UVA >> Georgtown? Really?

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02082010
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UVA >> Georgtown? Really?

Postby 02082010 » Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:16 pm

I'm expecting my rejection email from Chicago ED tomorrow morning but I've already been admitted to GULC and UVA. The only other T14s I still have pending are HLS (hahaha), NYU, Michigan and Penn.

The conventional wisdom on this site is that GULC is a degree-mill and although it has unparalleled access to DC, it seems that UVA is king with respect to DC placement. Admittedly, I haven't done enough research yet on either school, but would current students and those intimately familiar with placement statistics for clerkships and biglaw enlighten me as to whether UVA handly trumps GULC and is the obvious choice for anyone facing the decision. Ignore $$ considerations for the time being.

Thanks.

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jawsthegreat
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Re: UVA >> Georgtown? Really?

Postby jawsthegreat » Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:26 pm

hopefulundergrad wrote:I'm expecting my rejection email from Chicago ED tomorrow morning but I've already been admitted to GULC and UVA. The only other T14s I still have pending are HLS (hahaha), NYU, Michigan and Penn.

The conventional wisdom on this site is that GULC is a degree-mill and although it has unparalleled access to DC, it seems that UVA is king with respect to DC placement. Admittedly, I haven't done enough research yet on either school, but would current students and those intimately familiar with placement statistics for clerkships and biglaw enlighten me as to whether UVA handly trumps GULC and is the obvious choice for anyone facing the decision. Ignore $$ considerations for the time being.

Thanks.


I think the bashing of GULC on TLS is based largely upon the US News rankings and not upon actual data, with that being said I think it would be hard to argue that UVA is not a better option than GULC in almost every case.

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kurama20
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Re: UVA >> Georgtown? Really?

Postby kurama20 » Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:28 pm

Well I don't want to get into this too much, but consider doing firm searches at the elite DC firms.

Kellog Huber is one of the most elite and selective firms in the nation, about the only school that isn't HYS that is consistently represented in their ranks is UVA (even with GULC being a much bigger school). They have multiple Bristow fellows, ex DOJ attorneys, SCOTUS clerks, and basically everyone has a COA clerkship or a Fed dist clerkship.

http://www.khhte.com/firm.php

Checkout Robbins Russell as well. Same situation (actually they are even harder on GULC). They also are filled with ex DOJ and SCOTUS clerks.

http://www.robbinsrussell.com/index.php

Williams and Connolly is an ultra elite DC firm where the two seemed to be equal. This may have a lot to do with the fact that the founder was a legendary trial lawyer who was a devout Christian and attended GULC. I'm sure you know about W&C

http://www.wc.com/

Covington is another DC firm where GULC seems to be about equal to UVA.
http://www.cov.com/biographies/List.asp ... f54a18ca46

Finally Kirland and Ellis DC. This is another strong DC office firm. This is a firm where GULC actually dominates UVA.
http://www.kirkland.com/sitecontent.cfm ... rch=Search

FWIW I think that UVA is a stronger school than GULC OVERALL (clerkship and non DC placement). But I think that in DC they are closer than what people will lead you to believe.

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CE2JD
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Re: UVA >> Georgtown? Really?

Postby CE2JD » Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:29 pm

My buddy is a 3L at GULC and he says those in the bottom half almost uniformly don't get biglaw jobs. At UVA there seems to be a sizable minority of those in bottom half who still get biglaw.

APimpNamedSlickback
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Re: UVA >> Georgtown? Really?

Postby APimpNamedSlickback » Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:32 pm

I am a city person, so Georgetown's location would be a pretty compelling consideration for me. But by any objective standard, UVA is better. Unless there is a $ issue that comes into play, this question doesn't even merit much thought.
Last edited by APimpNamedSlickback on Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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dresden doll
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Re: UVA >> Georgtown? Really?

Postby dresden doll » Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:33 pm

First off, you probably won't need to make this choice. (What made you think you're getting rejected from U of C anyway?)

Secondly, the class size alone ought to tip you towards UVA. GULC size = murder ITE.

Also, consider that Charlotesville COL will almost certainly be lower than the DC COL. If you really see no differences between GULC and UVA and assume money from neither, you ought to go to UVA for that reason alone.

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kurama20
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Re: UVA >> Georgtown? Really?

Postby kurama20 » Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:35 pm

dresden doll wrote:First off, you probably won't need to make this choice. (What made you think you're getting rejected from U of C anyway?)

Secondly, the class size alone ought to tip you towards UVA. GULC size = murder ITE.

Also, consider that Charlotesville COL will almost certainly be lower than the DC COL. If you really see no differences between GULC and UVA and assume money from neither, you ought to go to UVA for that reason alone.


For me that's a deal breaker. UVA is the least expensive top 14 school to attend. That really really made me like the school.

ArmyVet07
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Re: UVA >> Georgtown? Really?

Postby ArmyVet07 » Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:55 pm

What about for people interested in working for the federal government? Does GULC's location give it an edge there?

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jawsthegreat
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Re: UVA >> Georgtown? Really?

Postby jawsthegreat » Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:42 pm

ArmyVet07 wrote:What about for people interested in working for the federal government? Does GULC's location give it an edge there?


I'm not sure if how GULC does in this area, though I'd imagine they do well, but I do know that there are many opportunities for UVA students wanting to do government work.

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mallard
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Re: UVA >> Georgtown? Really?

Postby mallard » Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:47 pm

You want UVA.

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Borhas
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Re: UVA >> Georgtown? Really?

Postby Borhas » Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:56 pm

I don't know if about this whole > vs >> vs >>> etc notation, but...

since you already got in to UVa just go there, you'll be happy.

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Cavalier
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Re: UVA >> Georgtown? Really?

Postby Cavalier » Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:13 pm

UVA generally places better and is cheaper when you consider CoL. Georgetown is still an outstanding school, but if you have acceptances at both, I think UVA is a better choice unless Georgetown offers you money or you have some compelling reason to be in DC.

garfike
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Re: UVA >> Georgtown? Really?

Postby garfike » Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:27 pm

Does anyone else think UVA may see a large jump in their ranking this year?

bauerahl
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Re: UVA >> Georgtown? Really?

Postby bauerahl » Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:44 pm

garfike wrote:Does anyone else think UVA may see a large jump in their ranking this year?


Why do you say that?

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jawsthegreat
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Re: UVA >> Georgtown? Really?

Postby jawsthegreat » Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:46 pm

bauerahl wrote:
garfike wrote:Does anyone else think UVA may see a large jump in their ranking this year?


Why do you say that?


He probably says that because UVA has increased their score in every substantial category and already was T4 in lawyer/judge scores.

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CE2JD
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Re: UVA >> Georgtown? Really?

Postby CE2JD » Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:49 pm

jawsthegreat wrote:
bauerahl wrote:
garfike wrote:Does anyone else think UVA may see a large jump in their ranking this year?


Why do you say that?


He probably says that because UVA has increased their score in every substantial category and already was T4 in lawyer/judge scores.


How do you know UVA increased its peer assessment score?

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jawsthegreat
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Re: UVA >> Georgtown? Really?

Postby jawsthegreat » Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:51 pm

I know things, Obv.

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Wahoo1L
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Re: UVA >> Georgtown? Really?

Postby Wahoo1L » Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:09 pm

garfike wrote:Does anyone else think UVA may see a large jump in their ranking this year?


It's tough to say. For example, UVA already is ahead of Duke in LSAT, GPA, Judge Assessement, Peer Assement, and Bar Passage Rate for the same jurisdiction, and yet they're still tied.

The real question is whether UVA will try harder to game the system by decreasing yield and increasing expenditures per student. Smaller schools like Duke have the edge in expenditure per student because all law schools have fixed costs that probably don't vary that much based upon class size (i.e. # of librarians, career service people, ect.). Also, it's easier to have a lower faculty to student ratio in smaller law schools. US News favors smaller schools.

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Jumbo
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Re: UVA >> Georgtown? Really?

Postby Jumbo » Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:16 pm

kurama20 wrote:Well I don't want to get into this too much, but consider doing firm searches at the elite DC firms.

Kellog Huber is one of the most elite and selective firms in the nation, about the only school that isn't HYS that is consistently represented in their ranks is UVA (even with GULC being a much bigger school). They have multiple Bristow fellows, ex DOJ attorneys, SCOTUS clerks, and basically everyone has a COA clerkship or a Fed dist clerkship.

http://www.khhte.com/firm.php

Checkout Robbins Russell as well. Same situation (actually they are even harder on GULC). They also are filled with ex DOJ and SCOTUS clerks.

http://www.robbinsrussell.com/index.php

Williams and Connolly is an ultra elite DC firm where the two seemed to be equal. This may have a lot to do with the fact that the founder was a legendary trial lawyer who was a devout Christian and attended GULC. I'm sure you know about W&C

http://www.wc.com/

Covington is another DC firm where GULC seems to be about equal to UVA.
http://www.cov.com/biographies/List.asp ... f54a18ca46

Finally Kirland and Ellis DC. This is another strong DC office firm. This is a firm where GULC actually dominates UVA.
http://www.kirkland.com/sitecontent.cfm ... rch=Search

FWIW I think that UVA is a stronger school than GULC OVERALL (clerkship and non DC placement). But I think that in DC they are closer than what people will lead you to believe.

Super small sample size. 90% of the people at UVA or GULC won't have a shot at (most of) these firms.

oneforship
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Re: UVA >> Georgtown? Really?

Postby oneforship » Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:45 pm

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Last edited by oneforship on Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Jumbo
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Re: UVA >> Georgtown? Really?

Postby Jumbo » Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:47 pm

oneforship wrote:This is coming from someone whose SO will still be in DC, and a very serious relationship, so I have every reason in the world to want to stay in DC and go to GULC, but I haven't been able to convince myself it is worth it yet. Would definitely take some $$.

I'm not sure if the placement advantage of UVA ITE is worth sacrificing 3 years away from your SO.

oneforship
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Re: UVA >> Georgtown? Really?

Postby oneforship » Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:50 pm

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Last edited by oneforship on Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jawsthegreat
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Re: UVA >> Georgtown? Really?

Postby jawsthegreat » Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:55 pm

oneforship wrote:
Jumbo wrote:
oneforship wrote:This is coming from someone whose SO will still be in DC, and a very serious relationship, so I have every reason in the world to want to stay in DC and go to GULC, but I haven't been able to convince myself it is worth it yet. Would definitely take some $$.

I'm not sure if the placement advantage of UVA ITE is worth sacrificing 3 years away from your SO.


The economy would typically emphasize the placement advantage, rather than diminish it. Making it even more valuable, especially at a lower cost.


Also a So shouldn't affect your school decision unless you are married or engaged(Coming from someone who will be leaving a SO 9 hours away to come to UVA)

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Jumbo
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Re: UVA >> Georgtown? Really?

Postby Jumbo » Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:10 pm

oneforship wrote:
Jumbo wrote:
oneforship wrote:This is coming from someone whose SO will still be in DC, and a very serious relationship, so I have every reason in the world to want to stay in DC and go to GULC, but I haven't been able to convince myself it is worth it yet. Would definitely take some $$.

I'm not sure if the placement advantage of UVA ITE is worth sacrificing 3 years away from your SO.


The economy would typically emphasize the placement advantage, rather than diminish it. Making it even more valuable, especially at a lower cost.

Assume school A and school B are the same size. In a normal economy, school A places 100 more people in biglaw than school B. ITE when there's only half the number of biglaw jobs available, school A will only place ~50 or so more people in biglaw than school B.

Based on what I've read from 2Ls, biglaw placement ITE is roughly 25-30% at GULC and 30-35% at UVA, with non-GPA factors being especially emphasized. Personally I (who's aiming for biglaw), would rather spend 3 years with my SO than take the 5% placement advantage.

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jawsthegreat
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Re: UVA >> Georgtown? Really?

Postby jawsthegreat » Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:13 pm

Jumbo wrote:
oneforship wrote:
Jumbo wrote:
oneforship wrote:This is coming from someone whose SO will still be in DC, and a very serious relationship, so I have every reason in the world to want to stay in DC and go to GULC, but I haven't been able to convince myself it is worth it yet. Would definitely take some $$.

I'm not sure if the placement advantage of UVA ITE is worth sacrificing 3 years away from your SO.


The economy would typically emphasize the placement advantage, rather than diminish it. Making it even more valuable, especially at a lower cost.

Assume school A and school B are the same size. In a normal economy, school A places 100 more people in biglaw than school B. ITE when there's only half the number of biglaw jobs available, school A will only place ~50 or so more people in biglaw than school B.

Based on what I've read from 2Ls, biglaw placement ITE is roughly 25-30% at GULC and 30-35% at UVA, with non-GPA factors being especially emphasized. Personally I (who's aiming for biglaw), would rather spend 3 years with my SO than take the 5% placement advantage.


The numbers for UVA should be closer to 45% BIGLAW, based upon what I have read.




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