HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

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kurama20
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby kurama20 » Fri Dec 25, 2009 3:06 pm

The Yale name will help in terms of networking and whatnot, but the market for legal academics has changed substantially in the last 5-10 years. In the past, the formula for academia was generally: 1) go to HYS, preferably YLS, 2) make law review, 3) get a big-name clerkship. The reason for this was that hires were based on judgments of prospective intellectual ability.

Now, law schools are looking to hire people that they see as having a distinct vision of their career interests and a rigorous sense of how their research agenda will progress. Going to Yale helps because they actively help their students shape this agenda (similarly, a Ph.D. will help in this regard for obvious reasons), but there is definitely also a sense that the Yale name will carry a bit as well. That said, I can't imagine that the Harvard or Stanford names will help you any more than Columbia, NYU, or Chicago would.

Ultimately, there are no 'prerequisites' anymore beyond publications and a coherent research agenda.



I would listen to this guy, he sounds knowledgeable. I've been hearing all of this as well. And going to HS over CLS full scholarship (especially S for those not looking to work in California) is just prestige whoring to the fullest. Really for someone looking to work on the east coast even without a full scholarship at CLS I wouldn't say going to SLS is necessarily better.

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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby dresden doll » Fri Dec 25, 2009 3:11 pm

I passed up a T20 full ride to attend T6 at near sticker. I do have to say, though, that I may well have made a different choice if the said T20 were located in the area I'm interested in working. Greater mobility of a T6 degree plus my abiding interest in academia> full ride at T20. That said, I wonder sometimes whether I'll wind up regretting my choice when those loan payments start kicking in.

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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby traficante » Fri Dec 25, 2009 3:16 pm

heyguys wrote:
traficante wrote:
heyguys wrote:
underdawg wrote:full ride T10 > HYS imo

bet on yourself a little!

unless your heart's desire is academia, in which case, yale, every time, all the time



I think underdawg is 100% right here. If I had gotten a full Darrow or a Hamilton, there's no way I'd be at YLS right now, and having done a semester there, I don't feel any differently about it now.

In fact, I would almost say that I disagree with underdawg's caveat regarding academia--honestly, nowadays law schools primarily care about publications and joint degrees (in that order). IMO, the primary advantage of Yale is that here they really push the students to publish law review articles and whatnot and require two substantial pieces of writing before you graduate. If you have the discipline and commitment to pursue academia anyway, then I think that any other T10 school would be the same if you were to focus on getting a law review note or two published before you graduate.


This is interesting to me. Do you think the emphasis on publishing, plus self-selection, is sufficient to explain Yale's recent academic placements? I will have a significant second degree and will have publications out of law school, but thus far I've been thinking that if don't get into Yale (but land somewhere else in the top six), my academic opportunities won't be nearly as good.


The Yale name will help in terms of networking and whatnot, but the market for legal academics has changed substantially in the last 5-10 years. In the past, the formula for academia was generally: 1) go to HYS, preferably YLS, 2) make law review, 3) get a big-name clerkship. The reason for this was that hires were based on judgments of prospective intellectual ability.

Now, law schools are looking to hire people that they see as having a distinct vision of their career interests and a rigorous sense of how their research agenda will progress. Going to Yale helps because they actively help their students shape this agenda (similarly, a Ph.D. will help in this regard for obvious reasons), but there is definitely also a sense that the Yale name will carry a bit as well. That said, I can't imagine that the Harvard or Stanford names will help you any more than Columbia, NYU, or Chicago would.

Ultimately, there are no 'prerequisites' anymore beyond publications and a coherent research agenda.


This is all helpful--I'm still a bit in the dark regarding legal academia. It sounds like it is moving in the direction of the rest of academia (publications rule all). In any event, it is a comforting thought for someone with a Ph.D. and a law-related research agenda; I'm competitive at Yale, but no sure thing.

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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby BeastCoastHype » Fri Dec 25, 2009 3:30 pm

I think people on this board put a bigger gap between HYS and Columbia than there really is anymore. In the past I think there was a big gap, but that seems to have substantially closed over the last 5-6 years or so. Y will always be top dog by a mile, but I'm not sure that the advantages of Harvard and Stanford are actually very pronounced compared to Columbia in terms of mobility and job placement. Columbia has a large class and a big portion of it heads to the west coast each year, so I think it can be easier for Columbia grads to make alumni contacts in the west than it is for Stanford grads to connect in the east. If biglaw/money is your thing, Columbia and Harvard are about neck and neck for wealthiest average alumni.

I also have some vague idea that Columbia is a more fun version of Harvard. It's in New York, which is much better than Boston, and the people there are just the otherwise Harvard candidates who partied harder freshman year of college than those who wind up at H.
Last edited by BeastCoastHype on Fri Dec 25, 2009 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby TheLuckyOne » Fri Dec 25, 2009 3:31 pm

heyguys wrote:but there is definitely also a sense that the Yale name will carry a bit as well. That said, I can't imagine that the Harvard or Stanford names will help you any more than Columbia, NYU, or Chicago would.


:lol: . Just :lol: :lol:

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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby dresden doll » Fri Dec 25, 2009 3:37 pm

BeastCoastHype wrote:I think people on this board put a bigger gap between HYS and Columbia than there really is anymore. In the past I think there was a big gap, but that seems to have substantially closed over the last 5-6 years or so. Y will always be top dog by a mile, but I'm not sure that the advantages of Harvard and Stanford are actually very pronounced compared to Columbia in terms of mobility and job placement. Columbia has a large class and a big portion of it heads to the west coast each year, so I think it can be easier for Columbia grads to make alumni contacts in the west than it is for Stanford grads to connect in the east. If biglaw/money is your thing, Columbia and Harvard are about neck and neck for wealthiest average alumni.

I also have some vague idea that Columbia is a more fun version of Harvard. It's in New York, which is much better than Boston, and the people there are just the otherwise Harvard candidates who partied harder freshman year of college than those who wind up at H.


Either that, or just happened to score a few points lower on the LSAT. My bet is on the latter possibility. I don't imagine CLS to be the relaxed version of HLS at all.

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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby BeastCoastHype » Fri Dec 25, 2009 3:40 pm

dresden doll wrote:
BeastCoastHype wrote:I think people on this board put a bigger gap between HYS and Columbia than there really is anymore. In the past I think there was a big gap, but that seems to have substantially closed over the last 5-6 years or so. Y will always be top dog by a mile, but I'm not sure that the advantages of Harvard and Stanford are actually very pronounced compared to Columbia in terms of mobility and job placement. Columbia has a large class and a big portion of it heads to the west coast each year, so I think it can be easier for Columbia grads to make alumni contacts in the west than it is for Stanford grads to connect in the east. If biglaw/money is your thing, Columbia and Harvard are about neck and neck for wealthiest average alumni.

I also have some vague idea that Columbia is a more fun version of Harvard. It's in New York, which is much better than Boston, and the people there are just the otherwise Harvard candidates who partied harder freshman year of college than those who wind up at H.


Either that, or just happened to score a few points lower on the LSAT. My bet is on the latter possibility. I don't imagine CLS to be the relaxed version of HLS at all.


I thought of that too, but the LSAT range at CLS is 170-175 while at Harvard it's 170-176. The only real discrepancy is GPA range.

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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby dresden doll » Fri Dec 25, 2009 3:44 pm

TheLuckyOne wrote:
heyguys wrote:but there is definitely also a sense that the Yale name will carry a bit as well. That said, I can't imagine that the Harvard or Stanford names will help you any more than Columbia, NYU, or Chicago would.


:lol: . Just :lol: :lol:


I do highly doubt, in fact, that CLS holds a person back more so than HLS would if the case is such that they're after prestigious NYC biglaw (grades being equal, of course). If money's equal, sure, I'd go to HLS. But there's no way I'd take HLS at sticker over substantial money at CLS under such conditions. There's just no practical reason for that.

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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby TheLuckyOne » Fri Dec 25, 2009 3:45 pm

dresden doll wrote:
TheLuckyOne wrote:
heyguys wrote:but there is definitely also a sense that the Yale name will carry a bit as well. That said, I can't imagine that the Harvard or Stanford names will help you any more than Columbia, NYU, or Chicago would.


:lol: . Just :lol: :lol:


I do highly doubt, in fact, that CLS holds a person back more so than HLS would if the case is such that they're after prestigious NYC biglaw (grades being equal, of course). If money's equal, sure, I'd go to HLS. But there's no way I'd take HLS at sticker over substantial money at CLS under such conditions. There's just no practical reason for that.

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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby dresden doll » Fri Dec 25, 2009 3:50 pm

TheLuckyOne wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
TheLuckyOne wrote:
heyguys wrote:but there is definitely also a sense that the Yale name will carry a bit as well. That said, I can't imagine that the Harvard or Stanford names will help you any more than Columbia, NYU, or Chicago would.


:lol: . Just :lol: :lol:


I do highly doubt, in fact, that CLS holds a person back more so than HLS would if the case is such that they're after prestigious NYC biglaw (grades being equal, of course). If money's equal, sure, I'd go to HLS. But there's no way I'd take HLS at sticker over substantial money at CLS under such conditions. There's just no practical reason for that.


Yes, that would be the crucial part of the sentence. I was just pointing out that heyguys's statement is correct in particular contexts, even though I wouldn't agree with it in general.

But he's a 1L Yalie, so what can you expect than some subtle HLS bashing! :P

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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby kurama20 » Fri Dec 25, 2009 4:05 pm

BeastCoastHype wrote:I think people on this board put a bigger gap between HYS and Columbia than there really is anymore. In the past I think there was a big gap, but that seems to have substantially closed over the last 5-6 years or so. Y will always be top dog by a mile, but I'm not sure that the advantages of Harvard and Stanford are actually very pronounced compared to Columbia in terms of mobility and job placement. Columbia has a large class and a big portion of it heads to the west coast each year, so I think it can be easier for Columbia grads to make alumni contacts in the west than it is for Stanford grads to connect in the east. If biglaw/money is your thing, Columbia and Harvard are about neck and neck for wealthiest average alumni.

I also have some vague idea that Columbia is a more fun version of Harvard. It's in New York, which is much better than Boston, and the people there are just the otherwise Harvard candidates who partied harder freshman year of college than those who wind up at H.


LOL so true! You tend to keep it real with your posts! Lets be honest that's the only difference between the students at CLS and HLS, the latter just decided to skip a couple of those parties freshmen year or picked that soci of film class over O-chem!

I do think that what you said about Columbia in regards to biglaw and HLS are true (especially in NYC), with the exception of DC big law. DC really seems to be run by Harvard and Yale (not to mention the high quality clerkships). From what I've seen DC is HY S and then CLS and UVA actually seem to be equal there.

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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby TheLuckyOne » Fri Dec 25, 2009 4:09 pm

dresden doll wrote:
TheLuckyOne wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
TheLuckyOne wrote:
:lol: . Just :lol: :lol:


I do highly doubt, in fact, that CLS holds a person back more so than HLS would if the case is such that they're after prestigious NYC biglaw (grades being equal, of course). If money's equal, sure, I'd go to HLS. But there's no way I'd take HLS at sticker over substantial money at CLS under such conditions. There's just no practical reason for that.


Yes, that would be the crucial part of the sentence. I was just pointing out that heyguys's statement is correct in particular contexts, even though I wouldn't agree with it in general.

But he's a 1L Yalie, so what can you expect than some subtle HLS bashing! :P



Oh, this explains much :P Thanks for that info :D

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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby heyguys » Fri Dec 25, 2009 4:13 pm

My comment regarding HSCCN wasn't meant as a HLS bash. Ultimately, we all know that the Harvard name is big, but in legal academia I don't think it would be significant. The only reason I think the Yale name is (potentially) significant in legal academia hiring is because faculty know that Yale's curriculum is designed to foment an organized research agenda--it really has nothing to do with perceived prestige or whatnot. Again, the prestige factors were significant in the former market for legal academia--as someone else said earlier, law schools are now moving more to a mainstream sort of hiring process.

Now, will you see more people from HYS enter academia? Sure, but that probably doesn't have as much to do with the school name. Harvard has a huge class, and Stanford and Yale tend to have a more personalized curriculum (which may or may not foment the development of an aspiring academic). Ultimately, the propensity for them to be hired probably has to do with the quality of the applicant.

It's important to bear in mind that the hiring process generally is intensely personalized--faculties meet and discuss individual applicants and decide whether to hire, etc. A lot of this is because legal academia is frankly such a cushy job. Tenure track is generally 4-6 years, and schools generally have a VERY high tenure-track to tenure percentage (~95%). So when they hire someone, they're making a huge commitment.

One caveat regarding Harvard and Yale that I forgot to mention: I do think that these two names will help you when it comes to fellowships like the Climenko. Also, insofar as they help with clerkships, the names are significant. It's not that clerkships/law review/etc don't matter anymore, it's just that they don't matter nearly as much as they did in the past.

Anyway, I hope this is helpful. I came here not knowing much about legal academia, but the information Yale faculty affords us really helps to provide a better understanding for how the academic market functions.

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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby TheLuckyOne » Fri Dec 25, 2009 4:22 pm

heyguys wrote:My comment regarding HSCCN wasn't meant as a HLS bash. Ultimately, we all know that the Harvard name is big, but in legal academia I don't think it would be significant. The only reason I think the Yale name is (potentially) significant in legal academia hiring is because faculty know that Yale's curriculum is designed to foment an organized research agenda--it really has nothing to do with perceived prestige or whatnot. Again, the prestige factors were significant in the former market for legal academia--as someone else said earlier, law schools are now moving more to a mainstream sort of hiring process.

Now, will you see more people from HYS enter academia? Sure, but that probably doesn't have as much to do with the school name. Harvard has a huge class, and Stanford and Yale tend to have a more personalized curriculum (which may or may not foment the development of an aspiring academic). Ultimately, the propensity for them to be hired probably has to do with the quality of the applicant.

It's important to bear in mind that the hiring process generally is intensely personalized--faculties meet and discuss individual applicants and decide whether to hire, etc. A lot of this is because legal academia is frankly such a cushy job. Tenure track is generally 4-6 years, and schools generally have a VERY high tenure-track to tenure percentage (~95%). So when they hire someone, they're making a huge commitment.

One caveat regarding Harvard and Yale that I forgot to mention: I do think that these two names will help you when it comes to fellowships like the Climenko. Also, insofar as they help with clerkships, the names are significant. It's not that clerkships/law review/etc don't matter anymore, it's just that they don't matter nearly as much as they did in the past.

Anyway, I hope this is helpful. I came here not knowing much about legal academia, but the information Yale faculty affords us really helps to provide a better understanding for how the academic market functions.


I don't know much about academia either and, in fact, I'm not interested in it at all. I disagree with you, there is one other university in the world that has a comparable name to that of Harvard's, and it's Oxford.

Heyguys, don't confuse some small aspect of a person's future prospects such as academia with a big picture. Harvard's name trumps any other. No wonder there is the "Haaahvaad" joke, actually.

8)

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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby heyguys » Fri Dec 25, 2009 4:26 pm

TheLuckyOne wrote:I don't know much about academia either and, in fact, I'm not interested in it at all. I disagree with you, there is one other university in the world that has a comparable name to that of Harvard's, and it's Oxford.

Heyguys, don't confuse some small aspect of a person's future prospects such as academia with a big picture. Harvard's name trumps any other. No wonder there is the "Haaahvaad" joke, actually.

8)



I think we're talking past each other--I'm limiting my discussion to the legal academia market. Outside of that, I fully recognize the power of the Harvard name, although I think that in hiring Yale is probably equal to it. Stanford is probably a bit beneath it, at least as regards higher level federal government positions and whatnot. As far as biglaw goes, I think they're all basically equal insofar as they get your foot in whatever door you would like--from there, it's ultimately up to you to make of it what you will. No one makes partner because they went to Harvard instead of Yale or Columbia or NYU--they make partner because they are ballers 8) :D .

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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby TheLuckyOne » Fri Dec 25, 2009 4:35 pm

heyguys wrote:
TheLuckyOne wrote:I don't know much about academia either and, in fact, I'm not interested in it at all. I disagree with you, there is one other university in the world that has a comparable name to that of Harvard's, and it's Oxford.

Heyguys, don't confuse some small aspect of a person's future prospects such as academia with a big picture. Harvard's name trumps any other. No wonder there is the "Haaahvaad" joke, actually.

8)



I think we're talking past each other--I'm limiting my discussion to the legal academia market. Outside of that, I fully recognize the power of the Harvard name, although I think that in hiring Yale is probably equal to it. Stanford is probably a bit beneath it, at least as regards higher level federal government positions and whatnot. As far as biglaw goes, I think they're all basically equal insofar as they get your foot in whatever door you would like--from there, it's ultimately up to you to make of it what you will. No one makes partner because they went to Harvard instead of Yale or Columbia or NYU--they make partner because they are ballers 8) :D .



I see your point and, as I said, my knowledge is way too limited when it comes to academia, though, I still think Harvard is equal to Yale even in this respect :wink: 8) I'm unbearable, I know... I completely agree with you regarding Biglaw, however.

On a side note, I would be the happiest person in the world if I had a chance to become a part of Harvard. No money can buy my love :mrgreen:

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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby heyguys » Fri Dec 25, 2009 5:15 pm

TheLuckyOne wrote:
On a side note, I would be the happiest person in the world if I had a chance to become a part of Harvard.


Although it may be presumptuous of me to say so, let me just promise you that the feeling wears off after about 2 months or so.

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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby crackberry » Fri Dec 25, 2009 6:24 pm

I think it's pretty tough to argue with YLS' placement in academia/clerkships. It is far and away the best. After YLS, aren't HLS, SLS and Chicago all pretty equal in those realms?

As far as BigLaw, what I've heard from hiring partners at NYC BigLaw firms is that they would rather take a YLS or SLS grad than a HLS grad, but they don't because YLS and SLS grads don't want NYC BigLaw (YLS grads want clerkships/gov't work/academia and SLS grads want West Coast). As a result, they take a ton of HLS and CLS grads.

I've been told that your average HLS grad is often much more competitive and burns out quicker than your average YLS or SLS grad, which is the reason they are less attractive to hiring partners.

More than one hiring partner has told me, "We would hire Yale's entire class if they would let us." There's no way that's true of any other school.

Harvard's name is definitely the biggest among lay people (let's not get into this again) and in foreign countries, but if you're trying to get a job in U.S. BigLaw or the federal gov't, then who cares?

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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby BeastCoastHype » Fri Dec 25, 2009 7:43 pm

crackberry wrote:I think it's pretty tough to argue with YLS' placement in academia/clerkships. It is far and away the best. After YLS, aren't HLS, SLS and Chicago all pretty equal in those realms?

As far as BigLaw, what I've heard from hiring partners at NYC BigLaw firms is that they would rather take a YLS or SLS grad than a HLS grad, but they don't because YLS and SLS grads don't want NYC BigLaw (YLS grads want clerkships/gov't work/academia and SLS grads want West Coast). As a result, they take a ton of HLS and CLS grads.

I've been told that your average HLS grad is often much more competitive and burns out quicker than your average YLS or SLS grad, which is the reason they are less attractive to hiring partners.

More than one hiring partner has told me, "We would hire Yale's entire class if they would let us." There's no way that's true of any other school.


Harvard's name is definitely the biggest among lay people (let's not get into this again) and in foreign countries, but if you're trying to get a job in U.S. BigLaw or the federal gov't, then who cares?


I call bullshit on this. Just because a school has a stereotype doesn't mean that the people in that school actually bear it out. This conversation sounds imagined.

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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby kurama20 » Fri Dec 25, 2009 7:53 pm

BeastCoastHype wrote:
crackberry wrote:I think it's pretty tough to argue with YLS' placement in academia/clerkships. It is far and away the best. After YLS, aren't HLS, SLS and Chicago all pretty equal in those realms?

As far as BigLaw, what I've heard from hiring partners at NYC BigLaw firms is that they would rather take a YLS or SLS grad than a HLS grad, but they don't because YLS and SLS grads don't want NYC BigLaw (YLS grads want clerkships/gov't work/academia and SLS grads want West Coast). As a result, they take a ton of HLS and CLS grads.

I've been told that your average HLS grad is often much more competitive and burns out quicker than your average YLS or SLS grad, which is the reason they are less attractive to hiring partners.

More than one hiring partner has told me, "We would hire Yale's entire class if they would let us." There's no way that's true of any other school.


Harvard's name is definitely the biggest among lay people (let's not get into this again) and in foreign countries, but if you're trying to get a job in U.S. BigLaw or the federal gov't, then who cares?


I call bullshit on this. Just because a school has a stereotype doesn't mean that the people in that school actually bear it out. This conversation sounds imagined.


+100. You must be kidding. The truth is that Harvard is the king of legal academia along with Yale. When it comes to clerkships, firm placement, elite government, and things like Bristow fellowships Harvard is king. If anything I think that outside of the West Coast HLS is preferred to SLS (hell there was someone on here in the Cali legal field who said that even Cali lawyers said to pick HLS over Stanford if you have the chance). The only school HLS plays second fiddle to is Yale, and even then not by much and really only in academia and clerkships. I do agree with the sentiment that Columbia isn't far behind them for NYC biglaw, but that whole "Harvard is only king amongst lay people" is just some garbage that flies on TLS.

There's this culture on TLS of Stanford being more "special" than HLS because it's smaller and has a lower acceptance rate, but in the real world it doesn't hold true. We have this thing on here with being able to say "oooh it's more selective" and thus better, and there is a backlash against lay people because a lot of people on here are elitist. But don't let that fool you, Harvard is the name in the legal field along with Yale. And don't even get started on the school's placement into non legal fields, HLS has so many CEOs and other powerful grads from there that it isn't even funny. And that thing about preferring not to hire them because of burning out earlier sounds like it was made up. Harvard is definitely better for Fed gov't jobs than Stanford.

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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby 4910 » Fri Dec 25, 2009 9:20 pm

Forum topics like these are what make me love TLS. Until I joined this forum board, the thought of arguing about elite schools such as HYPC never even entered my mind. To me, I would have a decent life no matter where I went. Now, I find myself sucked into these arguments and become more of an elitist douche bag every time I log onto TLS. Just kidding guys, I love you all. You guys make my life more interesting. But seriously, if you get into Yale, just go there. If you have to decide between HLS, SLS, and CLS with full tuition, just roll the dice as you will be fine with either of these institutions in general.

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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby crackberry » Fri Dec 25, 2009 9:31 pm

Lol @ the bullshit call. Why don't you tell me which conversations I've had and which I haven't had. You guys are really stupid. Seriously, what incentive do I have to lie about that? Yes, I am going to SLS next year and would pick it over HLS if I got in, but my point is more that YLS>>>>HLS/any other school. HLS is not king.

Also, as far as king of clerkships, YLS kills HLS any day of the week.

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2000 ... erks.shtml

Look at the fifth column, which adjusts for class size. Sure, HLS has way more clerks than SLS or Chicago but when adjusted for class size - which I think any reasonable person would argue is necessary - those three schools are basically tied for a DISTANT second behind YLS.

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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby kurama20 » Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:19 am

crackberry wrote:Lol @ the bullshit call. Why don't you tell me which conversations I've had and which I haven't had. You guys are really stupid. Seriously, what incentive do I have to lie about that? Yes, I am going to SLS next year and would pick it over HLS if I got in, but my point is more that YLS>>>>HLS/any other school. HLS is not king.

Also, as far as king of clerkships, YLS kills HLS any day of the week.

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2000 ... erks.shtml

Look at the fifth column, which adjusts for class size. Sure, HLS has way more clerks than SLS or Chicago but when adjusted for class size - which I think any reasonable person would argue is necessary - those three schools are basically tied for a DISTANT second behind YLS.


lol so no one knows what their talking about except you; classic TLS arrogance. You're trying to change your argument now. Earlier you actually stated that firms rather hire Yale AND Stanford students over Harvard one's because they "burn out". Let me point it out for you below. That's total FLAME. NYC hiring partners do not prefer Stanford grads to Harvard ones. Hell there was a guy on here who was actually an associate at a vault 10 in NYC who went so far as to say that they don't even prefer Yale grads to Harvard one's in biglaw, Yale just outdoes Harvard in academia and clerkships. There really isn't much of a difference between Columbia and Stanford for NYC biglaw either.

crackberry wrote:I think it's pretty tough to argue with YLS' placement in academia/clerkships. It is far and away the best. After YLS, aren't HLS, SLS and Chicago all pretty equal in those realms?

As far as BigLaw, what I've heard from hiring partners at NYC BigLaw firms is that they would rather take a YLS or SLS grad than a HLS grad, but they don't because YLS and SLS grads don't want NYC BigLaw (YLS grads want clerkships/gov't work/academia and SLS grads want West Coast). As a result, they take a ton of HLS and CLS grads.

I've been told that your average HLS grad is often much more competitive and burns out quicker than your average YLS or SLS grad, which is the reason they are less attractive to hiring partners.

More than one hiring partner has told me, "We would hire Yale's entire class if they would let us." There's no way that's true of any other school.

Harvard's name is definitely the biggest among lay people (let's not get into this again) and in foreign countries, but if you're trying to get a job in U.S. BigLaw or the federal gov't, then who cares?

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MC Southstar
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby MC Southstar » Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:20 am

Getting back on topic, just do the research and draw your own conclusions based on personal need.

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crackberry
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby crackberry » Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:03 am

kurama20 wrote:lol so no one knows what their talking about except you; classic TLS arrogance. You're trying to change your argument now. Earlier you actually stated that firms rather hire Yale AND Stanford students over Harvard one's because they "burn out". Let me point it out for you below. That's total FLAME. NYC hiring partners do not prefer Stanford grads to Harvard ones. Hell there was a guy on here who was actually an associate at a vault 10 in NYC who went so far as to say that they don't even prefer Yale grads to Harvard one's in biglaw, Yale just outdoes Harvard in academia and clerkships. There really isn't much of a difference between Columbia and Stanford for NYC biglaw either.

What? You called bullshit on a conversation I had. Explain to me how that is not absurd. Were you there for the conversation? Are you my alter-ego?

May I remind you that you said:
kurama20 wrote:You must be kidding. The truth is that Harvard is the king of legal academia along with Yale. When it comes to clerkships, firm placement, elite government, and things like Bristow fellowships Harvard is king.

That is just flat out wrong. Harvard is NOT king in legal academia OR clerkships. I grant you that HLS is king in BigLaw but only because YLS grads don't want BigLaw in the first place! If they did, it would be a different story.




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