Fordham vs Cornell?

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mbw
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby mbw » Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:34 pm

KMaine wrote:Wow, MBW! You really need to get back in class.


Or I need to get my kids back into school. You know the size of my house - way too many people in way too small a space = crankiness.

fsohn
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby fsohn » Fri Jan 01, 2010 2:48 pm

thesealocust wrote:
mbw wrote:Seriously? Dude, it's fucking TLS. Can you say 20-something-clueless echo-chamber? Using this place as your touchstone is...well...


It's still a hell of a lot better than a copy of U.S. News and hearsay from family. The loudest TLS echoes tend to come from NLJ placement surveys and refinements to that data (clerkship stats, academia stats, other rankings, etc.) which means that even if it's a slanted view of the choice / profession espoused by those who haven't entered it, it's hard to imagine a better source.

To add to the echoes: If you go to law school, it will take you 3 years. You will graduate, take an exam, and be an attorney until the day you die. A degree from Cornell will very likely get you more opportunities / $$$ for as many years as you care to leverage it. This isn't college, you're not sight seeing anymore: where you spend the next 3 years pales in comparison to what it will enable you to do for the next 3 decades. Clearly if your deciding between, say, berkeley and UVA location may be the most important factor. Here, however, the reputation (read: employment prospects) difference between Cornell and Fordham, without any cost difference, would make it completely insane for the average person confronted with this decision to go to Fordham.


thesealocust, you make mbw's point perfectly. Thank you both for giving me a reason to quit TLS for good in the new year.

rundoxierun
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby rundoxierun » Fri Jan 01, 2010 3:12 pm

Wait... someone is seriously considering paying sticker at Fordham??? Hell, Id struggle to justify sticker at Cornell.. but Cornell sticker vs Fordham sticker is just silly.. Cost of law school:
Lost earnings: 30-40k * 3 years(assuming lib arts major)= 90-120k * an appropriate discount rate for lost opportunity of money.
Cost of school: 60k * 3 years=180k * interest rate on loans

Total Cost= at least 285k... (roughly done of course)

Immediate expected value of degrees: using 150k for biglaw(some pay 145k, some 160k), 60k for all other opportunities, assuming no unemplyment
Fordham: (150k * .15) + (60k * .85)= 73.5k
Cornell: (150k * .40) + (60k * .60)= 96k

This is all roughly done of course but I ask you to consider this...

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ruleser
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby ruleser » Fri Jan 01, 2010 3:23 pm

I now live on the other side of the country but grew up in NY (right near the city) and honestly never really heard of Fordham before coming to TLS. Fordham is obviously a good school, but not a national. I am certain if I asked my big law contacts out here in CA if I had a choice between Fordham and Cornell, they'd slap me. You did say you want NY, but life is long - if you ever want to move, Cornell will travel better. Also, if the NY market is still crashed (since that is ground zero of the finanical crash), Cornell travels better. Cornell has better lay prestige, locally and nationally. You can network while in school at Fordham, but ITE, or actually IAE, the choice between Cornell and Fordham at the same price is a no-brainer. Honestly, to me Fordham is still no different than a Loyola - a couple dozen rankings spots higher officially (Loyola was 50ish before the PT thing this year) - but still, just the best of the non-topT1's in a major market. The T1's in NY are higher, so Fordham is a bit higher too because of the East coast bias of the rankings (every school in DC is T1? All 4, really?) What would you say to someone with the choice between Loyola LA and Cornell, both at sticker?

The thing I would say is that if I had offers to Cornell and Fordham in hand, I would contact Fordham and negotiate. They just might throw 20K/year your way and change your equation.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby OperaSoprano » Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:28 pm

ruleser wrote:I now live on the other side of the country but grew up in NY (right near the city) and honestly never really heard of Fordham before coming to TLS. Fordham is obviously a good school, but not a national. I am certain if I asked my big law contacts out here in CA if I had a choice between Fordham and Cornell, they'd slap me. You did say you want NY, but life is long - if you ever want to move, Cornell will travel better. Also, if the NY market is still crashed (since that is ground zero of the finanical crash), Cornell travels better. Cornell has better lay prestige, locally and nationally. You can network while in school at Fordham, but ITE, or actually IAE, the choice between Cornell and Fordham at the same price is a no-brainer. Honestly, to me Fordham is still no different than a Loyola - a couple dozen rankings spots higher officially (Loyola was 50ish before the PT thing this year) - but still, just the best of the non-topT1's in a major market. The T1's in NY are higher, so Fordham is a bit higher too because of the East coast bias of the rankings (every school in DC is T1? All 4, really?) What would you say to someone with the choice between Loyola LA and Cornell, both at sticker?

The thing I would say is that if I had offers to Cornell and Fordham in hand, I would contact Fordham and negotiate. They just might throw 20K/year your way and change your equation.


To echo Helm, I'm also surprised this is still going. Yay for TLS partisanship! I am glad we helped the OP, though.

To address the above: your final two sentences are credited, and if she gets $20k/year from Fordham and is not dead set on biglaw, she should probably take it. As a URM with strong numbers, her cycle may not be over. A late acceptance from a T10 could be in the pipeline, and might change the equation again. I've seen it happen.

However, comparing Fordham to Loyola for biglaw placement is silly. As you know, Fordham placed 43.7% of the c/o 2008 in NLJ250 positions, and Loyola has never (that I have seen) placed above 15%, even during the height of the boom. If you have differing numbers, please post them, since Loyola's 2008 numbers were not listed on the NLJ graphic I am referencing. This is not a criticism of Loyola, merely a comparison of actual placement data. If we assume hiring at both schools is down by 60%, that is about 6% placement for Loyola, and roughly 17.5% for Fordham. Actual hiring data might be better or worse, and someone with a large, guaranteed scholarship at Loyola might want to take it, assuming he or she plans to work in LA and is not banking on biglaw.

I realize TLS is biglaw centric, and for those intent on $160k, my advice remains the same: go to a T14, preferably a T6, and realize even that is no guarantee. I hear there are CLS students without offers, and I have enough friends in CLS '12 not to feel the slightest schadenfreude toward the class above them. I won't make sweeping predictions about the future of biglaw; I don't know enough to do so. I do know that economies recover, personal happiness matters, and Cornell is a great school where the OP may do very well. My happiness at Fordham, and reasonable expectation of landing my desired PI job, should not color my recommendation to her. It merely ought to illuminate that not every decision is or should be solely about money. I expect that TLS will fight me if I have the numbers to transfer and personally elect not to do so.

I hope we advised the OP well, and gave her multiple viewpoints to consider. I won't be at all surprised if she gets word from, say, NYU at the end of the summer. If she does, that will simplify things.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby Helmholtz » Fri Jan 01, 2010 6:01 pm

fsohn wrote:thesealocust, you make mbw's point perfectly. Thank you both for giving me a reason to quit TLS for good in the new year.


zOMG no, please don't go

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Helmholtz
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby Helmholtz » Fri Jan 01, 2010 6:13 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:However, comparing Fordham to Loyola for biglaw placement is silly. As you know, Fordham placed 43.7% of the c/o 2008 in NLJ250 positions.


Any clue what made it jump so high in 2008? From what I've seen, it's been hanging around the 30-35% mark for a while now, excluding the one year jump in '08. Do you think that was an aberration we won't be seeing again, at least for some time? Any prediction on what it might be for the c/o 09, c/o 10 and further classes? My gut instinct is something in the 15-20% range for the most damaged classes, with it bouncing up to 25-35% over the next half dozen years or so with the way NYC has been deeply hit, but I'm not certain. The 2008 year is impressive, but it seems really unwise to hang one's hat on a single year's stats without proof that the school has somehow reached a new natural level of biglaw output (not saying you're doing this at all).

rundoxierun
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby rundoxierun » Fri Jan 01, 2010 6:35 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:However, comparing Fordham to Loyola for biglaw placement is silly. As you know, Fordham placed 43.7% of the c/o 2008 in NLJ250 positions.


Any clue what made it jump so high in 2008? From what I've seen, it's been hanging around the 30-35% mark for a while now, excluding the one year jump in '08. Do you think that was an aberration we won't be seeing again, at least for some time? Any prediction on what it might be for the c/o 09, c/o 10 and further classes? My gut instinct is something in the 15-20% range for the most damaged classes, with it bouncing up to 25-35% over the next half dozen years or so with the way NYC has been deeply hit, but I'm not certain. The 2008 year is impressive, but it seems really unwise to hang one's hat on a single year's stats without proof that the school has somehow reached a new natural level of biglaw output (not saying you're doing this at all).


The comparison between the two schools is hard.. Cali has a bunch of smaller firms that still pay 6 figures while NYC is mostly biglaw then nothing.. this obviously will skew the results when looking at just biglaw..

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dresden doll
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby dresden doll » Fri Jan 01, 2010 6:49 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
fsohn wrote:thesealocust, you make mbw's point perfectly. Thank you both for giving me a reason to quit TLS for good in the new year.


zOMG no, please don't go


:lol: <3

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby OperaSoprano » Fri Jan 01, 2010 6:55 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:However, comparing Fordham to Loyola for biglaw placement is silly. As you know, Fordham placed 43.7% of the c/o 2008 in NLJ250 positions.


Any clue what made it jump so high in 2008? From what I've seen, it's been hanging around the 30-35% mark for a while now, excluding the one year jump in '08. Do you think that was an aberration we won't be seeing again, at least for some time? Any prediction on what it might be for the c/o 09, c/o 10 and further classes? My gut instinct is something in the 15-20% range for the most damaged classes, with it bouncing up to 25-35% over the next half dozen years or so with the way NYC has been deeply hit, but I'm not certain. The 2008 year is impressive, but it seems really unwise to hang one's hat on a single year's stats without proof that the school has somehow reached a new natural level of biglaw output (not saying you're doing this at all).


Top third was our benchmark for a long time. The spike probably meant that firms like Fordham students, and are willing to hire more of us when times are good. Most schools had spikes, but we got onto that "top schools for biglaw hiring" graphic for the first time in 2008, leaping over several peer schools. My answer is that Fordham's ability to place like that will depend entirely on the firms. If the need is there, they seem willing to hire further down in our class, so it's not an issue of my classmates' perceived talent or analytical ability. I am betting on top quarter to top third for the class of 2013, and I hope '12 gets the same. I wouldn't be surprised if we hit 40% again in the future, but I expect this to be cyclical and to take some time. All this is assuming the recovery of the market (to pre boom levels).

I agree with your general analysis, and won't claim anything without numbers to back it up. I expect that Fordham's size, and large, concentrated alumni network, will help somewhat. DB is trying to get people to leave NYC, but nobody wants to go. (96% of incoming 1Ls said this was their market of choice.) I regret that I won't be much help at all. If people were more willing to leave, this might factor in.

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dresden doll
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby dresden doll » Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:01 pm

Oh, and btw, comparing Fordham to Loyola LA is misguided to say the least. At least Fordham doesn't do this:

--LinkRemoved--

--LinkRemoved--

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thesealocust
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby thesealocust » Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:14 pm

that other guy who isn't dresden doll wrote:thesealocust, you make mbw's point perfectly. Thank you both for giving me a reason to quit TLS for good in the new year.


Boom! Headshot!
Last edited by thesealocust on Sat Jan 02, 2010 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dresden doll
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby dresden doll » Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:46 pm

thesealocust wrote:
dresden doll wrote:thesealocust, you make mbw's point perfectly. Thank you both for giving me a reason to quit TLS for good in the new year.


Boom! Headshot!


Hey, hey, hey you misquoted. Don't attribute that inane drivel to me.

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KidA23
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby KidA23 » Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:49 pm

I personally wouldn't recommend either school at full price. Find someplace that will give you a sack of cash.

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kn6542
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby kn6542 » Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:53 pm

normalien wrote: the one situation he refers to is ... one based on interviewing mistakes.



You can't possible know that.

Bankhead
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby Bankhead » Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:11 pm

tkgrrett wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:However, comparing Fordham to Loyola for biglaw placement is silly. As you know, Fordham placed 43.7% of the c/o 2008 in NLJ250 positions.


Any clue what made it jump so high in 2008? From what I've seen, it's been hanging around the 30-35% mark for a while now, excluding the one year jump in '08. Do you think that was an aberration we won't be seeing again, at least for some time? Any prediction on what it might be for the c/o 09, c/o 10 and further classes? My gut instinct is something in the 15-20% range for the most damaged classes, with it bouncing up to 25-35% over the next half dozen years or so with the way NYC has been deeply hit, but I'm not certain. The 2008 year is impressive, but it seems really unwise to hang one's hat on a single year's stats without proof that the school has somehow reached a new natural level of biglaw output (not saying you're doing this at all).


The comparison between the two schools is hard.. Cali has a bunch of smaller firms that still pay 6 figures while NYC is mostly biglaw then nothing.. this obviously will skew the results when looking at just biglaw..


The boutiques are tougher to break into than biglaw (I'm going to take your word and assume that CA has more boutiques than NYC, though I have issues with taking that at face value). If you can't make six figures in NYC, you can't make six figures anywhere -- in terms of entry level legal employment I mean.

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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby kurama20 » Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:31 am

Bankhead wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:However, comparing Fordham to Loyola for biglaw placement is silly. As you know, Fordham placed 43.7% of the c/o 2008 in NLJ250 positions.


Any clue what made it jump so high in 2008? From what I've seen, it's been hanging around the 30-35% mark for a while now, excluding the one year jump in '08. Do you think that was an aberration we won't be seeing again, at least for some time? Any prediction on what it might be for the c/o 09, c/o 10 and further classes? My gut instinct is something in the 15-20% range for the most damaged classes, with it bouncing up to 25-35% over the next half dozen years or so with the way NYC has been deeply hit, but I'm not certain. The 2008 year is impressive, but it seems really unwise to hang one's hat on a single year's stats without proof that the school has somehow reached a new natural level of biglaw output (not saying you're doing this at all).


The comparison between the two schools is hard.. Cali has a bunch of smaller firms that still pay 6 figures while NYC is mostly biglaw then nothing.. this obviously will skew the results when looking at just biglaw..


The boutiques are tougher to break into than biglaw (I'm going to take your word and assume that CA has more boutiques than NYC, though I have issues with taking that at face value). If you can't make six figures in NYC, you can't make six figures anywhere -- in terms of entry level legal employment I mean.



He's basically right. It's one of the things I don't like about NYC, basically nothing but transactional big law firms--where partnership odds are slim to none.

sibley
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby sibley » Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:54 am

on the subject of boutiques, avoid Fein Such & Crane at all costs. Fein Such Kahn (NJ I think?) I hear is okay. It's Crane that's the issue.

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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby antonin » Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:55 am

tkgrrett wrote:Wait... someone is seriously considering paying sticker at Fordham??? Hell, Id struggle to justify sticker at Cornell.. but Cornell sticker vs Fordham sticker is just silly.. Cost of law school:
Lost earnings: 30-40k * 3 years(assuming lib arts major)= 90-120k * an appropriate discount rate for lost opportunity of money.
Cost of school: 60k * 3 years=180k * interest rate on loans

Total Cost= at least 285k... (roughly done of course)

Immediate expected value of degrees: using 150k for biglaw(some pay 145k, some 160k), 60k for all other opportunities, assuming no unemplyment
Fordham: (150k * .15) + (60k * .85)= 73.5k
Cornell: (150k * .40) + (60k * .60)= 96k

This is all roughly done of course but I ask you to consider this...



Why pay sticker at Fordham? Well, it is harder than you think to even get that 30-40k job these days. Second, with that logic why someone pay sticker for a Bachelor degree, that's 200k down the drain, or not? Also, with that logic no one should ever work for public service or the state, unless they are from a third tier.

People here seem to forget that being an attorney is an important position, quite an achievement for most people. They make calculations of plus this and minus that, but most people value much more being an attorney than being an administrative assistant even if the cost-benefit analysis might not be as optimistic.

09042014
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:57 am

antonin wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:Wait... someone is seriously considering paying sticker at Fordham??? Hell, Id struggle to justify sticker at Cornell.. but Cornell sticker vs Fordham sticker is just silly.. Cost of law school:
Lost earnings: 30-40k * 3 years(assuming lib arts major)= 90-120k * an appropriate discount rate for lost opportunity of money.
Cost of school: 60k * 3 years=180k * interest rate on loans

Total Cost= at least 285k... (roughly done of course)

Immediate expected value of degrees: using 150k for biglaw(some pay 145k, some 160k), 60k for all other opportunities, assuming no unemplyment
Fordham: (150k * .15) + (60k * .85)= 73.5k
Cornell: (150k * .40) + (60k * .60)= 96k

This is all roughly done of course but I ask you to consider this...



Why pay sticker at Fordham? Well, it is harder than you think to even get that 30-40k job these days. Second, with that logic why someone pay sticker for a Bachelor degree, that's 200k down the drain, or not? Also, with that logic no one should ever work for public service or the state, unless they are from a third tier.

People here seem to forget that being an attorney is an important position, quite an achievement for most people. They make calculations of plus this and minus that, but most people value much more being an attorney than being an administrative assistant even if the cost-benefit analysis might not be as optimistic.


Paying 200K for a Bachelors is too much.

Bankhead
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby Bankhead » Sun Jan 03, 2010 3:08 am

sibley wrote:Why pay sticker at Fordham? Well, it is harder than you think to even get that 30-40k job these days.


Yes! Very good point!

antonin wrote: Second, with that logic why someone pay sticker for a Bachelor degree, that's 200k down the drain, or not?


Oooh you completely lost me here.

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rw2264
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby rw2264 » Sun Jan 03, 2010 3:20 am

new angle: being in a rural setting for a few years will be interesting, and the cost of living in NYC is outrageous as you all know. go to cornell unless you can get a significant amount of money from fordham--you should find the cost of living in each place and add that to your debt consideration.

flcath
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby flcath » Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:03 pm

It's funny how different threads take on entirely different tones: some are absurdly, stupidly elitist (I saw the line "I'd rather be below median at a T10 than first in my class from a T30" written somewhere on this thread... I'm not joking), and then there are those--like this one--where I have to wonder, even after looking for myself, what you guys have been talking about for 7 pages.

I will concede (as several ITT have already) that Cornell has run into trouble recently, and I thought I was doing a great service by sharing my little anecdote about my brother (a slightly-above-the-median Cornellian) getting shut out of ATL Biglaw, with T14-worshipers who would take sticker at Cornell/GULC over half-tuition at Vandy/UT/UCLA (again, I've actually seen this here).

But this is ridiculous; Cornell vs. Fordham, no money involved???? And Fordham CoL makes it actually MORE expensive than Cornell? I think you'd be very, very foolish to choose Fordham.

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Doritos
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby Doritos » Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:21 am

Go here...

--ImageRemoved--

rookhawk
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby rookhawk » Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:58 am

lol
Last edited by rookhawk on Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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