Fordham vs Cornell?

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sibley
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby sibley » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:57 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
shadowfrost000 wrote:
fsohn wrote:While goals are important to keep people going, goals don't pay the bills.


Cornell doesn't pay the bills? Is that a joke? Compared to what, Harvard?


Compared to Fordham.


+1
The fact of the matter is, there's really no market in Ithaca. You're going to have to relocate, and you're probably going to have to stay in the Northeast for anyone to realize the value of your degree. And then you have all these other top schools to compete with in the big cities. And you have places like Fordham, whose kids have been able to schmooze year-long with firms.

09042014
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:01 pm

sibley wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
shadowfrost000 wrote:
fsohn wrote:While goals are important to keep people going, goals don't pay the bills.


Cornell doesn't pay the bills? Is that a joke? Compared to what, Harvard?


Compared to Fordham.


+1
The fact of the matter is, there's really no market in Ithaca. You're going to have to relocate, and you're probably going to have to stay in the Northeast for anyone to realize the value of your degree. And then you have all these other top schools to compete with in the big cities. And you have places like Fordham, whose kids have been able to schmooze year-long with firms.


Cornell places extreme well in New York City, better than Fordham. A lot better than Fordham.

sibley
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby sibley » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:02 pm

The previous posters disagree with you.

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mbw
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby mbw » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:04 pm

cicely101 wrote:This is weird but a huge factor in my decision, I've heard quality of life sucks at Cornell ie (studying 5-hours a day). I know it's law school and I am fully aware that I have to put in long hours at the library but 5-hour days seem harsh. Can any current Cornelll Law students let me know if this rumor is actually true?


I don't think Cornell is all that different from other schools in that professors seem to expect there to be a ratio of the number of hours of studying to the number of hours of class time, and plan their work accordingly. Cornell 1Ls take 16 hours of classes per week (5 graded classes), thus around 3-4 hours per day. Most profs expect you to spend 1-2 hours of reading/prep for each hour of class. So, yeah, Cornell 1Ls do spend a minimum of 5 hours a day - unless you spread out some of the work onto weekends - reading ahead and such.

I probably spent 4-5 hours prep early in the fall - then kicked it up to 7-8 hours after fall break (October), and finished the last three weeks at 10-12 hour days. Law school is no picnic, and ITE, I think everyone has pushed it up a notch. However, while Cornell is pretty intense, I still suspect that lower ranked schools, where you feel you MUST be in the top 10% to get a job, are far more intense/cut-throat. Also, I think that because our class is so small (210), gunnerish behavior is much more obvious, and gets you ostracized pretty quick. I wonder if that happens at schools with 400-500 students per class.

09042014
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:11 pm

mbw wrote:
cicely101 wrote:This is weird but a huge factor in my decision, I've heard quality of life sucks at Cornell ie (studying 5-hours a day). I know it's law school and I am fully aware that I have to put in long hours at the library but 5-hour days seem harsh. Can any current Cornelll Law students let me know if this rumor is actually true?


I don't think Cornell is all that different from other schools in that professors seem to expect there to be a ratio of the number of hours of studying to the number of hours of class time, and plan their work accordingly. Cornell 1Ls take 16 hours of classes per week (5 graded classes), thus around 3-4 hours per day. Most profs expect you to spend 1-2 hours of reading/prep for each hour of class. So, yeah, Cornell 1Ls do spend a minimum of 5 hours a day - unless you spread out some of the work onto weekends - reading ahead and such.

I probably spent 4-5 hours prep early in the fall - then kicked it up to 7-8 hours after fall break (October), and finished the last three weeks at 10-12 hour days. Law school is no picnic, and ITE, I think everyone has pushed it up a notch. However, while Cornell is pretty intense, I still suspect that lower ranked schools, where you feel you MUST be in the top 10% to get a job, are far more intense/cut-throat. Also, I think that because our class is so small (210), gunnerish behavior is much more obvious, and gets you ostracized pretty quick. I wonder if that happens at schools with 400-500 students per class.


I suspect it takes more work to end up in Fordham top 10% than it does top 40% at Cornell. And those probably place about the same ITE.

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mbw
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby mbw » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:12 pm

fsohn wrote:
mbw wrote:
I've read all the subsequent posts, but came back to quote these two, as I think they strike to the heart of the issue.

I have to chuckle when I read that the Ivy League is ONLY a sports league and Cornell isn't even a REAL Ivy anyway. Generally, I don't claim to have some sort of added knowledge regarding law school issues just because of my age - however, in this case, 20+ years of work/life experience may enhance my perspective just a tad. "Lay prestige" doesn't exist only on TLS - you'll find that in many, if not most, work and social situations, something as ridiculous as the name of ones educational institutions has an inordinate influence how one is perceived by others. For those of us (URMs in particular) who have been systematically blocked from flaunting such pedigrees for centuries, we understand the rules of the game pretty well, and, as rookhawk stated above, recognize how generational pedigrees are even more game-changing.

I have a friend who turned down a full-paid scholly at non-Ivy T-10 for much less money at an Ivy T-10 - Their simple comment? "Who would have thought a [URM] from [large inner-city area] could go to [big-ivy]?" Somehow, I don't think that I would have found myself walking around any of my other accepted schools like I did Cornell this fall, thinking to myself, "Self, you're the first woman in your family to even go to college (well, since we NDNs got kicked out of Dartmouth), and you're at an Ivy law school." Never underestimate the importance of people's dreams.


While goals are important to keep people going, goals don't pay the bills.


Yes, but I never came to Ithaca with BigLaw dreams. Fortunately, in my area of interest, the Cornell brand has a positive association (which is funny, as its association is not with the law school,) and so I'm not really concerned that, as long as I do relatively well, I'll be able to find employment.

Plus, for all of Sibley's hate on Ithaca, it's not a completely horrible place to study law, especially if you have a family/like nature. I turned down at least one higher ranked urban school.

cicely101
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby cicely101 » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:15 pm

mbw wrote:
cicely101 wrote:This is weird but a huge factor in my decision, I've heard quality of life sucks at Cornell ie (studying 5-hours a day). I know it's law school and I am fully aware that I have to put in long hours at the library but 5-hour days seem harsh. Can any current Cornelll Law students let me know if this rumor is actually true?


I don't think Cornell is all that different from other schools in that professors seem to expect there to be a ratio of the number of hours of studying to the number of hours of class time, and plan their work accordingly. Cornell 1Ls take 16 hours of classes per week (5 graded classes), thus around 3-4 hours per day. Most profs expect you to spend 1-2 hours of reading/prep for each hour of class. So, yeah, Cornell 1Ls do spend a minimum of 5 hours a day - unless you spread out some of the work onto weekends - reading ahead and such.

I probably spent 4-5 hours prep early in the fall - then kicked it up to 7-8 hours after fall break (October), and finished the last three weeks at 10-12 hour days. Law school is no picnic, and ITE, I think everyone has pushed it up a notch. However, while Cornell is pretty intense, I still suspect that lower ranked schools, where you feel you MUST be in the top 10% to get a job, are far more intense/cut-throat. Also, I think that because our class is so small (210), gunnerish behavior is much more obvious, and gets you ostracized pretty quick. I wonder if that happens at schools with 400-500 students per class.



Why the heavy 1L load? Two more classes than the average 1L? Does that mean I'd be taking less classes as a 2/3L?

cicely101
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby cicely101 » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:16 pm

BTW: Thanks for your candid responses MBW!

fsohn
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby fsohn » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:31 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
mbw wrote:
cicely101 wrote:This is weird but a huge factor in my decision, I've heard quality of life sucks at Cornell ie (studying 5-hours a day). I know it's law school and I am fully aware that I have to put in long hours at the library but 5-hour days seem harsh. Can any current Cornelll Law students let me know if this rumor is actually true?


I don't think Cornell is all that different from other schools in that professors seem to expect there to be a ratio of the number of hours of studying to the number of hours of class time, and plan their work accordingly. Cornell 1Ls take 16 hours of classes per week (5 graded classes), thus around 3-4 hours per day. Most profs expect you to spend 1-2 hours of reading/prep for each hour of class. So, yeah, Cornell 1Ls do spend a minimum of 5 hours a day - unless you spread out some of the work onto weekends - reading ahead and such.

I probably spent 4-5 hours prep early in the fall - then kicked it up to 7-8 hours after fall break (October), and finished the last three weeks at 10-12 hour days. Law school is no picnic, and ITE, I think everyone has pushed it up a notch. However, while Cornell is pretty intense, I still suspect that lower ranked schools, where you feel you MUST be in the top 10% to get a job, are far more intense/cut-throat. Also, I think that because our class is so small (210), gunnerish behavior is much more obvious, and gets you ostracized pretty quick. I wonder if that happens at schools with 400-500 students per class.


I suspect it takes more work to end up in Fordham top 10% than it does top 40% at Cornell. And those probably place about the same ITE.


I don't know that this is true. I suspect it is not. In any event, playing the percentages with huge sums of money, when you have the option of starting an otherwise fulfilling career out of UG, may not be the best investmnet. With the amount of money law school costs, it is dangerous to rely on the Cornell name to try to get you anywhere, and even more dangerous to expect you can get top 10% at a fine school like Fordham.

fsohn
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby fsohn » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:31 pm

cicely101 wrote:
mbw wrote:
cicely101 wrote:This is weird but a huge factor in my decision, I've heard quality of life sucks at Cornell ie (studying 5-hours a day). I know it's law school and I am fully aware that I have to put in long hours at the library but 5-hour days seem harsh. Can any current Cornelll Law students let me know if this rumor is actually true?


I don't think Cornell is all that different from other schools in that professors seem to expect there to be a ratio of the number of hours of studying to the number of hours of class time, and plan their work accordingly. Cornell 1Ls take 16 hours of classes per week (5 graded classes), thus around 3-4 hours per day. Most profs expect you to spend 1-2 hours of reading/prep for each hour of class. So, yeah, Cornell 1Ls do spend a minimum of 5 hours a day - unless you spread out some of the work onto weekends - reading ahead and such.

I probably spent 4-5 hours prep early in the fall - then kicked it up to 7-8 hours after fall break (October), and finished the last three weeks at 10-12 hour days. Law school is no picnic, and ITE, I think everyone has pushed it up a notch. However, while Cornell is pretty intense, I still suspect that lower ranked schools, where you feel you MUST be in the top 10% to get a job, are far more intense/cut-throat. Also, I think that because our class is so small (210), gunnerish behavior is much more obvious, and gets you ostracized pretty quick. I wonder if that happens at schools with 400-500 students per class.



Why the heavy 1L load? Two more classes than the average 1L? Does that mean I'd be taking less classes as a 2/3L?


You take 13 hours per semester as an upperclassman.

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mbw
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby mbw » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:34 pm

cicely101 wrote:
mbw wrote:
cicely101 wrote:This is weird but a huge factor in my decision, I've heard quality of life sucks at Cornell ie (studying 5-hours a day). I know it's law school and I am fully aware that I have to put in long hours at the library but 5-hour days seem harsh. Can any current Cornelll Law students let me know if this rumor is actually true?


I don't think Cornell is all that different from other schools in that professors seem to expect there to be a ratio of the number of hours of studying to the number of hours of class time, and plan their work accordingly. Cornell 1Ls take 16 hours of classes per week (5 graded classes), thus around 3-4 hours per day. Most profs expect you to spend 1-2 hours of reading/prep for each hour of class. So, yeah, Cornell 1Ls do spend a minimum of 5 hours a day - unless you spread out some of the work onto weekends - reading ahead and such.

I probably spent 4-5 hours prep early in the fall - then kicked it up to 7-8 hours after fall break (October), and finished the last three weeks at 10-12 hour days. Law school is no picnic, and ITE, I think everyone has pushed it up a notch. However, while Cornell is pretty intense, I still suspect that lower ranked schools, where you feel you MUST be in the top 10% to get a job, are far more intense/cut-throat. Also, I think that because our class is so small (210), gunnerish behavior is much more obvious, and gets you ostracized pretty quick. I wonder if that happens at schools with 400-500 students per class.



Why the heavy 1L load? Two more classes than the average 1L? Does that mean I'd be taking less classes as a 2/3L?


Yes, the 1L load is 32 credit hours, while the 2L and 3L years are a total of 56 chrs (I think you have to take at least 12 chrs/semester.) You can also take classes over the summer (I'm heading to the Paris Institute myself :D) or obtain credit through externships.

hiro86
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby hiro86 » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:39 pm

fsohn wrote:
rayiner wrote:The issue here isn't whether Cornell is or is not worth it. The question is, given no money at Fordham, Cornell or Fordham? That's a ridiculous question.


Given no money at Cornell, and given no money at Fordham, it is absolutely NOT a ridiculous question. Unless there is a miracle revival in BigLaw hiring, the entire equation is changed, and compelling family or other personal reasons make Fordham a reasonable alternative to Cornell, such that I couldn't say Fordham is the wrong choice.

It absolutely is a ridiculous question given no money at either school.

sibley
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby sibley » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:43 pm

It's funny how strongly people feel about this.

09042014
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:44 pm

sibley wrote:It's funny how strongly people feel about this.


Its strange to me how much I feel about this. Cornell rejected me. Those bitches!

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kurama20
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby kurama20 » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:48 pm

OP let me repeat this. You will have NO shot at SEO if you go to Fordham. You will have one if you go to Cornell. Getting SEO would allow you to make money in NYC at a big time vault 20 firm before you even became a 1L (and for you since you are from NYC you wouldn't even have to pay for housing, you would pocket the $1000-$1800 a week all for yourself). Also many SEO alums get offered 1L firm positions (in NYC). You would also be eligible for their 1L clerkship program in the southern district of NY, they give you a stipend for this program as well. Go to Cornell.

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MC Southstar
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby MC Southstar » Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:03 pm

kurama20 wrote:OP let me repeat this. You will have NO shot at SEO if you go to Fordham. You will have one if you go to Cornell. Getting SEO would allow you to make money in NYC at a big time vault 20 firm before you even became a 1L (and for you since you are from NYC you wouldn't even have to pay for housing, you would pocket the $1000-$1800 a week all for yourself). Also many SEO alums get offered 1L firm positions (in NYC). You would also be eligible for their 1L clerkship program in the southern district of NY, they give you a stipend for this program as well. Go to Cornell.


You have to be a minority for it..

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mbw
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby mbw » Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:04 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
sibley wrote:It's funny how strongly people feel about this.


Its strange to me how much I feel about this. Cornell rejected me. Those bitches!


Yeah, I saw that last week. Thought it was our loss.

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kurama20
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby kurama20 » Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:04 pm

shadowfrost000 wrote:
kurama20 wrote:OP let me repeat this. You will have NO shot at SEO if you go to Fordham. You will have one if you go to Cornell. Getting SEO would allow you to make money in NYC at a big time vault 20 firm before you even became a 1L (and for you since you are from NYC you wouldn't even have to pay for housing, you would pocket the $1000-$1800 a week all for yourself). Also many SEO alums get offered 1L firm positions (in NYC). You would also be eligible for their 1L clerkship program in the southern district of NY, they give you a stipend for this program as well. Go to Cornell.


You have to be a minority for it..


OP is a Black female.....

sibley
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby sibley » Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:05 pm

shadowfrost000 wrote:
kurama20 wrote:OP let me repeat this. You will have NO shot at SEO if you go to Fordham. You will have one if you go to Cornell. Getting SEO would allow you to make money in NYC at a big time vault 20 firm before you even became a 1L (and for you since you are from NYC you wouldn't even have to pay for housing, you would pocket the $1000-$1800 a week all for yourself). Also many SEO alums get offered 1L firm positions (in NYC). You would also be eligible for their 1L clerkship program in the southern district of NY, they give you a stipend for this program as well. Go to Cornell.


You have to be a minority for it..


I'd like to take this opportunity to grumble over affirmative action having no place in graduate programs.

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dresden doll
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby dresden doll » Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:34 pm

sibley wrote:The previous posters disagree with you.


That's because they're boneheaded on this issue.

I can't even believe that there's a serious debate re: whether Cornell outweighs Fordham when both are to cost OP the same amount. If the choice was between Fordham with money and Cornell at sticker, there'd be something to debate; as it is, this thread is a fail.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby OperaSoprano » Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:40 pm

dresden doll wrote:
sibley wrote:The previous posters disagree with you.


That's because they're boneheaded on this issue.

I can't even believe that there's a serious debate re: whether Cornell outweighs Fordham when both are to cost OP the same amount. If the choice was between Fordham with money and Cornell at sticker, there'd be something to debate; as it is, this thread is a fail.


People in this thread are making unsubstantiated claims. No one knows what the biglaw placement rate was at Fordham this year; I haven't even heard more than rumors, and the rumors I have heard are in the 15-25% range. Fordham hasn't released numbers, but if someone has precise and accurate information for either school, I welcome it.

If OP wants to do SEO, and she needs a T14 for that, she should go to Cornell. However, she should go there because she likes the school and the opportunities it offers, not out of some sense of obligation to attend an Ivy just for the name. This is how people make themselves miserable for three years, and I do think personally happiness has an effect on academic performance. I think she needs to visit Cornell and spend some time in Ithaca talking to students. If I had been admitted, I would certainly have done so, though it would have been difficult for me to move away from NYC. Fordham suits me well, and I mean to defend my school and its people. I am sure there are Cornell students who feel the same way, and there are disaffected people everywhere. I have classmates that still don't believe I won't transfer the minute it becomes an option.

This profession is obsessed with prestige, and I recognize that. Most of us ultimately elect to go to the best school that will have us, unless we get scads of money. I'm advocating research, which the OP is already doing. She should be aware, however, that until schools release actual data (or the NLJ chart comes out), we're just going on anecdotal data gleaned from our classmates. I'm not going to make a claim for Fordham's biglaw placement rate this year, because it would be irresponsible of me to presume to know something that no student knows. In 2008, we had 43.7% to Cornell's 62%; which I thought was very respectable given our ranking and place in the world. I will wait for the next set of substantiated numbers before making any further claims about my school, other than to say that personal happiness trumps all else for me, and I have been very happy here. Fordham was the best school that would have me, so fortunately I was spared a decision like this one.

09042014
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:40 pm

mbw wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
sibley wrote:It's funny how strongly people feel about this.


Its strange to me how much I feel about this. Cornell rejected me. Those bitches!


Yeah, I saw that last week. Thought it was our loss.


Thanks, I got into my ED school so it didn't matter. In fact it only made my acceptance at NU more sweet, because I thought I was going to strike out.

dakatz
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby dakatz » Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:52 pm

Wait a sec, this is sticker to sticker comparison? You would be insane to turn down Cornell if thats the case.

Here are just a few reasons:

-It is an Ivy League T14 school with national prestige
-The cost of living in Ithaca is much lower so a Cornell education might actually be LESS expensive
-Your job prospects will be better, and you will not have to finish as high in your class in order to get a big firm job, if that is your goal
-It is within a more than reasonable driving distance from good old NYC
-The campus is really beautiful (though obviously isolated and a bit dreary during winter months)

And thats just a few reasons. Personally, I'd be hesitant to pay sticker at Cornell. It is VERY expensive. But I would NEVER pay sticker at Fordham. That isn't to say that Fordham isn't a great place to be, but all expenses combined could put you in the hole for over 200K over 3 years. I can't justify that expense for Fordham. If it was Fordham with $ vs. Cornell with nothing, then you have yourself a debate. Its sort of like the one I have. I have Cornell with nothing (assuming I get no merit aid) vs. BU with 25K a year, so I have a real dilemma here. Hell, maybe some of you on here can chime in with your opinions on that one? Cornell with nothing vs. BU with 25K a year?

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby OperaSoprano » Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:01 pm

dakatz wrote:Wait a sec, this is sticker to sticker comparison? You would be insane to turn down Cornell if thats the case.

Here are just a few reasons:

-It is an Ivy League T14 school with national prestige
-The cost of living in Ithaca is much lower so a Cornell education might actually be LESS expensive
-Your job prospects will be better, and you will not have to finish as high in your class in order to get a big firm job, if that is your goal
-It is within a more than reasonable driving distance from good old NYC
-The campus is really beautiful (though obviously isolated and a bit dreary during winter months)

And thats just a few reasons. Personally, I'd be hesitant to pay sticker at Cornell. It is VERY expensive. But I would NEVER pay sticker at Fordham. That isn't to say that Fordham isn't a great place to be, but all expenses combined could put you in the hole for over 200K over 3 years. I can't justify that expense for Fordham. If it was Fordham with $ vs. Cornell with nothing, then you have yourself a debate. Its sort of like the one I have. I have Cornell with nothing (assuming I get no merit aid) vs. BU with 25K a year, so I have a real dilemma here. Hell, maybe some of you on here can chime in with your opinions on that one? Cornell with nothing vs. BU with 25K a year?


I am paying sticker at Fordham, and happily so. Thanks to IBR and our LRAP, I won't have to repay more than $25 to $30k of that money. That said, OP's numbers are better than mine. She would be remiss not to drive a hard bargain for money here, and your own credited response depends on your goals. Even I tell people who are sure they want biglaw to take the higher ranked school. If you have other goals, BU with $25k a year could be very attractive. That's quite generous.

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dresden doll
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Re: Fordham vs Cornell?

Postby dresden doll » Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:10 pm

If the point of this thread is to assess the worth of Cornell relative to worth of happiness OP would experience at being able to stay in NYC, it should never have been started in the first place. We can't possibly know how happy OP would be at Fordham, what it would mean to her and how it compares to better prospects she's practically sure to have out of Cornell. Only OP can make that assessment.

All we can do is offer thoughts on what the choice should objectively be under given circumstances (i.e. money, goals, etc.). The only person who can properly account for subjective factors such as proximity to family is OP herself.




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