 3 years on the West Coast might be a somewhat valuable resource.



I see what you’re saying, but I still do think that this data is important and shouldn’t be dismissed. For example, if we turn the tables and look at H’s closest big market (NY), there IS a relatively large difference in OCI between H and S. If you look at all 500+ NY firms, 73 do OCI at H vs. 46 at S. If you look at the DC market, the difference isn’t as stark, but significant nonetheless: 53 vs. 37.

So yeah I do think that the data seems to suggest that H at least = S in CA and is > S (again, not by much….they are both incredible schools) outside of CA.

sfdreaming09
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Re: Practice in CA: Harvard or Stanford?

Postby sfdreaming09 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:10 pm

Also found it interesting that 137 CA 500+ firms do OCI at Berkeley compared to the 120 that I mentioned earlier that go to Stanford...Dont know why this would be...

heyguys
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Re: Practice in CA: Harvard or Stanford?

Postby heyguys » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:16 pm

Haribo wrote:I think any tiny difference in employment prospect is outweighed by the much larger differences in "feel" of the two schools. She should visit and pick where she will be happier and get a better education.



I think this is credited. My inclination is that HLS would offer slightly better employment opportunities, but both are fantastic and (s)he should go wherever (s)he feels more comfortable.

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crackberry
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Re: Practice in CA: Harvard or Stanford?

Postby crackberry » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:20 pm

sfdreaming09 wrote:Also found it interesting that 137 CA 500+ firms do OCI at Berkeley compared to the 120 that I mentioned earlier that go to Stanford...Dont know why this would be...

The huge differences in class sizes between the two schools should also be noted. 120 CA firms doing OCI at Stanford; 175 grads/class at Stanford.

Also, I have a feeling Stanford grads self-select pretty regularly into the California market. It doesn't seem to make much sense to go to Stanford if you eventually want to end up on the East Coast (unless you get S but not H). I think that could explain the difference in OCI recruiting at the two schools by East Coast firms.

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kurama20
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Re: Practice in CA: Harvard or Stanford?

Postby kurama20 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:21 pm

sfdreaming09 wrote:I see what you’re saying, but I still do think that this data is important and shouldn’t be dismissed. For example, if we turn the tables and look at H’s closest big market (NY), there IS a relatively large difference in OCI between H and S. If you look at all 500+ NY firms, 73 do OCI at H vs. 46 at S. If you look at the DC market, the difference isn’t as stark, but significant nonetheless: 53 vs. 37.

So yeah I do think that the data seems to suggest that H at least = S in CA and is > S (again, not by much….they are both incredible schools) outside of CA.


Frankly as much as I like SLS it's Harvard Law School (and the difference isn't all self selection). Their is simply no school that out places Harvard anywhere except for arguably Yale. Harvard's placement is just phenomenal. The school's history and it's alumni network is such that it is very well represented in every avenue of the legal field,and it's grads have so much influence. You can see this is things like the people it has put on SCOTUS, to it's firm representation (in all types of firms--NYC biglaw, elite DC firms, and Cali boutiques) , and it's incredible government placement. Hell even it's non law placement is unreal.

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The Brainalist
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Re: Practice in CA: Harvard or Stanford?

Postby The Brainalist » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:02 pm

sfdreaming09 wrote:Interesting link that seems to support the idea that Harvard does at least as well as Stanford even in CA:

--LinkRemoved--

It shows that even among San Francisco firms (the closest big market to Stanford…I don’t really count Palo Alto/Silicon Valley), it’s virtually an even split between H and S. 26 SF firms do OCI at H, 29 at S (these numbers include only the firms with 500+ attorneys).

If you broaden the search and look at ALL 500+ CA firms, it shows that 113 do OCI at H, 120 at S.

I know this is only one piece of data, but the way I interpret this info, it seems like even CA firms prefer H grads to S grads. The reason I say that is because even though they have to travel all the way to the other side of the country to recruit at H, but only a few miles to recruit at S, CA firms still do OCI at both schools in virtually equal numbers.

Any thoughts?


That is a fun link. Thanks. I'm not sure how to weigh it all given the differences in class size, etc. Part of it has to be that there is likely an upper limit on how many firms can come to an OCI. I mean, there is only going to be so much space, and so much time, and so many students. Stanford could probably find more than 120 CA firms, but it wants to keep some space open for NY, Texas, Chicago, DC, etc.

Also, when you look at the firm names, they are a lot of national ones that interview at the same schools. And there is a question about the effect of class size. One school with the same class size - UChicago - has 90 firms according to that link from CA. Odds are, these 90 firms all interview OCI at Stanford and Harvard. There are 30 additional firms at stanford than Chicago, which is a good indication of the home-team advantage it has, especially since the are both the same class size. On the other hand, you have to wonder how much this 25% difference in firm attendance matters when Stanford probably has 25% more people wanting to work in CA, at minimum.

This does present one interesting question, though. With about 180 students, there are certainly less than 1/2 trying to work in CA from UChicago. If you imagine 1/3, 60 students trying to go to california applying to 90 CA firms, are those odds better than berkeley's where 200 of the 280 students are applying to 200 CA firms? How much better off are stanford students trying to land in california if 100 of them are applying to 120 CA firms?

I guess, the question is whether you look at the ratio or the total number of firms as the best indicator. Given that Stanford would seem to clearly beat Berk in any contest, it would seem that you want to go to the school with the most firms, and the least students applying to them. But then Chicago and Stanford would be roughly even par, while Berkeley looks pretty bad. That isn't totally counter-intuitive, but you'd think Berkeley would be the clear winner vs. Chicago in Cali.

legends159
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Re: Practice in CA: Harvard or Stanford?

Postby legends159 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:18 pm

At the end of the day if you're at HYSC (and likely also CN) firms will care more about your personality and your grades than what your degree says. Clients all know HYSC and they all respect HYSC and firms know that HYSC grads are all intelligent and hardworking. No one will think, oh you went to HLS you must have been rejected by YSC. Conversely no one will think, oh you went to SLS you must have been rejected by HYC.

If your friend is torn about which to go to tell her to visit the school, pick a random kid who goes to the school and pose this question to them.

Harvard is a fantastic school and you'll find many students there who picked it over SLS. But many of my classmates also picked SLS over HLS and they don't seem to have regret the decision at all.

If your friend is from CA though I would argue that maybe s/he should go to Harvard in order to broaden the networks, especially when she looks for 1L employment.

sfdreaming09
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Re: Practice in CA: Harvard or Stanford?

Postby sfdreaming09 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:30 pm

Another thing to consider: given how everybody talks about how you’re competing with your fellow classmates for jobs (hence why it is supposedly easier to get a job if you’re at a smaller school), wouldn’t it therefore be easier to get a job in CA (and the Bay Area in particular) coming out of Harvard than if you were coming out of Stanford (given the fact that the majority of H students intend on staying on the East Coast after graduation whereas the majority of S students [or at least a greater proportion than at H] presumably intend on staying in CA)?

fortissimo
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Re: Practice in CA: Harvard or Stanford?

Postby fortissimo » Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:48 pm

sfdreaming09 wrote:Also found it interesting that 137 CA 500+ firms do OCI at Berkeley compared to the 120 that I mentioned earlier that go to Stanford...Dont know why this would be...
Don't know how old/wrong your data is, but this past OCI, Berkeley supposedly only had fewer than 200 offices total at OCI for a class of almost 300, whereas supposedly Stanford had almost 300 offices for a much smaller class size. I know people on Boalt's California law review with no summer 2L jobs, while Stanford students are much safer ite.




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