How do you feel about Minnesota or Wisconsin?

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nycparalegal
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How do you feel about Minnesota or Wisconsin?

Postby nycparalegal » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:52 pm

I live in NYC, and I will most likely be going to either UCONN or Brooklyn (As i'm probably not going to get into my reach schools), but I keep reading about both Minnesota and Wisconsin, and I find them academically appealing.

I plan to go JAG, and then end up back in New York.

Now I know this sounds stupid since both schools are only regional law schools, and I plan to be on the East Coast.

What do other people think about these schools?

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Tanicius
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Re: How do you feel about Minnesota or Wisconsin?

Postby Tanicius » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:58 pm

nycparalegal wrote:I live in NYC, and I will most likely be going to either UCONN or Brooklyn (As i'm probably not going to get into my reach schools), but I keep reading about both Minnesota and Wisconsin, and I find them academically appealing.

I plan to go JAG, and then end up back in New York.

Now I know this sounds stupid since both schools are only regional law schools, and I plan to be on the East Coast.

What do other people think about these schools?


It's definitely not impossible to go to UMN and end up on the East Coast. I have an older college friend who's doing exactly that. The UMN is a Top 20 law school, and it is highly respected for its academics. I think you'll be fine if JAG is what you want to do, especially since JAG goes much deeper beyond the T14 than most other prestigious jobs.

BobDole34
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Re: How do you feel about Minnesota or Wisconsin?

Postby BobDole34 » Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:09 pm

Yeah sure you can go to Minnesota or Wisconsin and end up on the East Coast, but it makes utterly no sense. Given what appears to be your likely stats (noting your reaches extend beyond UConn/BLS) you will barely be a median student based on LSAT/GPA at either UM or UW. You'd need to be at the top of your class for large firm work on the East Coast from either. Might be easier to network into DC or try for some public interest work on the coasts but UM and UW are still primarily midwestern market schools. They are both better than UConn/BLS, but regionally limiting for most students.

02122015
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.

Postby 02122015 » Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:09 pm

.
Last edited by 02122015 on Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

interestedbyestander
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Re: How do you feel about Minnesota or Wisconsin?

Postby interestedbyestander » Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:16 pm

I feel ..... cold.

BobDole34
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Re: How do you feel about Minnesota or Wisconsin?

Postby BobDole34 » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:31 pm

MSPeast wrote:Minnesota law (20) ranks quite a bit above Wisconsin law (35). Wisconsin's main reputation is for its undergrad and some of its graduate programs. It's law school is fine but not as prestigious as the university as a whole. It's probably fine for the Chicago market, though, if you make that your goal the entire time. Not so much for the east coast.


In one word let me sum up my response: bull-fucking-shit

You're exactly the reason people should not be reading these forums. Your obsessive clinging to the US News rankings is exactly the wrong thing a pre-law needs to see. There is NO DIFFERENCE outside of the top 6 in this economy, maybe top 14 in a good economy, for the vast majority of law students at schools ranked roughly 10-15 apart. A Minnesota student at the median is equally fucked compared to a Wisconsin student.

Let ALONE the idea that "20 v 35" adequately compares the prestige of the law schools. For both PEER and LAWYER rankings, Wisconsin and Minnesota are nearly indistinguishable: http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leit ... oners.html

NLJ250 survey? Same thing, maybe a 5% difference. Anecdotally, friends at Minnesota in the top 1/3 are having trouble finding jobs.

You're trying to get someone to make a 6 figure tuition/3 year of their life decision on MEASLY differences and should be ashamed of yourself.

Edit: in fact, you shouldn't be ashamed of yourself, I actually think you're the POSTER CHILD for why this website is HARMFUL for pre-laws. You're not even a law student, you're a fucking 0L pretending to have even the slightest clue about law firm placement or school perception. Unbelievable. I can't believe I'm actually angry over a law forum post.
Last edited by BobDole34 on Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lonagan
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Re: How do you feel about Minnesota or Wisconsin?

Postby Lonagan » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:34 pm

Man, if you had made that argument in 1996, I might have voted for you, Bob Dole! When I was in the ... seventh grade.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: How do you feel about Minnesota or Wisconsin?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:18 pm

Minnesota and Wisconsin really are just about equal as far as job prospects go. MN does better in Minneapolis, obviously, and Minneapolis is a larger legal market than Milwaukee; that is the extent of Minnesota's advantage. The rankings differences in this range just don't matter much. If you get in to both, and MN isn't considerably more expensive than Wisconsin, I'd probably pick MN for the access to a stronger "home market."

There is a fair amount of self-selection that goes on at both schools to stay in the home markets--particularly at Wisconsin, because of the diploma privilege. (Wisconsin grads don't have to take the Wisconsin bar, though there is a lawsuit in the 7th circuit challenging the rule.)

That said, as someone who was at the top of the class at Wisconsin after 1L, I still felt compelled to transfer to have better prospects in the Chicago market, but I'm in the "lost year." Wisconsin generally does "alright" in Chicago biglaw--i.e., top 20% or so has a legitimate shot. A few of my (former, I suppose) classmates will be working on the coasts, but most of them had extensive connections (not just family--ex., I know 3 people working in DC for their 2L SA. 2 of them worked on the Hill for several years between UG and LS, one of them has a family connection to a firm out there.) Wisconsin, even in a good economy, doesn't carry particularly well to either coast, though it has historically been a bit better for CA than NYC/DC (this may be entirely self-selection, though.)

Feel free to ask any questions you'd like about Wisconsin. I grew up in Madison, so I know the city well, and I can give you a pretty good idea of 1L life there.

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nixxers
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Re: How do you feel about Minnesota or Wisconsin?

Postby nixxers » Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:25 pm

interestedbyestander wrote:I feel ..... cold.


+1

all i have to say about minnesota is that the high here today in minneapolis is 8 degrees F. if thats appealing to you, then by all means...personally, i cant wait to leave :P

ArmyVet07
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Re: How do you feel about Minnesota or Wisconsin?

Postby ArmyVet07 » Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:26 pm

If you want to do JAG, going to a leading public school such as MN or WI would be fine. One point in WI's favor is the diploma privilege, which means no bar exam.

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Lonagan
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Re: How do you feel about Minnesota or Wisconsin?

Postby Lonagan » Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:24 am

jayzon wrote:
BobDole34 wrote:
MSPeast wrote:Minnesota law (20) ranks quite a bit above Wisconsin law (35). Wisconsin's main reputation is for its undergrad and some of its graduate programs. It's law school is fine but not as prestigious as the university as a whole. It's probably fine for the Chicago market, though, if you make that your goal the entire time. Not so much for the east coast.


In one word let me sum up my response: bull-fucking-shit

You're exactly the reason people should not be reading these forums. Your obsessive clinging to the US News rankings is exactly the wrong thing a pre-law needs to see. There is NO DIFFERENCE outside of the top 6 in this economy, maybe top 14 in a good economy, for the vast majority of law students at schools ranked roughly 10-15 apart. A Minnesota student at the median is equally fucked compared to a Wisconsin student.

Let ALONE the idea that "20 v 35" adequately compares the prestige of the law schools. For both PEER and LAWYER rankings, Wisconsin and Minnesota are nearly indistinguishable: http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leit ... oners.html

NLJ250 survey? Same thing, maybe a 5% difference. Anecdotally, friends at Minnesota in the top 1/3 are having trouble finding jobs.

You're trying to get someone to make a 6 figure tuition/3 year of their life decision on MEASLY differences and should be ashamed of yourself.

Edit: in fact, you shouldn't be ashamed of yourself, I actually think you're the POSTER CHILD for why this website is HARMFUL for pre-laws. You're not even a law student, you're a fucking 0L pretending to have even the slightest clue about law firm placement or school perception. Unbelievable. I can't believe I'm actually angry over a law forum post.


Although Bob Dole drastically overstates his case (NO DIFFERENCE outside of the T6! Sorry, UVA students; should've taken that scholarship from Thomas Jefferson!) he does make a great point: for many, many, many of the top state schools, the rankings mean precisely dick.

OP, as ArmyVet notes above, any top state school will treat you just fine for JAG. Check out the military law thread, where actual JAG attorneys answer questions. They would probably tell you that no school provides a significant advantage for JAG, but you should still aim for a good enough school to give you options, in case you change your mind.


In fairness, he says that schools ranked outside T-6, that are within 10-15 spots of each other on the rankings, should not be compared on the basis of rankings. I don't think he is suggesting that Minnesota = Duquesne, or Maine for that matter.

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superflush
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Re: How do you feel about Minnesota or Wisconsin?

Postby superflush » Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:53 am

ToTransferOrNot wrote:Minnesota and Wisconsin really are just about equal as far as job prospects go. MN does better in Minneapolis, obviously, and Minneapolis is a larger legal market than Milwaukee; that is the extent of Minnesota's advantage. The rankings differences in this range just don't matter much. If you get in to both, and MN isn't considerably more expensive than Wisconsin, I'd probably pick MN for the access to a stronger "home market."
...
Feel free to ask any questions you'd like about Wisconsin. I grew up in Madison, so I know the city well, and I can give you a pretty good idea of 1L life there.


But there are a large amount of UW grads that get work in Madison, right?
Is Madison more desirable to work in than Milwaukee for a lot of people?

ScaredWorkedBored
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Re: How do you feel about Minnesota or Wisconsin?

Postby ScaredWorkedBored » Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:42 pm

From what I remember, Wisconsin actually outplaces Minnesota veeery slightly (as in irrelevent) in NLJ 250 firms in normal recruiting years.

EDIT: Here it is. This is class of 2005, so it approximates a normal economy. You really can't use the bubble classes or the bust classes of the last five years for very much.

http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf

In the real world, the differences in the size of the red bar don't matter unless it's at least one and probably two full 10% brackets. Otherwise you're just falling victim to "90% believe they are top 10%" disease.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: How do you feel about Minnesota or Wisconsin?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:13 pm

superflush wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:Minnesota and Wisconsin really are just about equal as far as job prospects go. MN does better in Minneapolis, obviously, and Minneapolis is a larger legal market than Milwaukee; that is the extent of Minnesota's advantage. The rankings differences in this range just don't matter much. If you get in to both, and MN isn't considerably more expensive than Wisconsin, I'd probably pick MN for the access to a stronger "home market."
...
Feel free to ask any questions you'd like about Wisconsin. I grew up in Madison, so I know the city well, and I can give you a pretty good idea of 1L life there.


But there are a large amount of UW grads that get work in Madison, right?
Is Madison more desirable to work in than Milwaukee for a lot of people?


Madison is a very, very, very small legal market. Wisconsin's OCS strongly cautions people against assuming they're going to find a Madison gig--even people who were in my situation.

For what it's worth, when I applied to a few of the regional off-campus job fairs, most firms did have a more severe GPA cutoff for Wisconsin kids than they had for MN kids--if I remember, it was generally 10% Wisconsin, 15-20% MN.

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xanderdellus
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Re: How do you feel about Minnesota or Wisconsin?

Postby xanderdellus » Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:45 pm

I am in MN and hoping for WI. Those are the two schools I plan to be weighing. MN knocks everybody else off for me, unless some serious $$$ comes into play.

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The Zeppelin
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Re: How do you feel about Minnesota or Wisconsin?

Postby The Zeppelin » Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:54 pm

I was really interested in MN until I recently watched the weather channel.

No joke.

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superflush
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Re: How do you feel about Minnesota or Wisconsin?

Postby superflush » Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:15 am

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
superflush wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:Minnesota and Wisconsin really are just about equal as far as job prospects go. MN does better in Minneapolis, obviously, and Minneapolis is a larger legal market than Milwaukee; that is the extent of Minnesota's advantage. The rankings differences in this range just don't matter much. If you get in to both, and MN isn't considerably more expensive than Wisconsin, I'd probably pick MN for the access to a stronger "home market."
...
Feel free to ask any questions you'd like about Wisconsin. I grew up in Madison, so I know the city well, and I can give you a pretty good idea of 1L life there.


But there are a large amount of UW grads that get work in Madison, right?
Is Madison more desirable to work in than Milwaukee for a lot of people?


Madison is a very, very, very small legal market. Wisconsin's OCS strongly cautions people against assuming they're going to find a Madison gig--even people who were in my situation.

For what it's worth, when I applied to a few of the regional off-campus job fairs, most firms did have a more severe GPA cutoff for Wisconsin kids than they had for MN kids--if I remember, it was generally 10% Wisconsin, 15-20% MN.


It looks like the legal market in Madison is 71% of the size of the legal market in Milwaukee. Doesn't sound like it is much smaller.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: How do you feel about Minnesota or Wisconsin?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:24 am

superflush wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:
superflush wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:Minnesota and Wisconsin really are just about equal as far as job prospects go. MN does better in Minneapolis, obviously, and Minneapolis is a larger legal market than Milwaukee; that is the extent of Minnesota's advantage. The rankings differences in this range just don't matter much. If you get in to both, and MN isn't considerably more expensive than Wisconsin, I'd probably pick MN for the access to a stronger "home market."
...
Feel free to ask any questions you'd like about Wisconsin. I grew up in Madison, so I know the city well, and I can give you a pretty good idea of 1L life there.


But there are a large amount of UW grads that get work in Madison, right?
Is Madison more desirable to work in than Milwaukee for a lot of people?


Madison is a very, very, very small legal market. Wisconsin's OCS strongly cautions people against assuming they're going to find a Madison gig--even people who were in my situation.

For what it's worth, when I applied to a few of the regional off-campus job fairs, most firms did have a more severe GPA cutoff for Wisconsin kids than they had for MN kids--if I remember, it was generally 10% Wisconsin, 15-20% MN.


It looks like the legal market in Madison is 71% of the size of the legal market in Milwaukee. Doesn't sound like it is much smaller.


Not sure where you're getting that number, but regardless of where you're getting it from, I'm willing to trust Wisconsin's OCS, and my personal experience (as well as that of many, many people I know.) It could be that Madison's market has a lower turnover rate, and, as a result, it is harder to break in to. Either way, in the best of years, it can be ver, very difficult for a Wisconsin grad to find a job in Madison. That is simply a fact.

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superflush
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Re: How do you feel about Minnesota or Wisconsin?

Postby superflush » Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:49 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
superflush wrote:It looks like the legal market in Madison is 71% of the size of the legal market in Milwaukee. Doesn't sound like it is much smaller.


Not sure where you're getting that number, but regardless of where you're getting it from, I'm willing to trust Wisconsin's OCS, and my personal experience (as well as that of many, many people I know.) It could be that Madison's market has a lower turnover rate, and, as a result, it is harder to break in to. Either way, in the best of years, it can be ver, very difficult for a Wisconsin grad to find a job in Madison. That is simply a fact.


viewtopic.php?f=2&t=71430

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: How do you feel about Minnesota or Wisconsin?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:22 pm

superflush wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:
superflush wrote:It looks like the legal market in Madison is 71% of the size of the legal market in Milwaukee. Doesn't sound like it is much smaller.


Not sure where you're getting that number, but regardless of where you're getting it from, I'm willing to trust Wisconsin's OCS, and my personal experience (as well as that of many, many people I know.) It could be that Madison's market has a lower turnover rate, and, as a result, it is harder to break in to. Either way, in the best of years, it can be ver, very difficult for a Wisconsin grad to find a job in Madison. That is simply a fact.


viewtopic.php?f=2&t=71430


You need to keep in mind that Madison is the state capitol. Just like DC, there are many, many people listed as "lawyers" in Madison whose roles are legislative. I'm talking about firm jobs, and I think most people are looking at the same issue.

articulably suspect
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Re: How do you feel about Minnesota or Wisconsin?

Postby articulably suspect » Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:49 pm

nycparalegal wrote:I plan to go JAG, and then end up back in New York.

Now I know this sounds stupid since both schools are only regional law schools, and I plan to be on the East Coast


If your plan works out, you will get at least 4 years of exposure to a variety of legal matters and a lot of trial experience. That experience and how it relates to the job you apply for back east will matter much more than where you went to law school.

Law school prestige matters far less in JAG hiring. They look at the applicant as a whole, not just school rank. A history of public service is something they really like, as well as Moot Court and trial advocacy. One JAG I spoke with said JAG's are pretty much scattered all across the prestige spectrum, with no real consistency(ie most went to T25.) Where he's stationed there's a guy from Harvard and a person from a TTTT.

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Space_Cowboy
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Re: How do you feel about Minnesota or Wisconsin?

Postby Space_Cowboy » Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:58 pm

BobDole34 wrote:
MSPeast wrote:Minnesota law (20) ranks quite a bit above Wisconsin law (35). Wisconsin's main reputation is for its undergrad and some of its graduate programs. It's law school is fine but not as prestigious as the university as a whole. It's probably fine for the Chicago market, though, if you make that your goal the entire time. Not so much for the east coast.


In one word let me sum up my response: bull-fucking-shit

You're exactly the reason people should not be reading these forums. Your obsessive clinging to the US News rankings is exactly the wrong thing a pre-law needs to see. There is NO DIFFERENCE outside of the top 6 in this economy, maybe top 14 in a good economy, for the vast majority of law students at schools ranked roughly 10-15 apart. A Minnesota student at the median is equally fucked compared to a Wisconsin student.

Let ALONE the idea that "20 v 35" adequately compares the prestige of the law schools. For both PEER and LAWYER rankings, Wisconsin and Minnesota are nearly indistinguishable: http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leit ... oners.html

NLJ250 survey? Same thing, maybe a 5% difference. Anecdotally, friends at Minnesota in the top 1/3 are having trouble finding jobs.

You're trying to get someone to make a 6 figure tuition/3 year of their life decision on MEASLY differences and should be ashamed of yourself.

Edit: in fact, you shouldn't be ashamed of yourself, I actually think you're the POSTER CHILD for why this website is HARMFUL for pre-laws. You're not even a law student, you're a fucking 0L pretending to have even the slightest clue about law firm placement or school perception. Unbelievable. I can't believe I'm actually angry over a law forum post.


+1. Except the last part. Try not to beat everyone with the stupid stick just because MSPeast is a complete fucking idiot.

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daddymike
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Re: How do you feel about Minnesota or Wisconsin?

Postby daddymike » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:39 pm

nycparalegal wrote:I live in NYC, and I will most likely be going to either UCONN or Brooklyn (As i'm probably not going to get into my reach schools), but I keep reading about both Minnesota and Wisconsin, and I find them academically appealing.

I plan to go JAG, and then end up back in New York.

Now I know this sounds stupid since both schools are only regional law schools, and I plan to be on the East Coast.

What do other people think about these schools?




It's possible, I guess.

"Allan A. Ryan
Director of Intellectual Property, Harvard Business School Publishing

Allan A. Ryan has been a lawyer at Harvard since 1985, first in the Office of General Counsel, and as director of intellectual property at Harvard Business School Publishing since 2001. He graduated from Dartmouth College and the University of Minnesota Law School magna cum laude, and was a law clerk for Justice Byron R. White of the Supreme Court of the United States. He served in the US Department of Justice as assistant to the solicitor general, arguing eight cases before the Supreme Court, and as director of the office of special investigations in the criminal division. He is adjunct professor of law at Boston College Law School, where he teaches in the field of human rights and international law. He is a member of the American Bar Association's Committee on the First Amendment and Media Litigation, and a contributing writer to the Citizen Media Law Project Legal Guide, a publication of Harvard Law School's Berkman Center for Internet and Society."

He is also a former Marine Corps JAG. I'm not sure why that's not listed in his bio, but I happen to know the guy so I know it's true.




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