UVA >> Georgtown? Really? Forum

[kurama20]

Well I don't want to get into this too much, but consider doing firm searches at the elite DC firms.

Kellog Huber is one of the most elite and selective firms in the nation, about the only school that isn't HYS that is consistently represented in their ranks is UVA (even with GULC being a much bigger school). They have multiple Bristow fellows, ex DOJ attorneys, SCOTUS clerks, and basically everyone has a COA clerkship or a Fed dist clerkship.

http://www.khhte.com/firm.php

Checkout Robbins Russell as well. Same situation (actually they are even harder on GULC). They also are filled with ex DOJ and SCOTUS clerks.

http://www.robbinsrussell.com/index.php

Williams and Connolly is an ultra elite DC firm where the two seemed to be equal. This may have a lot to do with the fact that the founder was a legendary trial lawyer who was a devout Christian and attended GULC. I'm sure you know about W&C

http://www.wc.com/

Covington is another DC firm where GULC seems to be about equal to UVA.
http://www.cov.com/biographies/List.asp ... f54a18ca46

Finally Kirland and Ellis DC. This is another strong DC office firm. This is a firm where GULC actually dominates UVA.
http://www.kirkland.com/sitecontent.cfm ... rch=Search

FWIW I think that UVA is a stronger school than GULC OVERALL (clerkship and non DC placement). But I think that in DC they are closer than what people will lead you to believe.

Super small sample size. 90% of the people at UVA or GULC won't have a shot at (most of) these firms.

Doesn't matter. These are the types of jobs OP is interested in based on our conversations. Also saying it doesn't matter at all just because of sample size is a bit extreme, it may matter less but it matters (and really the Covington, Kirkland, and W&C are not "super small" sample sizes.)

CE from what I've been told by someone else at UVA (who I think is a class ahead of you) the number is a bit better than you quoted. Also a lot of the number has to do with where people were bidding. Focusing on one's home market apparently turned out to be one of the soundest strategies from what I was told.

[Wahoo1L]

My talk with Career Services was back in November, so I wouldn't be surprised if the eventual total of biglaw offers is slightly higher than 33%. Offers seemed to trickle in very late this year.

Did CSO tell you that only two-thirds of the OCI offers were BigLaw? I can't remember very many employers that weren't firms there. I guess some were relatively smaller firms (almost all still paying 100k+), and there were a few agencies (I thought these usually hired in Dec. or later which would mean they wouldn't be included in that total), but I would have thought most OCI offers were BigLaw.

[jawsthegreat]

My talk with Career Services was back in November, so I wouldn't be surprised if the eventual total of biglaw offers is slightly higher than 33%. Offers seemed to trickle in very late this year.

Did CSO tell you that only two-thirds of the OCI offers were BigLaw? I can't remember very many employers that weren't firms there. I guess some were relatively smaller firms (almost all still paying 100k+), and there were a few agencies (I thought these usually hired in Dec. or later which would mean they wouldn't be included in that total), but I would have thought most OCI offers were BigLaw.

CE2JD, was trying to prove me wrong so he could have misspoken.

[thesealocust]

Also, CJ it's your life so live it. One possible alternative to the way you corrected our fellow TLSer Jaws is to say something along the lines of, "Actually, I'm a current student and I spoke w/ OCS and they pegged the total number of OCI offers at 50%. Maybe 2/3 are biglaw." In my scenario I left out any direct insults and cold pricklies just stuck with the facts and conveyed the same thoughts in a much more friendly way. Again, its your life so do what you do just thought I'd point out that there is in fact an alternate way of interacting with people

CE2JD only speaks the truth. He's like a god damned trash-talking magical sitar.

[That being said, I'd also estimate that much more than 2/3 of the OGI offers were 6 figure firm jobs]

Keep in mind that pre-ITE UVA placed >50% into biglaw jobs, which means >>50% had biglaw summer associateships (since lots of people take the $$$ for 2L summer but then do clerkships, PI, or whatever right after graduating). If 50% of the class got 2L summer work at a big firm this year, that would still be an 'ITE' hit.

[CE2JD]

My talk with Career Services was back in November, so I wouldn't be surprised if the eventual total of biglaw offers is slightly higher than 33%. Offers seemed to trickle in very late this year.

Did CSO tell you that only two-thirds of the OCI offers were BigLaw? I can't remember very many employers that weren't firms there. I guess some were relatively smaller firms (almost all still paying 100k+), and there were a few agencies (I thought these usually hired in Dec. or later which would mean they wouldn't be included in that total), but I would have thought most OCI offers were BigLaw.

CE2JD, was trying to prove me wrong so he could have misspoken.

I was obviously guessing as to the percentage of biglaw firms at OGI.

[irishman86]

The numbers for UVA should be closer to 45% BIGLAW, based upon what I have read.

If you go to the "Discuss your law school" section and read 2009 OCI numbers, it seems that 1/3 are getting biglaw or midlaw at Michigan and Penn. I haven't heard anything about UVA specifically, but I doubt that UVA places significantly better than Mich or Penn.

According to the "discuss your law school," 1/3 are getting biglaw out of OCI at Mich and Penn. Not sure how accurate that is, but iMidlaw is a different issue..as people usually mass mail for that, although Mich does get a fair share of midlaw firms at OCI too. So I bet the number is much higher if you include midlaw. I would bet UVA is placing around a similar percentage as well, although DC is arguably a harder market to break into than NYC or Chicago, so it might be faring worse than Mich and Penn simply because of bad 2L bidding on offices (i.e. too many 2Ls focused on DC).

[tcallahan22]

I think the difference between the schools is really overblown on this site. I researched both and got the impression they are really peer schools. But if you're not from the DC area, keep in mind that Georgetown (both at the undergrad and graduate levels) dominates the city in a way that UVA never will. Trying to figure out which one entitles you to more is basically a waste of time. I chose UVA, because I thought it was a great fit for me, and I liked the idea of enjoying a small-town atmosphere for a few years.

[thesealocust]

But if you're not from the DC area, keep in mind that Georgetown (both at the undergrad and graduate levels) dominates the city in a way that UVA never will.

This runs counter to everything I've ever researched about the two schools..?

[avacado111]

But if you're not from the DC area, keep in mind that Georgetown (both at the undergrad and graduate levels) dominates the city in a way that UVA never will.

This runs counter to everything I've ever researched about the two schools..?

hahahaha iknow. tcallahan22 plz link the research. honestly.

[tcallahan22]

There's no research to link, dumbass...have you ever been/lived there? DC:Georgetown as Columbus:Ohio State...half the white-collar population of DC went to Georgetown at some point.

[Rand M.]

There's no research to link, dumbass...have you ever been/lived there? DC:Georgetown as Columbus:Ohio State...half the white-collar population of DC went to Georgetown at some point.

This has little to do with what sorts of opportunities will be available to one after graduation, and more to do with the fact that Georgetown is huge. Diploma mills tend to be well represented in the locale, of course.

[Doritos]

There's no research to link, dumbass...have you ever been/lived there? DC:Georgetown as Columbus:Ohio State...half the white-collar population of DC went to Georgetown at some point.

As a lifelong resident of Columbus and OSU undergrad I must speak on this matter. Most OSU law grads aren't gonna be doin' the big law thing. There aren't that many big firms here (like two) and only the top of the class be gettin' dem jerbs anyway. There will be a disproportionate amount of top OSU grads represented but the avg. OSU law isn't going to have a realistic shot at big law life from what I've anecdotally (not a word) seen and researched for 2 minutes on the interwebz

[tcallahan22]

I never said it has any effect on campus recruiting. Only that Georgetown (as a University) has a much larger presence in Washington, DC as a smaller school. I understand how the somewhat larger size of the law school class could potentially hurt at OCI, but considering that just about everyone on this site will have to go off and find a job on his/her own at some point down the road, if DC is your choice of cities, Georgetown should be a very legitimate consideration, despite what the concensus of people on this site is. Most people on this site are regurgitating what they read here, so hearing it from fifty people doesn't mean anything. Again, the point still stands. Pick the one you like.

[avacado111]

I never said it has any effect on campus recruiting. Only that Georgetown (as a University) has a much larger presence in Washington, DC as a smaller school. I understand how the somewhat larger size of the law school class could potentially hurt at OCI, but considering that just about everyone on this site will have to go off and find a job on his/her own at some point down the road, if DC is your choice of cities, Georgetown should be a very legitimate consideration, despite what the concensus of people on this site is. Most people on this site are regurgitating what they read here, so hearing it from fifty people doesn't mean anything. Again, the point still stands. Pick the one you like.

Employment statistics speaks the most. The end. I don't really get your "distinction." Honestly, go ahead and go to Georgetown, if you want to be in DC (it's a great city) for the next three years. But most people go to law school to get a good job (I don't really know about you... though... maybe you just want to be in DC). So obviously the better choice would be UVA over Georgetown no matter the so called "dominance" that Georgetown has in DC.

Honestly though, you don't need to be so brash about it. I was asking for you to site the stats in regards to employment not about the "notability" of going to Georgetown. Honestly, if I decide to attend UVA next year, I would not want to sit next to someone like you in class.

[thesealocust]

Honestly, if I decide to attend UVA next year, I would not want to sit next to someone like you in class.

--ImageRemoved--

[pianist]

Honestly, if I decide to attend UVA next year, I would not want to sit next to someone like you in class.

--ImageRemoved--

I have to say that, after reading so many posts on TLS, I find proponents of UVA to be the most aggressive (almost offensive) posters. And there are many of them.

I once saw a CNBC interview with Donald Trump in which he furiously emphasized that Forbes miscalculated his net-worth and that he was in fact much wealthier. While what he said may very well be true, I just can't imagine Bill Gates or Warren Buffet making the same kind of statement given the same situation. And I am not talking about an issue of different personalities.

[CE2JD]

Honestly, if I decide to attend UVA next year, I would not want to sit next to someone like you in class.

--ImageRemoved--

I have to say that, after reading so many posts on TLS, I find proponents of UVA to be the most aggressive (almost offensive) posters. And there are many of them.

I once saw a CNBC interview with Donald Trump in which he furiously emphasized that Forbes miscalculated his net-worth and that he was in fact much wealthier. While what he said may very well be true, I just can't imagine Bill Gates or Warren Buffet making the same kind of statement given the same situation. And I am not talking about an issue of different personalities.

Donald Trump went to Wharton. What does he have to do with UVA (other than the fact that he's a douchebag)?

[tcallahan22]

I never said it has any effect on campus recruiting. Only that Georgetown (as a University) has a much larger presence in Washington, DC as a smaller school. I understand how the somewhat larger size of the law school class could potentially hurt at OCI, but considering that just about everyone on this site will have to go off and find a job on his/her own at some point down the road, if DC is your choice of cities, Georgetown should be a very legitimate consideration, despite what the concensus of people on this site is. Most people on this site are regurgitating what they read here, so hearing it from fifty people doesn't mean anything. Again, the point still stands. Pick the one you like.

Employment statistics speaks the most. The end. I don't really get your "distinction." Honestly, go ahead and go to Georgetown, if you want to be in DC (it's a great city) for the next three years. But most people go to law school to get a good job (I don't really know about you... though... maybe you just want to be in DC). So obviously the better choice would be UVA over Georgetown no matter the so called "dominance" that Georgetown has in DC.

Honestly though, you don't need to be so brash about it. I was asking for you to site the stats in regards to employment not about the "notability" of going to Georgetown. Honestly, if I decide to attend UVA next year, I would not want to sit next to someone like you in class.

I still don't think you understand. The comment wasn't in regards to on campus interviews. I was suggesting that in the long run if you want to live in DC there are certain advantages to going to Georgetown that aren't routinely mentioned on this site. And I still stand by that. It can actually be helpful to people to offer insight that is 1. based on actual personal experience and 2. not routinely tossed around on TLS. People like you who think you have a "correct" answer to every question are actually a huge detriment to sites like this. And it's incredibly humorous how you put "notability" in quotes when referencing Georgetown, since it is, in fact, an incredibly well respected university.

[rundoxierun]

This is coming from someone whose SO will still be in DC, and a very serious relationship, so I have every reason in the world to want to stay in DC and go to GULC, but I haven't been able to convince myself it is worth it yet. Would definitely take some $$.

I'm not sure if the placement advantage of UVA ITE is worth sacrificing 3 years away from your SO.

The economy would typically emphasize the placement advantage, rather than diminish it. Making it even more valuable, especially at a lower cost.

Assume school A and school B are the same size. In a normal economy, school A places 100 more people in biglaw than school B. ITE when there's only half the number of biglaw jobs available, school A will only place ~50 or so more people in biglaw than school B.

Based on what I've read from 2Ls, biglaw placement ITE is roughly 25-30% at GULC and 30-35% at UVA, with non-GPA factors being especially emphasized. Personally I (who's aiming for biglaw), would rather spend 3 years with my SO than take the 5% placement advantage.

TLS really, really needs to stop making attempts at math.. Having half the # of biglaw jobs does not necessarily half the difference between biglaw hiring at the school. It could be that biglaw hires less from lower regarded schools and the gap stays the same.. could be that both schools face lower biglaw hiring and the gap falls slightly or stays the same... Could be that biglaw hires less from lower regarded school and goes deeper into higher regarded schools classes.. etc... there are many scenarios where the gap is not halved...

[pianist]

Honestly, if I decide to attend UVA next year, I would not want to sit next to someone like you in class.

--ImageRemoved--

I have to say that, after reading so many posts on TLS, I find proponents of UVA to be the most aggressive (almost offensive) posters. And there are many of them.

I once saw a CNBC interview with Donald Trump in which he furiously emphasized that Forbes miscalculated his net-worth and that he was in fact much wealthier. While what he said may very well be true, I just can't imagine Bill Gates or Warren Buffet making the same kind of statement given the same situation. And I am not talking about an issue of different personalities.

Donald Trump went to Wharton. What does he have to do with UVA (other than the fact that he's a douchebag)?

Sadly, I wasn't talking about who went what school among the three. It's the broader idea of feeling secure and being tolerant. A person who knows, and is content with, his own values and achievements is not likely to be defensive towards others' judgments.

Proponents of UVA on TLS seem always trying to anxiously and restlessly prove something about their school(much more so those of Cornell, Michigan, and Berkeley, just to name a few), which leads me believe that they actually are not completely content with the school despite its superb quality and prestige, just as Donald does not seem to be satisfied with his own wealth, despite its heft.

[Kohinoor]

Sadly, I wasn't talking about who went what school among the three. It's the broader idea of feeling secure and being tolerant. A person who knows, and is content with, his own values and achievements is not likely to be defensive towards others' judgments.

Proponents of UVA on TLS seem always trying to anxiously and restlessly prove something about their school(much more so those of Cornell, Michigan, and Berkeley, just to name a few), which leads me believe that they actually are not completely content with the school despite its superb quality and prestige, just as Donald does not seem to be satisfied with his own wealth, despite its heft.

To be fair, we megapost harder in general. I couldn't even name a Cornell poster off the top of my head. So you may just be tired of always hearing about UVA. I can't imagine why though. Founded by Thomas Jefferson in 1819, Virginia Law is one of the oldest legal institutions in the United States, and has steadily maintained the prestige and employment opportunities that come from being a top ten law school while providing students with an exceptional quality of life. Students are able to enjoy both the attractions of Charlottesville and the surrounding Blue Ridge Mountains while attending school near the major legal markets of the East Coast. They also attend a school that has national reach in placing its graduates, with a strong network of alumni in both the judicial system and the private sector.

Current students say there is nothing like living in Charlottesville. In fact, it is a big draw for prospective students, as it has been rated as one of the country’s best places to live. The city offers a low cost of living compared to other cities with top schools. This helps make the law school experience less stressful for students, as graduates from Virginia Law carry less debt than graduates from any other top law school.

[OneKnight]

Sadly, I wasn't talking about who went what school among the three. It's the broader idea of feeling secure and being tolerant. A person who knows, and is content with, his own values and achievements is not likely to be defensive towards others' judgments.

Proponents of UVA on TLS seem always trying to anxiously and restlessly prove something about their school(much more so those of Cornell, Michigan, and Berkeley, just to name a few), which leads me believe that they actually are not completely content with the school despite its superb quality and prestige, just as Donald does not seem to be satisfied with his own wealth, despite its heft.

To be fair, we megapost harder in general. I couldn't even name a Cornell poster off the top of my head. So you may just be tired of always hearing about UVA. I can't imagine why though. Founded by Thomas Jefferson in 1819, Virginia Law is one of the oldest legal institutions in the United States, and has steadily maintained the prestige and employment opportunities that come from being a top ten law school while providing students with an exceptional quality of life. Students are able to enjoy both the attractions of Charlottesville and the surrounding Blue Ridge Mountains while attending school near the major legal markets of the East Coast. They also attend a school that has national reach in placing its graduates, with a strong network of alumni in both the judicial system and the private sector.

Current students say there is nothing like living in Charlottesville. In fact, it is a big draw for prospective students, as it has been rated as one of the country’s best places to live. The city offers a low cost of living compared to other cities with top schools. This helps make the law school experience less stressful for students, as graduates from Virginia Law carry less debt than graduates from any other top law school.

Hehehe. I feel like I've seen this before...
http://www.top-law-schools.com/virginia-law-school.html

[pianist]

Sadly, I wasn't talking about who went what school among the three. It's the broader idea of feeling secure and being tolerant. A person who knows, and is content with, his own values and achievements is not likely to be defensive towards others' judgments.

Proponents of UVA on TLS seem always trying to anxiously and restlessly prove something about their school(much more so those of Cornell, Michigan, and Berkeley, just to name a few), which leads me believe that they actually are not completely content with the school despite its superb quality and prestige, just as Donald does not seem to be satisfied with his own wealth, despite its heft.

To be fair, we megapost harder in general. I couldn't even name a Cornell poster off the top of my head. So you may just be tired of always hearing about UVA. I can't imagine why though. Founded by Thomas Jefferson in 1819, Virginia Law is one of the oldest legal institutions in the United States, and has steadily maintained the prestige and employment opportunities that come from being a top ten law school while providing students with an exceptional quality of life. Students are able to enjoy both the attractions of Charlottesville and the surrounding Blue Ridge Mountains while attending school near the major legal markets of the East Coast. They also attend a school that has national reach in placing its graduates, with a strong network of alumni in both the judicial system and the private sector.

Current students say there is nothing like living in Charlottesville. In fact, it is a big draw for prospective students, as it has been rated as one of the country’s best places to live. The city offers a low cost of living compared to other cities with top schools. This helps make the law school experience less stressful for students, as graduates from Virginia Law carry less debt than graduates from any other top law school.

It's not the number of posts (Proponents of Michigan just post as often as you do, I believe), but the mentality behind them.

Yes, I am absolutely aware of, and do appreciate, UVA's quality and prestige as well as Charlottesville's friendly atmosphere. I am actually baffled why many of you (perhaps not you Kohinoor) are so defensive.

And I certainly wouldn't do a copy-and-paste to express my own view, and without attribution (unless of course I am the author of what I have just copied). It's borderline offensive.

[DoubleChecks]

Sadly, I wasn't talking about who went what school among the three. It's the broader idea of feeling secure and being tolerant. A person who knows, and is content with, his own values and achievements is not likely to be defensive towards others' judgments.

Proponents of UVA on TLS seem always trying to anxiously and restlessly prove something about their school(much more so those of Cornell, Michigan, and Berkeley, just to name a few), which leads me believe that they actually are not completely content with the school despite its superb quality and prestige, just as Donald does not seem to be satisfied with his own wealth, despite its heft.

To be fair, we megapost harder in general. I couldn't even name a Cornell poster off the top of my head. So you may just be tired of always hearing about UVA. I can't imagine why though. Founded by Thomas Jefferson in 1819, Virginia Law is one of the oldest legal institutions in the United States, and has steadily maintained the prestige and employment opportunities that come from being a top ten law school while providing students with an exceptional quality of life. Students are able to enjoy both the attractions of Charlottesville and the surrounding Blue Ridge Mountains while attending school near the major legal markets of the East Coast. They also attend a school that has national reach in placing its graduates, with a strong network of alumni in both the judicial system and the private sector.

Current students say there is nothing like living in Charlottesville. In fact, it is a big draw for prospective students, as it has been rated as one of the country’s best places to live. The city offers a low cost of living compared to other cities with top schools. This helps make the law school experience less stressful for students, as graduates from Virginia Law carry less debt than graduates from any other top law school.

It's not the number of posts (Proponents of Michigan just post as often as you do, I believe), but the mentality behind them.

Yes, I am absolutely aware of, and do appreciate, UVA's quality and prestige as well as Charlottesville's friendly atmosphere. I am actually baffled why many of you (perhaps not you Kohinoor) are so defensive.

And I certainly wouldn't do a copy-and-paste to express my own view, and without attribution (unless of course I am the author of what I have just copied). It's borderline offensive.

lol you realize it was part of his joke right?

[DoubleChecks]

I never said it has any effect on campus recruiting. Only that Georgetown (as a University) has a much larger presence in Washington, DC as a smaller school. I understand how the somewhat larger size of the law school class could potentially hurt at OCI, but considering that just about everyone on this site will have to go off and find a job on his/her own at some point down the road, if DC is your choice of cities, Georgetown should be a very legitimate consideration, despite what the concensus of people on this site is. Most people on this site are regurgitating what they read here, so hearing it from fifty people doesn't mean anything. Again, the point still stands. Pick the one you like.

Employment statistics speaks the most. The end. I don't really get your "distinction." Honestly, go ahead and go to Georgetown, if you want to be in DC (it's a great city) for the next three years. But most people go to law school to get a good job (I don't really know about you... though... maybe you just want to be in DC). So obviously the better choice would be UVA over Georgetown no matter the so called "dominance" that Georgetown has in DC.

Honestly though, you don't need to be so brash about it. I was asking for you to site the stats in regards to employment not about the "notability" of going to Georgetown. Honestly, if I decide to attend UVA next year, I would not want to sit next to someone like you in class.

I still don't think you understand. The comment wasn't in regards to on campus interviews. I was suggesting that in the long run if you want to live in DC there are certain advantages to going to Georgetown that aren't routinely mentioned on this site. And I still stand by that. It can actually be helpful to people to offer insight that is 1. based on actual personal experience and 2. not routinely tossed around on TLS. People like you who think you have a "correct" answer to every question are actually a huge detriment to sites like this. And it's incredibly humorous how you put "notability" in quotes when referencing Georgetown, since it is, in fact, an incredibly well respected university.

lolwut? are you saying anecdotal evidence > statistics? i mean sure we know statistics are the third worse kind of lies, but certainly better than anecdotal evidence haha

and i see the confusion here, you did that thing where you come in and say a comment similar to the topic being discussed but slightly different to kinda do that other thing where ppl get confused and think the thing that they were talking about is actually the new thing when its not...ohhhhhh