HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

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pleasebehappy
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HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby pleasebehappy » Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:38 pm

Hi. I would really like to hear everyone's opinions on one of the questions that always appears: whether to go to a Top 14 school and pay full tuition or whether to go to a fourth tier school on a full scholarship. On these boards, the Top 14 schools always seem to win.

But what if we aren't comparing a Top 14 school to a fourth tier school, but instead to a school ranked 15-20? Is going to Duke that much better for job prospects in the south than going to Vanderbilt? Same for Northwestern vs. WUSTL if you want to stay in the Midwest? If you want to work in Dallas, is there really anywhere better to go than Texas?

Anyways, those are just hypotheticals to ponder. I guess the ultimate question is: If given the choice of HYS at full price, going to a lower Top 10 school (Penn, Michigan, UVA, Duke, etc.) with a small scholarship, or going to a school ranked 15-20 (Texas, Vanderbilt, UCLA, USC, WUSTL) with a sizeable scholarship ($30k/yr to full tuition), what would you choose and what factors would go into your decision?

Please feel free to play on different geographical areas (i.e. West Coast, NYC, South, etc.)...any opinions from people who had these choices in previous years would be really helpful!!

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whuts4lunch
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby whuts4lunch » Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:44 pm

HYS: irrespective of rank, if you do the things you need to do, you will get an excellent job in whatever particular legal focus you desire. Normally going into the red is a huge risk, but in this situation I'd say it is actually the safest bet.

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puppleberry finn
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby puppleberry finn » Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:50 pm

Most people who can get into HYS can get full tuition or close to it from a T10, so that should be the comparison. And my vote is probably HYS

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underdawg
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby underdawg » Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:12 pm

full ride T10 > HYS imo

bet on yourself a little!

unless your heart's desire is academia, in which case, yale, every time, all the time

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Moxie
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby Moxie » Sat Dec 19, 2009 8:59 pm

pleasebehappy wrote:Hi. I would really like to hear everyone's opinions on one of the questions that always appears: whether to go to a Top 14 school and pay full tuition or whether to go to a fourth tier school on a full scholarship. On these boards, the Top 14 schools always seem to win.

But what if we aren't comparing a Top 14 school to a fourth tier school, but instead to a school ranked 15-20? Is going to Duke that much better for job prospects in the south than going to Vanderbilt? Same for Northwestern vs. WUSTL if you want to stay in the Midwest? If you want to work in Dallas, is there really anywhere better to go than Texas?

Anyways, those are just hypotheticals to ponder. I guess the ultimate question is: If given the choice of HYS at full price, going to a lower Top 10 school (Penn, Michigan, UVA, Duke, etc.) with a small scholarship, or going to a school ranked 15-20 (Texas, Vanderbilt, UCLA, USC, WUSTL) with a sizeable scholarship ($30k/yr to full tuition), what would you choose and what factors would go into your decision?

Please feel free to play on different geographical areas (i.e. West Coast, NYC, South, etc.)...any opinions from people who had these choices in previous years would be really helpful!!


HYS would trump all in this scenario.
However, T10 with a full ride vs. HYS is a tougher decision. I'd seriously consider a full Darrow at Michigan, Mordecai at Duke, or Dillard at UVA over HS.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby OperaSoprano » Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:26 pm

Full ride at NYU or CLS > HYS at sticker, but it's probably a personal decision at that point.

People with strong ties to specific regions can sub in their favorite T10 for the aforementioned.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby XxSpyKEx » Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:08 am

Yale is a really clear cut case where it would just a horrible decision not to attend there because you are interested in a scholly at a lower ranked school. Harvard is pretty close as well. Stanford would be a tougher decision. Here's why-

If you attend Yale, you will pay a lot for school. However, you will have a LOT of options including the possibility of a SCOTUS clerkship, and in the long run you will either make it into biglaw or elsewhere where you make a lot of money or you will fall under LRAP where Yale repays your student loans. Yale LRAP is by far the best of the best because it pays 100% of your student loans (including up to a certain amount for UG loans) if you make under $60k /year and above that you make only a 25% contribution towards your own loans. Additionally, Yale LRAP doesn't require you to work in public service and from my understanding what it covers is so broad that you don't even need to work in anything law related.

If you attend Harvard, you have LIPP -- which also means you don't have to worry about repaying your loans if you make under $45K /year, and after that you make contributions (not sure if that number is correct). I haven't read to much about this but it covers public service and non-public service law related jobs, so repaying your student loans shouldn't be much of a concern here.

Stanford, on the other hand, from what I could find their LRAP only covers public service jobs (although I think their LRAP might be better then Harvard's for public service).

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby XxSpyKEx » Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:11 am

Moxie wrote:
pleasebehappy wrote:Hi. I would really like to hear everyone's opinions on one of the questions that always appears: whether to go to a Top 14 school and pay full tuition or whether to go to a fourth tier school on a full scholarship. On these boards, the Top 14 schools always seem to win.

But what if we aren't comparing a Top 14 school to a fourth tier school, but instead to a school ranked 15-20? Is going to Duke that much better for job prospects in the south than going to Vanderbilt? Same for Northwestern vs. WUSTL if you want to stay in the Midwest? If you want to work in Dallas, is there really anywhere better to go than Texas?

Anyways, those are just hypotheticals to ponder. I guess the ultimate question is: If given the choice of HYS at full price, going to a lower Top 10 school (Penn, Michigan, UVA, Duke, etc.) with a small scholarship, or going to a school ranked 15-20 (Texas, Vanderbilt, UCLA, USC, WUSTL) with a sizeable scholarship ($30k/yr to full tuition), what would you choose and what factors would go into your decision?

Please feel free to play on different geographical areas (i.e. West Coast, NYC, South, etc.)...any opinions from people who had these choices in previous years would be really helpful!!


HYS would trump all in this scenario.
However, T10 with a full ride vs. HYS is a tougher decision. I'd seriously consider a full Darrow at Michigan, Mordecai at Duke, or Dillard at UVA over HS.


Why (for H)?

I mean if you want to go into biglaw your odds are way better at Harvard (or if you want to clerk, go into academia, or do just about anything outside of shitlaw, etc) and the only reason I can think of taking the money elsewhere is because you are worried about repaying student loans, but with LIPP I don't see how that is an issue..

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biggamejames
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby biggamejames » Fri Dec 25, 2009 3:14 am

Take the money. The freedom that no debt gives you is worth more then a t-14 degree.

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crackberry
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby crackberry » Fri Dec 25, 2009 11:39 am

XxSpyKEx wrote:Yale is a really clear cut case where it would just a horrible decision not to attend there because you are interested in a scholly at a lower ranked school. Harvard is pretty close as well. Stanford would be a tougher decision. Here's why-

If you attend Yale, you will pay a lot for school. However, you will have a LOT of options including the possibility of a SCOTUS clerkship, and in the long run you will either make it into biglaw or elsewhere where you make a lot of money or you will fall under LRAP where Yale repays your student loans. Yale LRAP is by far the best of the best because it pays 100% of your student loans (including up to a certain amount for UG loans) if you make under $60k /year and above that you make only a 25% contribution towards your own loans. Additionally, Yale LRAP doesn't require you to work in public service and from my understanding what it covers is so broad that you don't even need to work in anything law related.

If you attend Harvard, you have LIPP -- which also means you don't have to worry about repaying your loans if you make under $45K /year, and after that you make contributions (not sure if that number is correct). I haven't read to much about this but it covers public service and non-public service law related jobs, so repaying your student loans shouldn't be much of a concern here.

Stanford, on the other hand, from what I could find their LRAP only covers public service jobs (although I think their LRAP might be better then Harvard's for public service).

Stanford's LRAP is better than Harvard's.

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TheLuckyOne
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby TheLuckyOne » Fri Dec 25, 2009 11:54 am

I wouldn't trade Harvard for any school or any amount of money, and the only school that would be able to lure me from YS is Columbia.

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crackberry
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby crackberry » Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:07 pm

TheLuckyOne wrote:I wouldn't trade Harvard for any school or any amount of money, and the only school that would be able to lure me from YS is Columbia.

I've heard from multiple sources that distinguishing oneself at Harvard (graduating near the very top of the class) is more valuable than any placement at Yale or Stanford. Unfortunately, only about 20 out of 550 kids per year can do that, so your odds aren't that good. Graduating below-median at Harvard is probably worse than graduating below-median at Yale or Stanford.

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Nom Sawyer
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby Nom Sawyer » Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:14 pm

crackberry wrote:
TheLuckyOne wrote:I wouldn't trade Harvard for any school or any amount of money, and the only school that would be able to lure me from YS is Columbia.

I've heard from multiple sources that distinguishing oneself at Harvard (graduating near the very top of the class) is more valuable than any placement at Yale or Stanford. Unfortunately, only about 20 out of 550 kids per year can do that, so your odds aren't that good. Graduating below-median at Harvard is probably worse than graduating below-median at Yale or Stanford.


Except Below-Median no longer exists at Harvard :D

heyguys
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby heyguys » Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:16 pm

underdawg wrote:full ride T10 > HYS imo

bet on yourself a little!

unless your heart's desire is academia, in which case, yale, every time, all the time



I think underdawg is 100% right here. If I had gotten a full Darrow or a Hamilton, there's no way I'd be at YLS right now, and having done a semester there, I don't feel any differently about it now.

In fact, I would almost say that I disagree with underdawg's caveat regarding academia--honestly, nowadays law schools primarily care about publications and joint degrees (in that order). IMO, the primary advantage of Yale is that here they really push the students to publish law review articles and whatnot and require two substantial pieces of writing before you graduate. If you have the discipline and commitment to pursue academia anyway, then I think that any other T10 school would be the same if you were to focus on getting a law review note or two published before you graduate.

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crackberry
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby crackberry » Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:22 pm

SolarWind wrote:
crackberry wrote:
TheLuckyOne wrote:I wouldn't trade Harvard for any school or any amount of money, and the only school that would be able to lure me from YS is Columbia.

I've heard from multiple sources that distinguishing oneself at Harvard (graduating near the very top of the class) is more valuable than any placement at Yale or Stanford. Unfortunately, only about 20 out of 550 kids per year can do that, so your odds aren't that good. Graduating below-median at Harvard is probably worse than graduating below-median at Yale or Stanford.


Except Below-Median no longer exists at Harvard :D

Touche. I think you know what I mean though.

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Nom Sawyer
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby Nom Sawyer » Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:24 pm

crackberry wrote:
SolarWind wrote:
crackberry wrote:
TheLuckyOne wrote:I wouldn't trade Harvard for any school or any amount of money, and the only school that would be able to lure me from YS is Columbia.

I've heard from multiple sources that distinguishing oneself at Harvard (graduating near the very top of the class) is more valuable than any placement at Yale or Stanford. Unfortunately, only about 20 out of 550 kids per year can do that, so your odds aren't that good. Graduating below-median at Harvard is probably worse than graduating below-median at Yale or Stanford.


Except Below-Median no longer exists at Harvard :D

Touche. I think you know what I mean though.


Haha well if you mean bottom 10%, then yep this might happen to you out of Harvard:

http://www.myharvardlawyer.us/eugene_action.html

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crackberry
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby crackberry » Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:26 pm

SolarWind wrote:Haha well if you mean bottom 10%, then yep this might happen to you out of Harvard:

http://www.myharvardlawyer.us/eugene_action.html

I assume that is some sort of flame?

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Nom Sawyer
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby Nom Sawyer » Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:31 pm

crackberry wrote:
SolarWind wrote:Haha well if you mean bottom 10%, then yep this might happen to you out of Harvard:

http://www.myharvardlawyer.us/eugene_action.html

I assume that is some sort of flame?


Nope.. that's a real person, real site. The quotes on it are awesome:


I Graduated from Harvard Law School in Cambridge Massachusetts. If you have not heard of Harvard Law school, welcome to planet earth and enjoy your visit.



That's it straight from the site, with same punctuation/coloring.

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MC Southstar
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby MC Southstar » Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:38 pm

HYS even with full scholarship at CLS, unless you have external financial concerns or you desire a career that doesn't require that level of prestige.

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TheLuckyOne
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby TheLuckyOne » Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:44 pm

crackberry wrote:
TheLuckyOne wrote:I wouldn't trade Harvard for any school or any amount of money, and the only school that would be able to lure me from YS is Columbia.

I've heard from multiple sources that distinguishing oneself at Harvard (graduating near the very top of the class) is more valuable than any placement at Yale or Stanford. Unfortunately, only about 20 out of 550 kids per year can do that, so your odds aren't that good. Graduating below-median at Harvard is probably worse than graduating below-median at Yale or Stanford.


I'd say it's more about personal satisfaction than anything. Oh and I don't care even if I graduate in the bottom 5% (though I think graduating at least in the top 50% would be a matter of personal satisfaction as well :P )

I personally don't know of even one GOOD reason to turn down Harvard for any other school. But, hey, that's just me :D

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BeastCoastHype
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby BeastCoastHype » Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:47 pm

shadowfrost000 wrote:HYS even with full scholarship at CLS, unless you have external financial concerns or you desire a career that doesn't require that level of prestige.


Wrong. Y over full ride at CLS, but not H and probably not S unless you want to work on the west coast. Find me a job that Harvard grads have a great shot at that CLS grads can't get unless they are at the very top of their class and we'll talk.

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crackberry
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby crackberry » Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:50 pm

TheLuckyOne wrote:
crackberry wrote:
TheLuckyOne wrote:I wouldn't trade Harvard for any school or any amount of money, and the only school that would be able to lure me from YS is Columbia.

I've heard from multiple sources that distinguishing oneself at Harvard (graduating near the very top of the class) is more valuable than any placement at Yale or Stanford. Unfortunately, only about 20 out of 550 kids per year can do that, so your odds aren't that good. Graduating below-median at Harvard is probably worse than graduating below-median at Yale or Stanford.


I'd say it's more about personal satisfaction than anything. Oh and I don't care even if I graduate in the bottom 5% (though I think graduating at least in the top 50% would be a matter of personal satisfaction as well :P )

I personally don't know of even one GOOD reason to turn down Harvard for any other school. But, hey, that's just me :D

Right and it's all personal at that point. A lot of people - including me - are turned off by Harvard's large class size. I also have preconceived notions about Harvard that are largely negative (stemming mainly from UG), but again, that's just me. Oh, also, the weather.

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TheLuckyOne
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby TheLuckyOne » Fri Dec 25, 2009 1:17 pm

crackberry wrote:
TheLuckyOne wrote:
crackberry wrote:
TheLuckyOne wrote:I wouldn't trade Harvard for any school or any amount of money, and the only school that would be able to lure me from YS is Columbia.

I've heard from multiple sources that distinguishing oneself at Harvard (graduating near the very top of the class) is more valuable than any placement at Yale or Stanford. Unfortunately, only about 20 out of 550 kids per year can do that, so your odds aren't that good. Graduating below-median at Harvard is probably worse than graduating below-median at Yale or Stanford.


I'd say it's more about personal satisfaction than anything. Oh and I don't care even if I graduate in the bottom 5% (though I think graduating at least in the top 50% would be a matter of personal satisfaction as well :P )

I personally don't know of even one GOOD reason to turn down Harvard for any other school. But, hey, that's just me :D

Right and it's all personal at that point. A lot of people - including me - are turned off by Harvard's large class size. I also have preconceived notions about Harvard that are largely negative (stemming mainly from UG), but again, that's just me. Oh, also, the weather.


Haha, see, I don't even care about the class size, though, the weather in California is definitely something to consider....hmmm...nah.. I vote for H :P

traficante
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby traficante » Fri Dec 25, 2009 2:48 pm

heyguys wrote:
underdawg wrote:full ride T10 > HYS imo

bet on yourself a little!

unless your heart's desire is academia, in which case, yale, every time, all the time



I think underdawg is 100% right here. If I had gotten a full Darrow or a Hamilton, there's no way I'd be at YLS right now, and having done a semester there, I don't feel any differently about it now.

In fact, I would almost say that I disagree with underdawg's caveat regarding academia--honestly, nowadays law schools primarily care about publications and joint degrees (in that order). IMO, the primary advantage of Yale is that here they really push the students to publish law review articles and whatnot and require two substantial pieces of writing before you graduate. If you have the discipline and commitment to pursue academia anyway, then I think that any other T10 school would be the same if you were to focus on getting a law review note or two published before you graduate.


This is interesting to me. Do you think the emphasis on publishing, plus self-selection, is sufficient to explain Yale's recent academic placements? I will have a significant second degree and will have publications out of law school, but thus far I've been thinking that if don't get into Yale (but land somewhere else in the top six), my academic opportunities won't be nearly as good.

heyguys
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Re: HYS vs. T10 vs. T20

Postby heyguys » Fri Dec 25, 2009 2:55 pm

traficante wrote:
heyguys wrote:
underdawg wrote:full ride T10 > HYS imo

bet on yourself a little!

unless your heart's desire is academia, in which case, yale, every time, all the time



I think underdawg is 100% right here. If I had gotten a full Darrow or a Hamilton, there's no way I'd be at YLS right now, and having done a semester there, I don't feel any differently about it now.

In fact, I would almost say that I disagree with underdawg's caveat regarding academia--honestly, nowadays law schools primarily care about publications and joint degrees (in that order). IMO, the primary advantage of Yale is that here they really push the students to publish law review articles and whatnot and require two substantial pieces of writing before you graduate. If you have the discipline and commitment to pursue academia anyway, then I think that any other T10 school would be the same if you were to focus on getting a law review note or two published before you graduate.


This is interesting to me. Do you think the emphasis on publishing, plus self-selection, is sufficient to explain Yale's recent academic placements? I will have a significant second degree and will have publications out of law school, but thus far I've been thinking that if don't get into Yale (but land somewhere else in the top six), my academic opportunities won't be nearly as good.


The Yale name will help in terms of networking and whatnot, but the market for legal academics has changed substantially in the last 5-10 years. In the past, the formula for academia was generally: 1) go to HYS, preferably YLS, 2) make law review, 3) get a big-name clerkship. The reason for this was that hires were based on judgments of prospective intellectual ability.

Now, law schools are looking to hire people that they see as having a distinct vision of their career interests and a rigorous sense of how their research agenda will progress. Going to Yale helps because they actively help their students shape this agenda (similarly, a Ph.D. will help in this regard for obvious reasons), but there is definitely also a sense that the Yale name will carry a bit as well. That said, I can't imagine that the Harvard or Stanford names will help you any more than Columbia, NYU, or Chicago would.

Ultimately, there are no 'prerequisites' anymore beyond publications and a coherent research agenda.




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