Fordham vs Cornell?

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fsohn
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby fsohn » Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:56 am

rayiner wrote:The issue here isn't whether Cornell is or is not worth it. The question is, given no money at Fordham, Cornell or Fordham? That's a ridiculous question.


Given no money at Cornell, and given no money at Fordham, it is absolutely NOT a ridiculous question. Unless there is a miracle revival in BigLaw hiring, the entire equation is changed, and compelling family or other personal reasons make Fordham a reasonable alternative to Cornell, such that I couldn't say Fordham is the wrong choice.

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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby awesomepossum » Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:58 am

rayiner wrote:The question here is Cornell or Fordham. With no money at either, it's a no brainer. We're talking 40% chance of bigaw at Cornell versus 10-15% at Fordham.



Agreed.

fsohn
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby fsohn » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:01 am

rayiner wrote:The question here is Cornell or Fordham. With no money at either, it's a no brainer. We're talking 40% chance of bigaw at Cornell versus 10-15% at Fordham.


I stress this: Cornell is still a great place to come for law school.

Nevertheless, you simply cannot afford to come to Cornell expecting Big Law anymore. Even if 40% turns out to be the new normal, that leaves you with a 60% chance of NOT getting Big Law. Yes, the expected return at Cornell is higher than at Fordham in terms of the paycheck, but we are not talking about a range of returns here--we are talking about Big Law or Not Big Law. If you are a risk-averse person, you have a lot of hard thinking to do, and your personal concerns would make it reasonable to consider Fordham and Cornell as not terribly far apart in terms of personal value.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:06 am

normalien wrote:Just to chip in here, I also go to Cornell. My view is that ITE, I'd never take a chance on Fordham over Cornell.

What fsohn said is true, but particularly with respect to the LR folks, the one situation he refers to is indeed an anomaly and one based on interviewing mistakes.

Just to give some context. I'm not top third but somewhere between the top 50% and 30%, non-URM, and on a secondary journal, and I got four call backs and two offers, from firms falling between V100 and V20. Everyone I know on LR (with the exception of the one person that fsohn mentioned) did fine, and most did very well. For instance, two of my buddies are headed to Davis Polk, one's headed to S&C, another to Clifford Chance, and so on.

From what I've gathered, somewhere around 40% of our class came away with firm offers. (Those numbers are an estimate that I've compiled from talking to Career Services and all the people I know, which is a sizable sample of our relatively small class.) But in the interest of full disclosure, some of my friends think my estimate's about 5-10% too high.

I can't say with any certainty that Fordham's 2010 class didn't match those numbers, but from reading boards and meeting others during call backs, my sense is that Fordham was hit harder.

Also, keep in mind that the economy could be in a totally different place in two years. The T14 has been the T14 for a long time. When the market does rebound fully, the T14 will be the first group of schools to see a corresponding surge in recruitment.


I'm only a 1L, so I cannot say with certainty how the class above me did. (I've heard numbers in the 15 to 25% range, but these are rumors, and I don't want to report anything I can't get confirmed.) Before the bubble, we used to place over a third in biglaw, and as someone mentioned, out to 43.7% in 2008. Fordham's biglaw placement never matched Cornell's. Even now, if I knew someone was absolutely certain they wanted biglaw, I would tell that person to go with the T14. The advantages of choosing Fordham are more obvious for someone like me. As I did in undergrad, I'll be able to intern part time every semester by the time I hit 2L year. I already have a legal internship at a nonprofit about ten blocks from Fordham, and I'll be continuing on there in the spring. I'll be able to get a decent amount of PI experience, and hopefully make the networking connections that will lead me to a job.

ITE, many students at both schools are not getting jobs through OCI. That much I can be reasonably certain of. Cornell is an Ivy and a T14, and we know the school has strong lay prestige. Fordham's strength is in its gigantic alumni network, and in the fact that it's practically right on top of top firms and other organizations. UIUC recently had trouble with employers cutting back on recruitment trips; that probably won't happen here.

If the OP knows she wants biglaw, her odds will be better if she goes to Cornell. If biglaw is not the goal, she ought to talk to our admissions office and see if she can get some money. Fordham doesn't have a ton of money to give, but she is probably an attractive candidate if she's holding onto a Cornell acceptance. That way she'll be able to to make the decision that will make her happiest.

BTW, I also went to undergrad in NYC, and I love living here. I do try to have a study/life balance, or I did prior to November and December. I go to at least one opera a month, and I went out about once a week during the first part of the semester, usually with my classmates, fashion friends, or students at our neighboring school uptown. I love the convenience of subways and buses, and it would be hard to adjust to a car culture. That said, Ithaca has its own charms (I've visited, but not super recently) and OP might very well like it. I would not underestimate the impact of personal happiness on performance in law school. There are a number of factors that should go into this decision.

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Jumbo
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby Jumbo » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:08 am

I don't think this warrants a new thread, so hopefully someone at Cornell or a similarly ranked school can answer this:

If I'm doing IP, can I still reasonably assume that Cornell=biglaw ITE? Thanks in advance.

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dresden doll
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby dresden doll » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:16 am

fsohn wrote:
rayiner wrote:The issue here isn't whether Cornell is or is not worth it. The question is, given no money at Fordham, Cornell or Fordham? That's a ridiculous question.


Given no money at Cornell, and given no money at Fordham, it is absolutely NOT a ridiculous question. Unless there is a miracle revival in BigLaw hiring, the entire equation is changed, and compelling family or other personal reasons make Fordham a reasonable alternative to Cornell, such that I couldn't say Fordham is the wrong choice.


The equation isn't changed insofar as chances of getting Biglaw out of Cornell still remain notably higher than chances of getting Biglaw out of Fordham. Also, Cornell LRAP > Fordham LRAP, and Ithaca COL > (as in cheaper than) NYC COL (although admittedly, NYC QOL >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ithaca QOL).

Also, I'm beginning to think that with Cornell numbers, OP should have gone ED at NYU. That would have taken care of the problem. Too late now, though.

cicely101
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby cicely101 » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:17 am

Thanks so much for the feedback thus far folks! So far, it seems like there is a clear theme being stressed:
Big law career= Cornell
Non big law career= Fordham.

But right now, I have no idea what type of law I want to eventually practice. I could end up wanting to work in big law or pursue a career in public interest. I'm pretty open to potential career opportunities! Given that caveat, where do you guys think I should go?

galahad85
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby galahad85 » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:20 am

fsohn wrote:
rayiner wrote:The question here is Cornell or Fordham. With no money at either, it's a no brainer. We're talking 40% chance of bigaw at Cornell versus 10-15% at Fordham.


I stress this: Cornell is still a great place to come for law school.

Nevertheless, you simply cannot afford to come to Cornell expecting Big Law anymore. Even if 40% turns out to be the new normal, that leaves you with a 60% chance of NOT getting Big Law. Yes, the expected return at Cornell is higher than at Fordham in terms of the paycheck, but we are not talking about a range of returns here--we are talking about Big Law or Not Big Law. If you are a risk-averse person, you have a lot of hard thinking to do, and your personal concerns would make it reasonable to consider Fordham and Cornell as not terribly far apart in terms of personal value.


You make it sound like Cornell is the only school that's taken a hit. If prospects are down at Cornell, they're also likely down at Fordham. I don't see how the economic downturn suddenly makes a T30 at sticker a comparable choice to at T14 at sticker... Both may be riskier than they were in the past, but the T14 should still be the safer option.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby Helmholtz » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:21 am

cicely101 wrote:Thanks so much for the feedback thus far folks! So far, it seems like there is a clear theme being stressed:
Big law career= Cornell
Non big law career= Fordham.

But right now, I have no idea what type of law I want to eventually practice. I could end up wanting to work in big law or pursue a career in public interest. I'm pretty open to potential career opportunities! Given that caveat, where do you guys think I should go?


With the money you're paying for law school, clearly biglaw or taking advantage of LRAP by doing public interest work would be the best way to go. Cornell trumps Fordham in biglaw placement and Cornell trumps Fordham in LRAP and (presumably) public interest jobs.

ashleigh
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby ashleigh » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:23 am

cicely101 wrote:Thanks so much for the feedback thus far folks! So far, it seems like there is a clear theme being stressed:
Big law career= Cornell
Non big law career= Fordham.

But right now, I have no idea what type of law I want to eventually practice. I could end up wanting to work in big law or pursue a career in public interest. I'm pretty open to potential career opportunities! Given that caveat, where do you guys think I should go?


cornell - you never know what type of law might catch your eye, so to me it seems that the best approach is to leave as many doors open as possible.

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bilbobaggins
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby bilbobaggins » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:26 am

This is pretty much all you need to know: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBUz4RnoWSM

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D. H2Oman
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby D. H2Oman » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:28 am

cicely101 wrote:Thanks so much for the feedback thus far folks! So far, it seems like there is a clear theme being stressed:
Big law career= Cornell
Non big law career= Fordham.

But right now, I have no idea what type of law I want to eventually practice. I could end up wanting to work in big law or pursue a career in public interest. I'm pretty open to potential career opportunities! Given that caveat, where do you guys think I should go?



Cornell, unless being in NYC means so much to you that it's worth giving up a significantly better opportunity. (only you can really answer that)

09042014
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby 09042014 » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:36 am

cicely101 wrote:Thanks so much for the feedback thus far folks! So far, it seems like there is a clear theme being stressed:
Big law career= Cornell
Non big law career= Fordham.

But right now, I have no idea what type of law I want to eventually practice. I could end up wanting to work in big law or pursue a career in public interest. I'm pretty open to potential career opportunities! Given that caveat, where do you guys think I should go?


I don't think this is true. Unless you are getting a scholarship, Cornell is your answer.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:38 am

Re: our LRAP: it gets the job done. If you work in a qualifying PI job, Fordham will pay your first five years of IBR payments in their entirety. Depending on your salary, you will likely wind up paying something in the neighborhood of $4 to 6k per year towards your loans in the second five years, after which the balance will be forgiven.. I don't know what Cornell does, but I plan to take advantage of my school's LRAP, so I ran the numbers, and I should be fine, assuming I can get that job. :D

To Desert Fox: OP should definitely ask Fordham for some money. She is in a strong position to negotiate.

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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby dresden doll » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:40 am

OperaSoprano wrote:Re: our LRAP: it gets the job done.


Certainly so, but not as well as Cornell's, just as Cornell's LRAP isn't as good as Yale's (although it does get the job done).

09042014
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby 09042014 » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:40 am

OperaSoprano wrote:Re: our LRAP: it gets the job done. If you work in a qualifying PI job, Fordham will pay your first five years of IBR payments in their entirety. Depending on your salary, you will likely wind up paying something in the neighborhood of $4 to 6k per year towards your loans in the second five years, after which the balance will be forgiven.. I don't know what Cornell does, but I plan to take advantage of my school's LRAP, so I ran the numbers, and I should be fine, assuming I can get that job. :D

To Desert Fox: OP should definitely ask Fordham for some money. She is in a strong position to negotiate.


That's a pretty sweet LRAP deal. I wonder what Cornells is.

And OP should ask both schools for some money. Asking never hurts.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:43 am

dresden doll wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:Re: our LRAP: it gets the job done.


Certainly so, but not as well as Cornell's, just as Cornell's LRAP isn't as good as Yale's (although it does get the job done).


LOL, yes. I move that we all just screw this and go to YLS. :lol:

fsohn
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby fsohn » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:44 am

galahad85 wrote:
fsohn wrote:
rayiner wrote:The question here is Cornell or Fordham. With no money at either, it's a no brainer. We're talking 40% chance of bigaw at Cornell versus 10-15% at Fordham.


I stress this: Cornell is still a great place to come for law school.

Nevertheless, you simply cannot afford to come to Cornell expecting Big Law anymore. Even if 40% turns out to be the new normal, that leaves you with a 60% chance of NOT getting Big Law. Yes, the expected return at Cornell is higher than at Fordham in terms of the paycheck, but we are not talking about a range of returns here--we are talking about Big Law or Not Big Law. If you are a risk-averse person, you have a lot of hard thinking to do, and your personal concerns would make it reasonable to consider Fordham and Cornell as not terribly far apart in terms of personal value.


You make it sound like Cornell is the only school that's taken a hit. If prospects are down at Cornell, they're also likely down at Fordham. I don't see how the economic downturn suddenly makes a T30 at sticker a comparable choice to at T14 at sticker... Both may be riskier than they were in the past, but the T14 should still be the safer option.


My point is that "chances" at Big Law quickly fade in the face of a six-figure debt.

To suggest that OP would be unreasonable in choosing Fordham ITE, with a rational attitude of debt aversion and strong personal reasons for staying in NYC, is simply not a good argument at all. Cornell is already (potentially) having issues with summer PI funding, and I harbor worries (as do other classmates) that the Cornell LRAP will not have the money for the 60% of the class that looks like it is going to need it.

Take off the blinders, everyone, and realize that we are in the midst of a sea change in the legal profession. Ignoring the new reality based on a poorly understood notion of the financing of a legal education is not a responsible thing to do. Look before you leap, and know that the leap is a potentially (and probably) a debt-ridden one for years to come.

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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby D. H2Oman » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:46 am

fsohn wrote:
galahad85 wrote:
fsohn wrote:
rayiner wrote:The question here is Cornell or Fordham. With no money at either, it's a no brainer. We're talking 40% chance of bigaw at Cornell versus 10-15% at Fordham.


I stress this: Cornell is still a great place to come for law school.

Nevertheless, you simply cannot afford to come to Cornell expecting Big Law anymore. Even if 40% turns out to be the new normal, that leaves you with a 60% chance of NOT getting Big Law. Yes, the expected return at Cornell is higher than at Fordham in terms of the paycheck, but we are not talking about a range of returns here--we are talking about Big Law or Not Big Law. If you are a risk-averse person, you have a lot of hard thinking to do, and your personal concerns would make it reasonable to consider Fordham and Cornell as not terribly far apart in terms of personal value.



You make it sound like Cornell is the only school that's taken a hit. If prospects are down at Cornell, they're also likely down at Fordham. I don't see how the economic downturn suddenly makes a T30 at sticker a comparable choice to at T14 at sticker... Both may be riskier than they were in the past, but the T14 should still be the safer option.


My point is that "chances" at Big Law quickly fade in the face of a six-figure debt.

To suggest that OP would be unreasonable in choosing Fordham ITE, with a rational attitude of debt aversion and strong personal reasons for staying in NYC, is simply not a good argument at all. Cornell is already (potentially) having issues with summer PI funding, and I harbor worries (as do other classmates) that the Cornell LRAP will not have the money for the 60% of the class that looks like it is going to need it.

Take off the blinders, everyone, and realize that we are in the midst of a sea change in the legal profession. Ignoring the new reality based on a poorly understood notion of the financing of a legal education is not a responsible thing to do. Look before you leap, and know that the leap is a potentially (and probably) a debt-ridden one for years to come.



That's great and all, OP didn't get any money at Fordham though.

galahad85
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby galahad85 » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:49 am

fsohn wrote:
To suggest that OP would be unreasonable in choosing Fordham ITE, with a rational attitude of debt aversion and strong personal reasons for staying in NYC, is simply not a good argument at all.


Why would being debt-averse make someone want to pay full-price at the lower-ranked school? They'd be saving no money, but taking lower job prospects. Fordham is actually even MORE expensive than Cornell, once you factor in NYC COL. (remember, the OP was asking about Fordham @ sticker, not Fordham w/ $$$)

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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby dresden doll » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:50 am

OperaSoprano wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:Re: our LRAP: it gets the job done.


Certainly so, but not as well as Cornell's, just as Cornell's LRAP isn't as good as Yale's (although it does get the job done).


LOL, yes. I move that we all just screw this and go to YLS. :lol:


Motion granted. I'll be the first to follow suit.

fsohn
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby fsohn » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:57 am

galahad85 wrote:
fsohn wrote:
To suggest that OP would be unreasonable in choosing Fordham ITE, with a rational attitude of debt aversion and strong personal reasons for staying in NYC, is simply not a good argument at all.


Why would being debt-averse make someone want to pay full-price at the lower-ranked school? They'd be saving no money, but taking lower job prospects. Fordham is actually even MORE expensive than Cornell, once you factor in NYC COL. (remember, the OP was asking about Fordham @ sticker, not Fordham w/ $$$)


At the risk of sounding exapserated, why do people not understand WTF I am saying? Let me break it down for y'all.

I understand that OP has no money at Fordham. I am assuming that OP also has no money at Cornell.

The fact of the matter is that at both schools in the New Legal Hiring Order, you are more likely than not to be left out of the Big Law moneypot.

You run a substantial risk of incurring debts you will be unable to pay back for about a decade at both schools.

The chance of being debt ridden is high at Cornell.

The chance of being debt ridden is higher at Fordham.

The amount of difference between the two schools is such that if you have personal reasons for staying in NYC, you should stay.

If you are going to incur the debt, you may as well be happy while doing it.

09042014
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby 09042014 » Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:05 am

fsohn wrote:
galahad85 wrote:
fsohn wrote:
To suggest that OP would be unreasonable in choosing Fordham ITE, with a rational attitude of debt aversion and strong personal reasons for staying in NYC, is simply not a good argument at all.


Why would being debt-averse make someone want to pay full-price at the lower-ranked school? They'd be saving no money, but taking lower job prospects. Fordham is actually even MORE expensive than Cornell, once you factor in NYC COL. (remember, the OP was asking about Fordham @ sticker, not Fordham w/ $$$)


At the risk of sounding exapserated, why do people not understand WTF I am saying? Let me break it down for y'all.

I understand that OP has no money at Fordham. I am assuming that OP also has no money at Cornell.

The fact of the matter is that at both schools in the New Legal Hiring Order, you are more likely than not to be left out of the Big Law moneypot.


You run a substantial risk of incurring debts you will be unable to pay back for about a decade at both schools.

The chance of being debt ridden is high at Cornell.

The chance of being debt ridden is higher at Fordham.

The amount of difference between the two schools is such that if you have personal reasons for staying in NYC, you should stay.

If you are going to incur the debt, you may as well be happy while doing it.


Except the OP can do considerably worship in her class at Cornell and make big law compared to fordham. Saying they are both worse than 50% and thus don't consider the difference is silly.

Cornell will also have better opportunities in non big law jobs.

Same debt for much better job placement, Cornell wins.

fsohn
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby fsohn » Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:07 am

Desert Fox wrote:
fsohn wrote:
galahad85 wrote:
fsohn wrote:
To suggest that OP would be unreasonable in choosing Fordham ITE, with a rational attitude of debt aversion and strong personal reasons for staying in NYC, is simply not a good argument at all.


Why would being debt-averse make someone want to pay full-price at the lower-ranked school? They'd be saving no money, but taking lower job prospects. Fordham is actually even MORE expensive than Cornell, once you factor in NYC COL. (remember, the OP was asking about Fordham @ sticker, not Fordham w/ $$$)


At the risk of sounding exapserated, why do people not understand WTF I am saying? Let me break it down for y'all.

I understand that OP has no money at Fordham. I am assuming that OP also has no money at Cornell.

The fact of the matter is that at both schools in the New Legal Hiring Order, you are more likely than not to be left out of the Big Law moneypot.


You run a substantial risk of incurring debts you will be unable to pay back for about a decade at both schools.

The chance of being debt ridden is high at Cornell.

The chance of being debt ridden is higher at Fordham.

The amount of difference between the two schools is such that if you have personal reasons for staying in NYC, you should stay.

If you are going to incur the debt, you may as well be happy while doing it.


Except the OP can do considerably worship in her class at Cornell and make big law compared to fordham. Saying they are both worse than 50% and thus don't consider the difference is silly.

Cornell will also have better opportunities in non big law jobs.

Same debt for much better job placement, Cornell wins.


Sigh. I give up. Jump in to the deep end, OP, if you will, but be damn prepared to swim. You'll more than likely be doing it for a long, long time

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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby kurama20 » Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:09 am

Because the OP is a URM with a strong undergrad school, she should go to Cornell. That combination with decent grades and networking should give the OP a good shot at some good jobs. Also OP if you want any shot at SEO you will choose Cornell. SEO will hands down reject you if you go to Fordham. If you get SEO you will have a very good shot at a 1L firm job from what people say.




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