Why does everyone want to work in a big market?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
pleasebehappy
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:22 pm

Why does everyone want to work in a big market?

Postby pleasebehappy » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:31 am

I have a question that may seem stupid, but I really don't understand.

Everyone on this site talks about NYC, LA, DC, Chicago, Boston, etc. as the big legal markets where "people make the most money" and where people need to work to pay off their debts from law school. I undertand that BigLaw starting salaries in these cities are around $160,000/year.

But if you worked in Miami, Houston, Atlanta, or another mid-range market making $140,000/year, wouldn't that actually be more disposable income takin into account that living costs are extremely high in NYC, DC, Cali, etc.?

So for money, wouldn't you actually want the highest paying firm in a secondary market? Maybe this reasoning is totally wrong. Please help me figure out why every law student seems to want to work in NYC or DC upon graduation and how this affects law school choice.

User avatar
englawyer
Posts: 1270
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:57 pm

Re: Why does everyone want to work in a big market?

Postby englawyer » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:35 am

for me personally, its a drive to work at the upper echelons of the profession. when big deals go down, major litigation happens, etc. companies don't go to Oklahoma they go to nyc.

for pure money, secondary market could make plenty of sense, although i am not sure if your chance of getting partner goes down or anything if you do that.

User avatar
Sauer Grapes
Posts: 1222
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:02 am

Re: Why does everyone want to work in a big market?

Postby Sauer Grapes » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:38 am

....
Last edited by Sauer Grapes on Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
thickfreakness
Posts: 1056
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:39 pm

Re: Why does everyone want to work in a big market?

Postby thickfreakness » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:39 am

+1

No interest in NYC, DC, Boston, etc. here.

User avatar
beesknees
Posts: 458
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:46 am

Re: Why does everyone want to work in a big market?

Postby beesknees » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:41 am

.
Last edited by beesknees on Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
thickfreakness
Posts: 1056
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:39 pm

Re: Why does everyone want to work in a big market?

Postby thickfreakness » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:44 am

beesknees wrote:Besides the appeal of city life (Miami and Atlanta do NOT qualify, IMO), I would agree with the above. The movers and shakers might want to be in the thick of things in major firms doing major transaction work.

From a purely practical standpoint, though, there are probably more plentiful jobs in a primary market vs a secondary market. I would speculate that while your second scenario of 140k in a secondary market would make more financial sense, that sort of opportunity is few and far between (even more so than the 160k in a large market).



There may be more total jobs in a primary market, but there's also likely a good bit more competition for those jobs, especially the top-notch ones, than there will be in the secondary markets. Since so many T14 grads gun for the big markets, if you have a T14 degree and aim for a secondary market you'll likely get a pretty darn good job since you're competing mainly against regional schools.

User avatar
beesknees
Posts: 458
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:46 am

Re: Why does everyone want to work in a big market?

Postby beesknees » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:54 am

.
Last edited by beesknees on Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Why does everyone want to work in a big market?

Postby 09042014 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:00 am

pleasebehappy wrote:I have a question that may seem stupid, but I really don't understand.

Everyone on this site talks about NYC, LA, DC, Chicago, Boston, etc. as the big legal markets where "people make the most money" and where people need to work to pay off their debts from law school. I undertand that BigLaw starting salaries in these cities are around $160,000/year.

But if you worked in Miami, Houston, Atlanta, or another mid-range market making $140,000/year, wouldn't that actually be more disposable income takin into account that living costs are extremely high in NYC, DC, Cali, etc.?

So for money, wouldn't you actually want the highest paying firm in a secondary market? Maybe this reasoning is totally wrong. Please help me figure out why every law student seems to want to work in NYC or DC upon graduation and how this affects law school choice.


Miami is more expensive than Chicago. In fact Chicago is probably the best deal from (NYC, LA, DC, Chi, Bost).

Houston is the really cheap one.

Also a lot of those small cities have much less opportunities for random people to just hop in. Houston firms might not hire a Wisconsinite who went to Duke.

linquest
Posts: 143
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:06 am

Re: Why does everyone want to work in a big market?

Postby linquest » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:01 am

Working in a bigger market also gives you more opportunities in terms of different practice specialties. (Ex. Denver might be a great place to work/live and your dollar would certainly stretch further, but it's not a hotbed for, say, maritime law.) I currently practice in a fairly small specialty in a secondary (or third tier?) market in the public sector, but if I wanted to transition to private practice, there's literally only one firm in the entire state that I would be able to work for. My goal is to eventually move on to a larger market (DC or Chicago) where there would be more job openings in my specialty or more opportunities in related niche specialties.

User avatar
thickfreakness
Posts: 1056
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:39 pm

Re: Why does everyone want to work in a big market?

Postby thickfreakness » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:04 am

beesknees wrote:
thickfreakness wrote:
beesknees wrote:Besides the appeal of city life (Miami and Atlanta do NOT qualify, IMO), I would agree with the above. The movers and shakers might want to be in the thick of things in major firms doing major transaction work.

From a purely practical standpoint, though, there are probably more plentiful jobs in a primary market vs a secondary market. I would speculate that while your second scenario of 140k in a secondary market would make more financial sense, that sort of opportunity is few and far between (even more so than the 160k in a large market).



There may be more total jobs in a primary market, but there's also likely a good bit more competition for those jobs, especially the top-notch ones, than there will be in the secondary markets. Since so many T14 grads gun for the big markets, if you have a T14 degree and aim for a secondary market you'll likely get a pretty darn good job since you're competing mainly against regional schools.


I would agree that there's increased competition in a primary market. But from what I suspect, there's ridiculous competition in almost any legal market just due to the high supply of job prospects. And then you got the crappy economy to boot.

I hope that a T14 will do better for me in a secondary market than the local state school in the same market, as that is probably what I will end up doing despite my prejudice against those cities, but I have my reservations.


I think attitude during the hiring process is likely important, as well. If you go for a secondary market from the outset, seek jobs and don't come off as "settling" for a job in that market because a bigger one was full, you may have a better shot of landing a good opportunity.

User avatar
Space_Cowboy
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:52 am

Re: Why does everyone want to work in a big market?

Postby Space_Cowboy » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:06 am

Why do lots of people live in the biggest cities?

User avatar
chadwick218
Posts: 1337
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:15 pm

Re: Why does everyone want to work in a big market?

Postby chadwick218 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:09 am

b/c 85% of the V100 calls either New York, DC, Chicago, LA, Philly, San Franscisco / Palo Alto, Houston, or Dallas home ... that's where the opportunities are ... I'm not becoming a lawyer to "change the world" ... I am becomming a lawyer to make a disgusting amount of money and change my own personal position in the world ...

User avatar
kurama20
Posts: 675
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 5:04 pm

Re: Why does everyone want to work in a big market?

Postby kurama20 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:10 am

pleasebehappy wrote:I have a question that may seem stupid, but I really don't understand.

Everyone on this site talks about NYC, LA, DC, Chicago, Boston, etc. as the big legal markets where "people make the most money" and where people need to work to pay off their debts from law school. I undertand that BigLaw starting salaries in these cities are around $160,000/year.

But if you worked in Miami, Houston, Atlanta, or another mid-range market making $140,000/year, wouldn't that actually be more disposable income takin into account that living costs are extremely high in NYC, DC, Cali, etc.?

So for money, wouldn't you actually want the highest paying firm in a secondary market? Maybe this reasoning is totally wrong. Please help me figure out why every law student seems to want to work in NYC or DC upon graduation and how this affects law school choice.



OP I posted a thread almost exactly like this one about a year ago. Here it is.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=59258

People on here have huge tunnel vision and they also have an ignorant TV fueled bias against the mid markets you mentioned; as most of them are in the south.

keg411
Posts: 5935
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:10 pm

Re: Why does everyone want to work in a big market?

Postby keg411 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:12 am

thickfreakness wrote:
beesknees wrote:Besides the appeal of city life (Miami and Atlanta do NOT qualify, IMO), I would agree with the above. The movers and shakers might want to be in the thick of things in major firms doing major transaction work.

From a purely practical standpoint, though, there are probably more plentiful jobs in a primary market vs a secondary market. I would speculate that while your second scenario of 140k in a secondary market would make more financial sense, that sort of opportunity is few and far between (even more so than the 160k in a large market).



There may be more total jobs in a primary market, but there's also likely a good bit more competition for those jobs, especially the top-notch ones, than there will be in the secondary markets. Since so many T14 grads gun for the big markets, if you have a T14 degree and aim for a secondary market you'll likely get a pretty darn good job since you're competing mainly against regional schools.


There have been some rumblings that T14-ers have been having some difficulty in secondary markets because they are viewed as a flight-risk ITE (i.e. if they could get New York, they would leave that market in a second). If you go to a top school and want a secondary market, make sure to work there during both summers, otherwise employers may think you do not want to stay long term and will bolt when NYC comes calling.

BigLaw in secondary markets also tends to be on a much different scale than in large markets, so keep that in mind as well. There just aren't the same number of position to be had and SA's are hired minimally (only a couple a summer and they usually hire 1-2 local kids out of 3 total positions; not many which is why most T2's and lower T1's have a very low BigLaw %). It also depends on what secondary market you are aiming for. Boston will be different from Seattle, which is different from Miami, which is different from Denver, Nashville, Atlanta, Charlotte.... (etc., etc., etc.). Some legal markets are larger than other markets; some firms prefer local graduates more than others; some markets are doing worse/better in this economy, etc.

If you have your heart set on BigLaw, you want the big markets. And if you want the big markets, you want T14. Although ITE, if you just want a job period, you probably want T14 anyway....

Note: I have crappy numbers and am not getting close to T14. But I'm aware of my fate.
Last edited by keg411 on Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
beesknees
Posts: 458
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:46 am

Re: Why does everyone want to work in a big market?

Postby beesknees » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:12 am

.
Last edited by beesknees on Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
kurama20
Posts: 675
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 5:04 pm

Re: Why does everyone want to work in a big market?

Postby kurama20 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:16 am

chadwick218 wrote:b/c 85% of the V100 calls either New York, DC, Chicago, LA, Philly, San Franscisco / Palo Alto, Houston, or Dallas home ... that's where the opportunities are ... I'm not becoming a lawyer to "change the world" ... I am becoming a lawyer to make a disgusting amount of money and change my own personal position in the world ...



In many ways the V100 is a pretty bad way to go about working at a firm that will pay you a lot of money. That's because most of those firms have near impossible partnership odds (the way you make a "disgusting amount of money") Whereas the litigation boutiques where you make huge amounts of money (Boies and Susman Godfrey for example) are not even on the v100. These firms also tend to be much more selective than the very NYC biased V100 list. Susman is in Texas and Boies has a lot of offices in Florida (though they are in DC, Cali, and NY as well).

Even associates at Susman and Boies pull in 350K+ a year on a regular basis (and keep in mind this is locations where cost of living is much lower than NYC, so they actually enjoy it). You have to make close to 1 million dollars in NYC to live like someone who is making about 300K in Atlanta. Bondurant in Atlanta is very very selective, but the have high partnership odds. Their associates often pull in 200K+ after bonuses. Do you know what that kind of money does for you in Atlanta? Honestly, unless you are a partner at a law firm/Ibank/consulting firm you aren't going to be living that large in NYC working in those industries. Basically, if you want to live large in NYC you better be a CEO , an athlete, an actor, or a multi platinum music artist.

User avatar
chadwick218
Posts: 1337
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:15 pm

Re: Why does everyone want to work in a big market?

Postby chadwick218 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:20 am

kurama20 wrote:In many ways the V100 is a pretty bad way to go about working at a firm that will pay you a lot of money. That's because most of those firms have near impossible partnership odds (the way you make a "disgusting amount of money") Whereas the litigation boutiques where you make huge amounts of money (Boies and Susman Godfrey for example) are not even on the v100. These firms also tend to be much more selective than the very NYC biased V100 list. Susman is in Texas and Boies has a lot of offices in Florida (though they are in DC, Cali, and NY as well).

Even associates at Susman and Boies pull in 350K+ a year on a regular basis (and keep in mind this is locations where cost of living is much lower than NYC, so they actually enjoy it). You have to make close to 1 million dollars in NYC to live like someone who is making about 300K in Atlanta. Bondurant in Atlanta is very very selective, but the have high partnership odds. Their associates often pull in 200K+ after bonuses. Do you know what that kind of money does for you in Atlanta? Honestly, unless you are a partner at a law firm/Ibank/consulting firm you aren't going to be living that large in NYC working in those industries. Basically, if you want to live large in NYC you better be a CEO , an athlete, an actor, or a multi platinum music artist.


Agreed! It was just easier for me to focus on the V100 than discuss the boutiques. The boutiques are also often more difficult to crack than the V100 (minus perhaps the V5). I have a friend at Susman would make partner after 4 years after winning a couple of high-profile cases!

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Why does everyone want to work in a big market?

Postby 09042014 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:38 am

kurama20 wrote:
chadwick218 wrote:b/c 85% of the V100 calls either New York, DC, Chicago, LA, Philly, San Franscisco / Palo Alto, Houston, or Dallas home ... that's where the opportunities are ... I'm not becoming a lawyer to "change the world" ... I am becoming a lawyer to make a disgusting amount of money and change my own personal position in the world ...



In many ways the V100 is a pretty bad way to go about working at a firm that will pay you a lot of money. That's because most of those firms have near impossible partnership odds (the way you make a "disgusting amount of money") Whereas the litigation boutiques where you make huge amounts of money (Boies and Susman Godfrey for example) are not even on the v100. These firms also tend to be much more selective than the very NYC biased V100 list. Susman is in Texas and Boies has a lot of offices in Florida (though they are in DC, Cali, and NY as well).

Even associates at Susman and Boies pull in 350K+ a year on a regular basis (and keep in mind this is locations where cost of living is much lower than NYC, so they actually enjoy it). You have to make close to 1 million dollars in NYC to live like someone who is making about 300K in Atlanta. Bondurant in Atlanta is very very selective, but the have high partnership odds. Their associates often pull in 200K+ after bonuses. Do you know what that kind of money does for you in Atlanta? Honestly, unless you are a partner at a law firm/Ibank/consulting firm you aren't going to be living that large in NYC working in those industries. Basically, if you want to live large in NYC you better be a CEO , an athlete, an actor, or a multi platinum music artist.


I don't believe that at all.

User avatar
kurama20
Posts: 675
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 5:04 pm

Re: Why does everyone want to work in a big market?

Postby kurama20 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:48 am

Desert Fox wrote:
kurama20 wrote:
chadwick218 wrote:b/c 85% of the V100 calls either New York, DC, Chicago, LA, Philly, San Franscisco / Palo Alto, Houston, or Dallas home ... that's where the opportunities are ... I'm not becoming a lawyer to "change the world" ... I am becoming a lawyer to make a disgusting amount of money and change my own personal position in the world ...



In many ways the V100 is a pretty bad way to go about working at a firm that will pay you a lot of money. That's because most of those firms have near impossible partnership odds (the way you make a "disgusting amount of money") Whereas the litigation boutiques where you make huge amounts of money (Boies and Susman Godfrey for example) are not even on the v100. These firms also tend to be much more selective than the very NYC biased V100 list. Susman is in Texas and Boies has a lot of offices in Florida (though they are in DC, Cali, and NY as well).

Even associates at Susman and Boies pull in 350K+ a year on a regular basis (and keep in mind this is locations where cost of living is much lower than NYC, so they actually enjoy it). You have to make close to 1 million dollars in NYC to live like someone who is making about 300K in Atlanta. Bondurant in Atlanta is very very selective, but the have high partnership odds. Their associates often pull in 200K+ after bonuses. Do you know what that kind of money does for you in Atlanta? Honestly, unless you are a partner at a law firm/Ibank/consulting firm you aren't going to be living that large in NYC working in those industries. Basically, if you want to live large in NYC you better be a CEO , an athlete, an actor, or a multi platinum music artist.


I don't believe that at all.



I hope that's sarcasm. Because if it's not you haven't been doing enough research on the legal field---you're probably relying too much on TLS.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Why does everyone want to work in a big market?

Postby 09042014 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:50 am

kurama20 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
kurama20 wrote:
chadwick218 wrote:b/c 85% of the V100 calls either New York, DC, Chicago, LA, Philly, San Franscisco / Palo Alto, Houston, or Dallas home ... that's where the opportunities are ... I'm not becoming a lawyer to "change the world" ... I am becoming a lawyer to make a disgusting amount of money and change my own personal position in the world ...



In many ways the V100 is a pretty bad way to go about working at a firm that will pay you a lot of money. That's because most of those firms have near impossible partnership odds (the way you make a "disgusting amount of money") Whereas the litigation boutiques where you make huge amounts of money (Boies and Susman Godfrey for example) are not even on the v100. These firms also tend to be much more selective than the very NYC biased V100 list. Susman is in Texas and Boies has a lot of offices in Florida (though they are in DC, Cali, and NY as well).

Even associates at Susman and Boies pull in 350K+ a year on a regular basis (and keep in mind this is locations where cost of living is much lower than NYC, so they actually enjoy it). You have to make close to 1 million dollars in NYC to live like someone who is making about 300K in Atlanta. Bondurant in Atlanta is very very selective, but the have high partnership odds. Their associates often pull in 200K+ after bonuses. Do you know what that kind of money does for you in Atlanta? Honestly, unless you are a partner at a law firm/Ibank/consulting firm you aren't going to be living that large in NYC working in those industries. Basically, if you want to live large in NYC you better be a CEO , an athlete, an actor, or a multi platinum music artist.


I don't believe that at all.



I hope that's sarcasm. Because if it's not you haven't been doing enough research on the legal field---you're probably relying too much on TLS.


I mean I don't believe the bolded part about 300K in Atlanta = 1 million in NYC. That's bullshit.

I have no problem with the rest.

EDIT: I didn't consider taxes especially the 40% top marginal rate. In which case its actually probably a lot closer than I thought.
Last edited by 09042014 on Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
rayiner
Posts: 6184
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: Why does everyone want to work in a big market?

Postby rayiner » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:50 am

I don't know about Kurama's exact numbers, but being a yuppie in Atlanta is ridiculously awesome. My roommate and I paid $800 each for a 1100 sqft 2 bedroom in a new building in a nice part of town. I pay over $1300 now for a 600 sqft convertible in Chicago, and while it's nice it's definitely a step down. I miss my giant bathroom*, marble countertops, washer-dryer hookup, etc.

*) With his and hers' sinks, not that I had much occasion to take advantage...

bahama
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:23 pm

Re: Why does everyone want to work in a big market?

Postby bahama » Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:02 am

Desert Fox wrote:
I mean I don't believe the bolded part about 300K in Atlanta = 1 million in NYC. That's bullshit.

I have no problem with the rest.


It may be a bit of exageration, but not much. $1 million plus for a one bedroom is not unusual in Manhattan. A big house in a nice suburb is a few hundred thousand in Atlanta, but a few million in NY. Taxes in NY are much higher. In NY you will pay an obscene amount for parking and insurance...

I know people who were making over 100k in NYC and still living in a small apt with roommates and no car. 100k in Atlanta is solidly upper middle class.

User avatar
Space_Cowboy
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:52 am

Re: Why does everyone want to work in a big market?

Postby Space_Cowboy » Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:03 am

kurama20 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
kurama20 wrote:
chadwick218 wrote:b/c 85% of the V100 calls either New York, DC, Chicago, LA, Philly, San Franscisco / Palo Alto, Houston, or Dallas home ... that's where the opportunities are ... I'm not becoming a lawyer to "change the world" ... I am becoming a lawyer to make a disgusting amount of money and change my own personal position in the world ...



In many ways the V100 is a pretty bad way to go about working at a firm that will pay you a lot of money. That's because most of those firms have near impossible partnership odds (the way you make a "disgusting amount of money") Whereas the litigation boutiques where you make huge amounts of money (Boies and Susman Godfrey for example) are not even on the v100. These firms also tend to be much more selective than the very NYC biased V100 list. Susman is in Texas and Boies has a lot of offices in Florida (though they are in DC, Cali, and NY as well).

Even associates at Susman and Boies pull in 350K+ a year on a regular basis (and keep in mind this is locations where cost of living is much lower than NYC, so they actually enjoy it). You have to make close to 1 million dollars in NYC to live like someone who is making about 300K in Atlanta. Bondurant in Atlanta is very very selective, but the have high partnership odds. Their associates often pull in 200K+ after bonuses. Do you know what that kind of money does for you in Atlanta? Honestly, unless you are a partner at a law firm/Ibank/consulting firm you aren't going to be living that large in NYC working in those industries. Basically, if you want to live large in NYC you better be a CEO , an athlete, an actor, or a multi platinum music artist.


I don't believe that at all.



I hope that's sarcasm. Because if it's not you haven't been doing enough research on the legal field---you're probably relying too much on TLS.


So what is this cost of living calculator missing? http://www.bestplaces.net/COL/

NYC appears to be 50% more expensive than ATL, not 333%.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Why does everyone want to work in a big market?

Postby 09042014 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:06 am

rayiner wrote:I don't know about Kurama's exact numbers, but being a yuppie in Atlanta is ridiculously awesome. My roommate and I paid $800 each for a 1100 sqft 2 bedroom in a new building in a nice part of town. I pay over $1300 now for a 600 sqft convertible in Chicago, and while it's nice it's definitely a step down. I miss my giant bathroom*, marble countertops, washer-dryer hookup, etc.

*) With his and hers' sinks, not that I had much occasion to take advantage...


Too bad you are a student. The condo market in Chicago is a buyers market right now.

If you want more for your buck you should move further north. Lakeview is a lot cheaper than the near north side.

User avatar
kurama20
Posts: 675
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 5:04 pm

Re: Why does everyone want to work in a big market?

Postby kurama20 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:08 am

I mean I don't believe the bolded part about 300K in Atlanta = 1 million in NYC. That's bullshit.

I have no problem with the rest.


EDIT: I didn't consider taxes especially the 40% top marginal rate. In which case its actually probably a lot closer than I thought.[/quote]


Look up what a 800K home is in Atlanta and then look that up in NYC. Look up what a $2500 a month apartment is in Atlanta and then look that up in NYC.

--LinkRemoved--
--LinkRemoved--
--LinkRemoved--




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot] and 4 guests