HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

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BeastCoastHype
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby BeastCoastHype » Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:41 am

crackberry wrote:
kurama20 wrote:lol so no one knows what their talking about except you; classic TLS arrogance. You're trying to change your argument now. Earlier you actually stated that firms rather hire Yale AND Stanford students over Harvard one's because they "burn out". Let me point it out for you below. That's total FLAME. NYC hiring partners do not prefer Stanford grads to Harvard ones. Hell there was a guy on here who was actually an associate at a vault 10 in NYC who went so far as to say that they don't even prefer Yale grads to Harvard one's in biglaw, Yale just outdoes Harvard in academia and clerkships. There really isn't much of a difference between Columbia and Stanford for NYC biglaw either.

What? You called bullshit on a conversation I had. Explain to me how that is not absurd. Were you there for the conversation? Are you my alter-ego?

May I remind you that you said:
kurama20 wrote:You must be kidding. The truth is that Harvard is the king of legal academia along with Yale. When it comes to clerkships, firm placement, elite government, and things like Bristow fellowships Harvard is king.

That is just flat out wrong. Harvard is NOT king in legal academia OR clerkships. I grant you that HLS is king in BigLaw but only because YLS grads don't want BigLaw in the first place! If they did, it would be a different story.


No, I called bullshit on your conversation.

The notion that HLS grads "burn out" on average compared to YLS and SLS grads seems too improbable for a real person to believe. No reasonable lawyer would actually buy the idea that graduates of individual schools are similar enough that there is a convenient, observable temperamental difference among them. It's not like buying a car or a computer, where a certain manufacturer has a process that produces a defect that is replicated in all the products. People go into these schools as individuals, and they come out as individuals. There are ultra competitive, backstabbing assholes at Yale and Stanford and fun loving, easygoing, nice people at Harvard and Columbia. Some from each school can hack long hard hours, some hate it and leave. The uniformity you speak of is pure fiction. I find it extremely hard to believe that a partner at a firm would actually believe that the people who come from Harvard are just defective and can't grind as long as the others. The abundance of Harvard educated partners at big law firms is pretty compelling evidence that it's an untenable position.

Even if you did have this conversation, the conclusion that this "partner" (his name is probably Tyler Durden or Keyser Soze) has drawn is ridiculous for the reasons cited above. I don't know why you would even try to perpetuate such a stupid claim. Don't be mistaken - I'm not disputing the fact that Yale is king for clerkships and academia, but I seriously don't buy this idea that firms only take the Harvard and Columbia grads as some kind of last resort because the oh so perfect Yale and Stanford grads won't come.

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crackberry
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby crackberry » Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:05 am

BeastCoastHype wrote:No, I called bullshit on your conversation.

The notion that HLS grads "burn out" on average compared to YLS and SLS grads seems too improbable for a real person to believe. No reasonable lawyer would actually buy the idea that graduates of individual schools are similar enough that there is a convenient, observable temperamental difference among them. It's not like buying a car or a computer, where a certain manufacturer has a process that produces a defect that is replicated in all the products. People go into these schools as individuals, and they come out as individuals. There are ultra competitive, backstabbing assholes at Yale and Stanford and fun loving, easygoing, nice people at Harvard and Columbia. Some from each school can hack long hard hours, some hate it and leave. The uniformity you speak of is pure fiction. I find it extremely hard to believe that a partner at a firm would actually believe that the people who come from Harvard are just defective and can't grind as long as the others. The abundance of Harvard educated partners at big law firms is pretty compelling evidence that it's an untenable position.

Even if you did have this conversation, the conclusion that this "partner" (his name is probably Tyler Durden or Keyser Soze) has drawn is ridiculous for the reasons cited above. I don't know why you would even try to perpetuate such a stupid claim. Don't be mistaken - I'm not disputing the fact that Yale is king for clerkships and academia, but I seriously don't buy this idea that firms only take the Harvard and Columbia grads as some kind of last resort because the oh so perfect Yale and Stanford grads won't come.

And kurama said:

kurama20 wrote:
BeastCoastHype wrote:I call bullshit on this. Just because a school has a stereotype doesn't mean that the people in that school actually bear it out. This conversation sounds imagined.


+100. You must be kidding.


I never said the words "last resort." I said that this partner told me that he would rather hire YLS or SLS grads, but that they don't often want NYC BigLaw. He told me that YLS and SLS grads are GENERALLY SPEAKING more fun to work with and less likely to burn out than HLS grads. That does not mean that ALL HLS or CLS grads are awful gunners who burn out. It is a GENERALIZATION.

4910
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby 4910 » Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:08 am

easy guys, easy. please don't bash me for this. i admire all of you out there who got into all of the HYS and have the privilege of choosing between the 3.

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Cara
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby Cara » Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:42 am

Personally:

Y > CLS Hamilton > S > H > any other T10 full scholarship

If however I knew I wanted to do PI then I would take S and H ahead of CLS Hamilton because LRAP will cover my loans.

If you can get into HYS you shouldn't need to go outside the T10 for a full scholarship so T20 scholarships are irrelevant.

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Nom Sawyer
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby Nom Sawyer » Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:45 am

ITT: People argue passionately for one of HYS based on: if they're attending it/been accepted at it/or have a deep and enduring childhood love for it.

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TheLuckyOne
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby TheLuckyOne » Sat Dec 26, 2009 8:20 am

SolarWind wrote:ITT: People argue passionately for one of HYS based on: if they're attending it/been accepted at it/or have a deep and enduring childhood love for it.


:lol: This is awesome. In fact, my love is very recent, not a childhood one :wink:

Harvard rocks no matter what, no matter when, and no matter where. 8)

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cigrainger
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby cigrainger » Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:40 am

kurama20 wrote:I would listen to this guy, he sounds knowledgeable. I've been hearing all of this as well. And going to HS over CLS full scholarship (especially S for those not looking to work in California) is just prestige whoring to the fullest. Really for someone looking to work on the east coast even without a full scholarship at CLS I wouldn't say going to SLS is necessarily better.


I thought this. Then I looked at clerking #s. SLS's federal clerkship numbers are absurd.

heyguys
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby heyguys » Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:43 am

SolarWind wrote:ITT: People argue passionately for one of HYS based on: if they're attending it/been accepted at it/or have a deep and enduring childhood love for it.


Assuming "attending it" refers to me, am I arguing passionately for one or the other? My argument was primarily that as far as legal academia is concerned, it probably doesn't matter very much anymore where out of HYSCCN you went because of the shifted emphasis on demonstrated scholarly ability. I do think there are a couple of advantages Yale affords (selecting your own classes second semester, emphasis on scholarly development, writing requirements), but none of these really elevate Yale per se--if you're motivated enough to pursue academia anyway, then if you publish stuff while at HSCCN, I don't think a Yale student will have any advantage over you whatsoever, ceteris paribus.

Outside of academia, as I said I don't think there is any advantage to one over the other. Yale probably has the least amount of pressure and most security for potential students because of the lack of meaningful grades. I'm not sure whether those at HLS enjoy better opportunities than the top YLS students, but I will say for my part that if they don't, then they certainly should because it's probably far more difficult to be at the top of your HLS class than it is to be at the 'top' of your YLS class (whatever that would mean). Stanford is sort of in the middle in all of this, and it's probably just a bit below HY in fed gov jobs, but almost certainly the same as far as biglaw goes. HYS>CCN as far as fed gov goes and maybe as far as V5 firms go, but beyond that, I can't imagine there to be much of a difference.


I will say this about Yale though for those considering it--the education is almost entirely driven by self-motivation. If you want to REALLY learn the law (like, black letter stuff), you need to either go to a different school or come here with it in mind that you will make yourself learn it.

In all honesty, I read a number of posts on the Law Students Forum regarding specific provisions of FRCP and whatnot, and I will have no idea what they're talking about until they start talking about the rules themselves (we don't tend to worry about the rule numbers/subsections...just a sort of theoretical framework). I have finals coming up in two weeks, and I haven't done a single bit of studying for them, and I'm not sure that I plan on doing so. That can either please or alarm people. The reason I chose Y over HS is because it's essentially a riskless investment--no meaningful grades, and I don't have to worry about class rank etc. If that's a sleazy/dumb reason to choose a school, that's fine--I'm risk averse, and Yale is the most riskless investment you can make as far as legal education goes.

If you want my honest opinion and to know why I'm comfortable with the Yale education, being a lawyer just isn't rocket science anymore. A lot of the stuff you do in law school is not intended to tell law firms, "hey, I know a lot about the law." They're intended to say to law firms, "Hey, I'm more clever than X% of my class." When you actually work at the law firm, they'll teach you what you need to know. They won't care that you know all the nuances of the FRCP, because most if it won't be useful for them anyway, and the stuff that is they'll hammer into your head themselves. The virtue of HYSCCN is that the employers don't worry as much about rank because they know that everyone there is clever, and the degree has the pedigree whereby they can brag about having X number of attnys from XYZ law school.

That rationale is related to the fact that if I had been full Darrow'd or Hamilton'd, I would have taken them without a second thought.

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TheWire
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby TheWire » Sat Dec 26, 2009 10:35 am

Honestly, all of you guys should be ashamed of yourselves. I'm not trying to get into this thread (and I promise you I won't) but do you guys have [i]any[i] real confidence in yourselves? There are interviews... Any of these schools will place you fine (yale = clerkships/academia is obvious)

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crackberry
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby crackberry » Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:01 pm

heyguys wrote:In all honesty, I read a number of posts on the Law Students Forum regarding specific provisions of FRCP and whatnot, and I will have no idea what they're talking about until they start talking about the rules themselves (we don't tend to worry about the rule numbers/subsections...just a sort of theoretical framework). I have finals coming up in two weeks, and I haven't done a single bit of studying for them, and I'm not sure that I plan on doing so. That can either please or alarm people. The reason I chose Y over HS is because it's essentially a riskless investment--no meaningful grades, and I don't have to worry about class rank etc. If that's a sleazy/dumb reason to choose a school, that's fine--I'm risk averse, and Yale is the most riskless investment you can make as far as legal education goes.

I don't want to quote your whole post because it's so long, but that was seriously refreshing. Thank you.

pleasebehappy
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby pleasebehappy » Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:21 pm

Where does this idea come from that everyone who gets into Harvard can get a full ride to a T10 school? Maybe that is the case for Yale admits, but I doubt all 830 Harvard admits have the option of a full ride to a top 10.

Here's why:
UChicago and Berkeley don't give out full-ride merit scholarships (they do have lesser scholarships, but nothing that covers full tuition, at least that they have on their websites or anything that I've ever heard of - correct me if this is wrong).

So...only 7 of the top 12 schools (because three are in a tie for 10th) actually give out full rides.

All but one of the 13 full rides to Columbia last year had scores of 176 or over; this is top 25% of the Harvard incoming class. Period. The other 75% don't have a shot.

Michigan only gives out 14 full Darrows (there may be more if they do it on a rolling basis, but still it isn't many if a max of 14 matriculate).

NYU, UVA, Duke, and Northwestern give out some, but not enough to cover Harvard's entire incoming class.

The Levy at Penn isn't even full tuition, but including it here still doesn't make 800, especially considering that many students overlap and receive two full rides.

So, realistically, it seems to me that the choice for many Harvard admits, especially those non-URMs in the bottom 50% of the admitted students' pool, is the choice between a full ride at somewhere like UCLA, Vanderbilt, or WashU or some money at Duke, Michigan, UVA, Penn, Chicago, etc (but not a full ride) or HYS. Is this incorrect?

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crackberry
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby crackberry » Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:26 pm

pleasebehappy wrote:Where does this idea come from that everyone who gets into Harvard can get a full ride to a T10 school? Maybe that is the case for Yale admits, but I doubt all 830 Harvard admits have the option of a full ride to a top 10.

So, realistically, it seems to me that the choice for many Harvard admits, especially those non-URMs in the bottom 50% of the admitted students' pool, is the choice between a full ride at somewhere like UCLA, Vanderbilt, or WashU or some money at Duke, Michigan, UVA, Penn, Chicago, etc (but not a full ride) or HYS. Is this incorrect?

No, you're right. I've been admitted to one of HYS so far, with pending applications at the other two and there is no shot I will get anything even remotely resembling a full-ride at a T10. Hell, I "only" got $90,000 at UCLA. I think if I get money from any T10, it will likely be Michigan (didn't apply to Penn and have withdrawn from UVA) and I bet it wouldn't be more than $10-12K/year MAX.

heyguys
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby heyguys » Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:01 pm

pleasebehappy wrote:Where does this idea come from that everyone who gets into Harvard can get a full ride to a T10 school? Maybe that is the case for Yale admits, but I doubt all 830 Harvard admits have the option of a full ride to a top 10.



Well, I don't think anyone has that idea--I think the hypothetical is 'what if?'

For my part, as I said earlier, I didn't get a full ride anywhere, but I'm currently at YLS. Moreover, a lot of my friends at YLS were rejected by some schools (UChicago, Columbia, NYU come to mind)--same goes for some of my buds at HLS. In fact, because of the need-based aid, I got a better offer financially at YLS and SLS than at a lot of the lower ranked schools to which I was allowed admission.

pleasebehappy
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby pleasebehappy » Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:27 pm

heyguys wrote:
Well, I don't think anyone has that idea--I think the hypothetical is 'what if?'



Unfortunately, it seems preetty common on these types of forums:
puppins wrote:Most people who can get into HYS can get full tuition or close to it from a T10, so that should be the comparison. And my vote is probably HYS


...it is quotes like that on many forums here and the fact that everyone automatically begins comparing a Hamilton to Harvard instead of a full ride to Washington University, Boston University, Vanderbilt, or Emory to Harvard that made me ask this question.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=54893 - This thread from last year is full of quotes like "all 900 HYS admits could have gone to MV or P for free or close to it" or something to that extent...

Does anyone have any evidence whatsoever that this is true?

bahama
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby bahama » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:03 am

HYS admits will usually get money from other top 10 schools but most of them certainly won't be looking at going to a top 10 for free, especially once living expenses are factored in. If they qualify for need based aid, they will likely come out with a better or equal aid package from Y,H,or S than they will from other schools.

From what I know, a lot of H,Y,S admits get offered 0-30k per yr from the other schools with about $20k/yr being where most of them fall. If you look on LSN I think you will see a similar trend. So the real choice for a lot of people is $180k for H,Y,S or $120k (maybe a little less due to COL) at a lower T10.

pleasebehappy
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby pleasebehappy » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:13 am

Bahama, I completely agree. If I don't think I'll get any grant money in financial aid (you have to have a need more than $32,000 or something to qualify for "free" aid money, everything before that is loans and less than 1/2 of Harvard students who qualify as having "need" get any need-based grant money), I'd have to pay the whole $180,000 for HYS through loans and savings. If I could go to a school in the 15-20 range paying more-or-less only COL and not taking out any loans, would this be a dumb decision (to do so with a school in a market in which I wanted to work)?

I really have no idea where I'll end up next year - throughts? What did others do in a similar situation? Anyone thinks that they made the wrong choice?

sam.emton
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby sam.emton » Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:42 am

I'm interested in this too.

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crackberry
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby crackberry » Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:27 pm

sam.emton wrote:I'm interested in this too.

--ImageRemoved--

bahama
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby bahama » Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:39 pm

I think it's really an individual decision that has to do with your personal goals and the specifics of your situation.

If you want BigLaw or a prestigeous clerkship than HYS is your best bet. If you want to be the DA for a county in Iowa, you might be better off going to a lower ranked school with substantial scholarships.

Where is your personal comfort level with the trade offs between more debt but more employment options coming out of a higher ranked school versus less debt and less options coming out of a lower ranked school?

Kulax22
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby Kulax22 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:42 pm

I'm curious why it's always T3 vs. all others? Are HYS truly clustered together with a gap until you reach Columbia?

I'm assuming, on the whole, H=Y=S in terms of general all-round goodness and future prospects.

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crackberry
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby crackberry » Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:05 pm

Kulax22 wrote:I'm curious why it's always T3 vs. all others? Are HYS truly clustered together with a gap until you reach Columbia?

I'm assuming, on the whole, H=Y=S in terms of general all-round goodness and future prospects.

Well nothing is ever that simple, but HYS are on a different plane than every other school. The only exception to this rule is NYC elite BigLaw, where Columbia absolutely holds its own.

That said, for non-BigLaw jobs, HYS are always going to be the best. And among that trio, the conventional wisdom is that Y>H>S or Y>H=S.

Hoopster
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby Hoopster » Fri Jan 08, 2010 12:43 am

Great thread! I'm a 1L at YLS. Now that my disclaimer is out of the way, it's interesting to read crackberry's personal experience talking with lawyers at firms that would prefer to hire YLS/SLS grads over HLS because of the burnout factor. I never thought about it that way but it jibes with my father's biglaw firm's preference in hiring grads from YLS over SLS or HLS if available. The major problem for his firm is YLS grads are more likely to self-select themselves out of biglaw so pickings are slim at best.

I recently experienced having the power of YLS' name on my resume. I applied to several divisions at the DOJ in Washington, DC for this summer's internship. I really had low expectations because competition to get into DOJ is so fierce. Nonetheless, I had an phone interview with every single one of them and three have offered me a position. I haven't yet decided which one but it looks like I'll have to start looking for an apartment down there soon. :) Anyway, I was talking to a very good friend of mine from HLS last night - he's a serious talent with a bright future as a litigator. I didn't know but he also applied to some of the same divisions at DOJ but so far only one phone interview and was told by a couple others they're waiting on a decision - turns out they're waiting to hear from me, even though he applied a couple days earlier. But that one phone interview he had sounds very promising so he may yet get in - it would be so cool for two nerdy dudes from YLS and HLS to room together and intern at DOJ. :wink:

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crackberry
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby crackberry » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:33 am

Hoopster wrote:The major problem for his firm is YLS grads are more likely to self-select themselves out of biglaw so pickings are slim at best.

I think this is a common problem for BigLaw firms. They want YLS grads really badly, but YLS grads are more unlikely than grads from any other school to want them.

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tomhobbes
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby tomhobbes » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:00 am

I'm now imagining hiring partners daydreaming in their offices, thinking "this Yale graduate intrigues me so. I must have him."

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invisiblesun
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby invisiblesun » Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:50 am

crackberry wrote:That is just flat out wrong. Harvard is NOT king in legal academia OR clerkships. I grant you that HLS is king in BigLaw but only because YLS grads don't want BigLaw in the first place! If they did, it would be a different story.


You hear this a lot, and I am in no way trying to suggest that Harvard is better than Yale for clerkships/academia, but I doubt it's as distant of a second as you're making it out to be. They place more total graduates into these fields than Yale (which still comes out to fewer when you adjust for class size), but much like the way many YLS students self-select out of BigLaw and gravitate toward clerkships/academia, I think many HLS students are attracted toward BigLaw and therefore self-select out of clerkships/academia. These aren't apples-to-apples comparisons; it's not like EVERYONE at YLS, HLS, SLS, and CLS is trying to get clerkships/academia and using BigLaw as a fallback. These schools' reputations are also self-perpetuating to a certain extent, and this may be why Chicago has much better clerk/academic placement than Columbia: CLS attracts more candidates interested in NY BigLaw and UChicago attracts more clerkship/academia hopefuls.

Although I doubt any kind of data like this exists, I imagine that if you were to look at a school's number of people attaining clerkships/academic positions compared to how many are striving for them, the gulf between YLS and HLS would be substantially smaller.




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