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 Post subject: LR/LG Bibles Recommended for Retakers?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:50 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:42 pm
Archived Posts: 84
Looking for some advice on the best way to prepare for an LSAT retake. I have already taken the LSAT, but got stuck on an RC passage and screwed up that section. (Note to self: work on psychological prep!)

I have already taken a Test Masters course and a year ago did almost all PT's to prepare for the December LSAT. I am now preparing to retake, and have started working with the LR and LG Bibles since I didn't read those the last time and they seem to be highly praised here on TLS.

But my question is - are those workbooks worth my time if I've already prepared for the LSAT once? Or are they more just resources for beginners) My PT's have been solid - I'm just trying to break the 170 limit on my retake and focusing on getting back into the LSAT groove for this December's test. I used to PT in the low 170's, but I have just starting re-prepping and my last PT was a 160 (bomb! - I think it was simply due to my endurance level being down after a year without practice - trying to get "back in shape.")

What is the best way to re-prep in this situation? And am I wasting my time with the LR/LG Bibles? And any specific advice on acing the RC section?


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 Post subject: Re: LR/LG Bibles Recommended for Retakers?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:02 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:53 pm
Archived Posts: 39
I would advise you to stay away from a completely new strategy than the one you have already developed. The best way to build endurance is by doing real full timed sections.


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 Post subject: Re: LR/LG Bibles Recommended for Retakers?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:49 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:42 pm
Archived Posts: 84
Some people say that you benefit from reading the other company's materials bc you can pick the other method if you think it's more useful to you personally. So far, I've only gone through the LG Bible. It's somewhat useful just as a review for what I learned in Test Masters. I just started the LR Bible last night, so I can't say yet if I think that will be any help because I'm not too familiar with it yet- - anybody out there find LR Bible methods more helpful than another company - specifically test masters?

In summary, I was looking to find other methods/information/practice unbeknownst to me since I had never read it and everyone claims it's the best source. If I won't find anything useful in it, I will move on to PT's. Now I am just using both resources as a warmup and a means to cover all the bases.

Basically, will I learn anything new from taking all this time?


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 Post subject: Re: LR/LG Bibles Recommended for Retakers?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:31 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:21 pm
Archived Posts: 688
Mall_cop$ wrote:
Forget books and "methods." Take PTs, all of them, and review questions extensively. You're getting the score that the "methods" will help you get. Beyond that, you need to figure out the rest on your own. At least this is the case for me, and yes, I'm in a similar situation. I'm pissed at myself for wasting so much time "mastering the methods." Doing PTs is where the real learning happens.

I basically agree with this. Once you've got your LG technique down, just read a book on informal logic if you want more study time. Thorough review of PTs is the best way to get the LSAT under control.


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 Post subject: Re: LR/LG Bibles Recommended for Retakers?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:32 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:53 pm
Archived Posts: 39
Mall_cop$ wrote:
Forget books and "methods." Take PTs, all of them, and review questions extensively. You're getting the score that the "methods" will help you get. Beyond that, you need to figure out the rest on your own. At least this is the case for me, and yes, I'm in a similar situation. I'm pissed at myself for wasting so much time "mastering the methods." Doing PTs is where the real learning happens.


I totally agree.


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 Post subject: Re: LR/LG Bibles Recommended for Retakers?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:43 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:22 pm
Archived Posts: 746
http://lsatblog.blogspot.com/2009/01/st ... tests.html


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 Post subject: Re: LR/LG Bibles Recommended for Retakers?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:49 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:00 pm
Archived Posts: 1176
I somewhat disagree. it depends. If you weren't doing PTs and only focusing on strategies then yes, but if after doing tones of PTs you are retaking, that's a sure sign there is something inherently wrong with your approach.

OP, I don't know if it's worth to go over bibles. You need to provide more info for us to make educated suggestions.

Also, I don't see how it could hurt.


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 Post subject: Re: LR/LG Bibles Recommended for Retakers?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:30 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:00 pm
Archived Posts: 1176
Mall_cop$ wrote:
TheLuckyOne wrote:
OP, I don't know if it's worth to go over bibles. You need to provide more info for us to make educated suggestions. Also, I don't see how it could hurt.


He claimed to be PTing in the low 170s. What would reading the bibles do for him? I'm not being sarcastic because I'm in a (somewhat) similar situation, and I've read those books so many freaking times that they need duck tape just to stay together, so if I'm missing something, I'd love to hear it.


Usually when someone claims to be PTing in 170s, this means scores fluctuate at 167-171 range, let alone cheating (adding a second here and there, disregarding a bad game, or a hard passage).

Also, sometimes mostof the mistakes might come from one section or the same question type. The other thing is that sometimes after taking lots of PTs without actually honing techniques for attacking some question types (especially when answer choices a tricky) a person forgets that there are these and those gimmicks that might actually be handy.

To recap, it depends. Sometimes it's a waste of time, other times it's really useful. You never know what you disregarded on the first read when you had virtually no clue what to pay attention at.


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 Post subject: Re: LR/LG Bibles Recommended for Retakers?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:04 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:00 pm
Archived Posts: 1176
Mall_cop$ wrote:
What?

So.......if a person is not lying, cheating, and knows the gimmicks. The books are a waste of time? or PTs is a waste of time? Also, listing the missed question types over 10, 20, 30 PTs is not showing an identifiable pattern, so it's difficult to pinpoint.

By the way, if it's not obvious, I'm no longer writing about the OP.


You are most probably missing my point. Reread one more time.


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 Post subject: Re: LR/LG Bibles Recommended for Retakers?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:29 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:31 pm
Archived Posts: 828
redherring! wrote:
Mall_cop$ wrote:
Forget books and "methods." Take PTs, all of them, and review questions extensively. You're getting the score that the "methods" will help you get. Beyond that, you need to figure out the rest on your own. At least this is the case for me, and yes, I'm in a similar situation. I'm pissed at myself for wasting so much time "mastering the methods." Doing PTs is where the real learning happens.


I totally agree.


I mostly agree with this. But, you do not need to figure it out for yourself. This is the main reason I created my explanation database. For people in this range who are looking for different material - material that is designed for students who want to improve up into the mid-170s (or higher) - you really need to think about the logic rather than the gimmicks. This is a big hole in the prep market and it is the one my database fills. (And just because they have a couple of chapters on logic, do not be fooled into thinking anyone at any of the Big Four companies has any idea about what this exam is designed to test nor how it accomplishes it. They do not. They are all about gimmicks to get correct responses somewhat over half the time).

After a prep test, if you sit and read through my explanations, you will learn dozens of new things from each practice exam that none of the Big Four has taught you. (But, you should read through the explanations for the questions you got right as well as the ones you got wrong. There are hints and tips throughout that are relevant across many questions.) You will learn to look at the exam the way it is understood and attacked by the people who get the top scores rather than by the clowns who create the gimmicks. (You can read through my posts over the years and see how I look at/explain the exam.) No matter how you accomplish it, you cannot jump into the top 2% without looking at the exam this way. Now you no longer have to figure it out for yourself. My database will help you. And, I think the price is very reasonable for what amounts to almost 1500 pages of material (if printed out).

One more point during my plug. Looking at the exam this way is also very helpful for those with lesser goals. My students with lower aspirations usually end up increasing their goals once they realize how much easier this exam is when you look at it the right way. The logic is far simpler than the gimmicks and will also benefit you in law school and practice. (Meanwhile, the people who learn the gimmicks - and their instructors - are still trying to figure out how and why this exam is relevant to law school and claiming that it is not. Maybe it is because they just do not get it?)


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 Post subject: Re: LR/LG Bibles Recommended for Retakers?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:34 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:00 pm
Archived Posts: 1176
LSAT All Star wrote:
redherring! wrote:
Mall_cop$ wrote:
Forget books and "methods." Take PTs, all of them, and review questions extensively. You're getting the score that the "methods" will help you get. Beyond that, you need to figure out the rest on your own. At least this is the case for me, and yes, I'm in a similar situation. I'm pissed at myself for wasting so much time "mastering the methods." Doing PTs is where the real learning happens.


I totally agree.


I mostly agree with this. But, you do not need to figure it out for yourself. This is the main reason I created my explanation database. For people in this range who are looking for different material - material that is designed for students who want to improve up into the mid-170s (or higher) - you really need to think about the logic rather than the gimmicks. This is a big hole in the prep market and it is the one my database fills. (And just because they have a couple of chapters on logic, do not be fooled into thinking anyone at any of the Big Four companies has any idea about what this exam is designed to test nor how it accomplishes it. They do not. They are all about gimmicks to get correct responses somewhat over half the time).

After a prep test, if you sit and read through my explanations, you will learn dozens of new things from each practice exam that none of the Big Four has taught you. (But, you should read through the explanations for the questions you got right as well as the ones you got wrong. There are hints and tips throughout that are relevant across many questions.) You will learn to look at the exam the way it is understood and attacked by the people who get the top scores rather than by the clowns who create the gimmicks. (You can read through my posts over the years and see how I look at/explain the exam.) No matter how you accomplish it, you cannot jump into the top 2% without looking at the exam this way. Now you no longer have to figure it out for yourself. My database will help you. And, I think the price is very reasonable for what amounts to almost 1500 pages of material (if printed out).

One more point during my plug. Looking at the exam this way is also very helpful for those with lesser goals. My students with lower aspirations usually end up increasing their goals once they realize how much easier this exam is when you look at it the right way. The logic is far simpler than the gimmicks and will also benefit you in law school and practice. (Meanwhile, the people who learn the gimmicks - and their instructors - are still trying to figure out how and why this exam is relevant to law school and claiming that it is not. Maybe it is because they just do not get it?)


Bibles are not only about gimmicks!


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 Post subject: Re: LR/LG Bibles Recommended for Retakers?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:45 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:31 pm
Archived Posts: 828
TheLuckyOne wrote:
Bibles are not only about gimmicks!


No. But the little they have about actual logic has very little to do with the LSAT. They have copied it out of logic texts. What do they teach about - 80 something different types of flaws? LSAC does not test 80 something different types of flaws. Plus, some of the things they call logic are not really how they are learned in terms of logic. For example, a conditional statement does not have two conditions. It has a condition and a consequent. LSAT theologists do not even know what a consequent is. It is never mentioned in the bible. That leaves their followers missing a great LSAT tool. They have no clue what skill the RC section is meant to test. So, they make up that complicated nonsense as a way for people to get through three out of four passages and do well on the questions. Some people with exceptional skill and/or talent can work with the bibles and get further on their own. But, it is not because of the bibles. It is in spite of them.

One of the most tested logical concepts on the LSAT is that you cannot reach a conclusion from a mere correlation. Yet, the bible students constantly make that exact logical flaw in their claims on this forum all the time as does the company. Makes you wonder how well they are really being taught any logic.


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 Post subject: Re: LR/LG Bibles Recommended for Retakers?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:02 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:00 pm
Archived Posts: 1176
LSAT All Star wrote:
TheLuckyOne wrote:
Bibles are not only about gimmicks!


No. But the little they have about actual logic has very little to do with the LSAT. They have copied it out of logic texts. What do they teach about - 80 something different types of flaws? LSAC does not test 80 something different types of flaws. Plus, some of the things they call logic are not really how they are learned in terms of logic. For example, a conditional statement does not have two conditions. It has a condition and a consequent. LSAT theologists do not even know what a consequent is. It is never mentioned in the bible. That leaves their followers missing a great LSAT tool. They have no clue what skill the RC section is meant to test. So, they make up that complicated nonsense as a way for people to get through three out of four passages and do well on the questions. Some people with exceptional skill and/or talent can work with the bibles and get further on their own. But, it is not because of the bibles. It is in spite of them.

One of the most tested logical concepts on the LSAT is that you cannot reach a conclusion from a mere correlation. Yet, the bible students constantly make that exact logical flaw in their claims on this forum all the time as does the company. Makes you wonder how well they are really being taught any logic.


All Star, while I somewhat agree with your point, you are bashing PS for not being too complicated when it doesn't have to be this way. Who cares what they call it a consequent or conditional, they idea is to make it simple for those who are not willing to read and learn books on logic and have never read one. It's like blaming them for calling "argumentum ad ignoratiam" simply "the author doesn't aknowledge that something not proven doesn't mean false". You are making false and unwarranted accusations here.

Also, as far as I know they don't teach 80 something flaws, and even if they did, so what? reading books on flaws helped me recognize them better.

Just to clarify: I didn't say that bibles will get someone from 168 to 174, all I'm saying is that, sometimes, depending on weak areas and stuff, it might be useful to look through LRB, and if these top scorers still make mistakes in LG section, that's where LGB is VERY handy. I've never read the RCB, so I cannot comment.

Just because you don't agree with PS on certain aspects, it doesn't make them inferior.


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 Post subject: Re: LR/LG Bibles Recommended for Retakers?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:09 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:31 pm
Archived Posts: 828
Mall_cop$ wrote:
LSAT All Star wrote:
Database

Where and how do I access this? PM me, if you're looking for $$.


Just go to my website:

allstartestprep@yahoo.com

and click on Our Products on the menu.

My students love it. Maybe one or two of my former students will comment. I do not know. For the most part, once I get them they do not spend much time on the forum. (They communicate their questions directly to me). No one has ever retaken. (Although one guy is considering it. He went from the mid-160s to 178 once he started using my material. But, he was mad because he missed some questions he really should not have. He is considering trying for a 180. I am trying to talk him out of it. I do not think there is anything to be gained.)

I am not sure of the exact figures, but if 100,000K people every year take the exam, only 2000 end up with scores in the top 2%. Since it seems as though almost half of them must visit this forum at some point, my students do not generally like to give their best tip (me) to the direct and limited competition.

I had another student who maxed out on his Bible techniques in the high 160s (which was pretty good). But, he really wanted to go to Northwestern. He used my database and we did a few hours of tutoring via Skype. He nailed a 177. He is not retaking.

Another student (the one that posted a comment about my material last month that some people accused me of writing) is a police officer. Using the gimmicks he could not get beyond the low to mid 150s. (The gimmicks just were not working for him - that happens to some people who are certainly smart enough to do much better using the logic). He was looking for some help to get into the upper 150s so he could go to a real law school. He had no where else to turn and he had read my posts, so he bought my stuff. He nailed a 166 in June 09. Now he gets to go to a very good law school. He had to change his entire career plans. It did not upset him.

I am not making any of this up. I could go on and on, but I won't. Hopefully through the course of several hundred posts I have written over the past few years, you can see I am not much of a conman. I am much more direct and I like to have my credibility. And, I am certainly not selling my credibility for a measly $40. Believe me, I would have to sell a whole lot more of these than the number of potential students this board has before I could even dream about getting rich enough from this to make me a sell-out.


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 Post subject: Re: LR/LG Bibles Recommended for Retakers?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:20 pm 

Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:06 pm
Archived Posts: 50
LSAT All Star wrote:
Mall_cop$ wrote:
LSAT All Star wrote:
Database

Where and how do I access this? PM me, if you're looking for $$.


Just go to my website:

allstartestprep@yahoo.com

and click on Our Products on the menu.

My students love it. Maybe one or two of my former students will comment. I do not know. For the most part, once I get them they do not spend much time on the forum. (They communicate their questions directly to me). No one has ever retaken. (Although one guy is considering it. He went from the mid-160s to 178 once he started using my material. But, he was mad because he missed some questions he really should not have. He is considering trying for a 180. I am trying to talk him out of it. I do not think there is anything to be gained.)

I am not sure of the exact figures, but if 100,000K people every year take the exam, only 2000 end up with scores in the top 2%. Since it seems as though almost half of them must visit this forum at some point, my students do not generally like to give their best tip (me) to the direct and limited competition.

I had another student who maxed out on his Bible techniques in the high 160s (which was pretty good). But, he really wanted to go to Northwestern. He used my database and we did a few hours of tutoring via Skype. He nailed a 177. He is not retaking.

Another student (the one that posted a comment about my material last month that some people accused me of writing) is a police officer. Using the gimmicks he could not get beyond the low to mid 150s. (The gimmicks just were not working for him - that happens to some people who are certainly smart enough to do much better using the logic). He was looking for some help to get into the upper 150s so he could go to a real law school. He had no where else to turn and he had read my posts, so he bought my stuff. He nailed a 166 in June 09. Now he gets to go to a very good law school. He had to change his entire career plans. It did not upset him.

I am not making any of this up. I could go on and on, but I won't. Hopefully through the course of several hundred posts I have written over the past few years, you can see I am not much of a conman. I am much more direct and I like to have my credibility. And, I am certainly not selling my credibility for a measly $40. Believe me, I would have to sell a whole lot more of these than the number of potential students this board has before I could even dream about getting rich enough from this to make me a sell-out.


I am currently using LSAT All Star's explanation database and find it helpful. It was worth the $40.00 dollars.


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 Post subject: Re: LR/LG Bibles Recommended for Retakers?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:21 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:31 pm
Archived Posts: 828
TheLuckyOne wrote:
All Star, while I somewhat agree with your point, you are bashing PS for not being too complicated when it doesn't have to be this way. Who cares what they call it a consequent or conditional, they idea is to make it simple for those who are not willing to read and learn books on logic and have never read one. It's like blaming them for calling "argumentum ad ignoratiam" simply "the author doesn't aknowledge that something not proven doesn't mean false". You are making false and unwarranted accusations here.

Also, as far as I know they don't teach 80 something flaws, and even if they did, so what? reading books on flaws helped me recognize them better.

Just to clarify: I didn't say that bibles will get someone from 168 to 174, all I'm saying is that, sometimes, depending on weak areas and stuff, it might be useful to look through LRB, and if these top scorers still make mistakes in LG section, that's where LGB is VERY handy. I've never read the RCB, so I cannot comment.

Just because you don't agree with PS on certain aspects, it doesn't make them inferior.


Do not get me wrong. I do not think the bibles (or the rest of the Big Four) are bad. In fact, they are very good at what they are trying to be good at. The problem is that students do not understand exactly what it is the Big Four are trying to be good at. And, although not dishonest about it, they certainly do not go out of their way to explain the limitations of their methods to their students.

If a student has limited time to prep and/or is merely looking for the upper 150s/lower 160s; the Big Four is certainly the way to go. (PS bibles for self-learners, classes for those who need to be force-fed). The problem is that since these companies dominate the market, students think those methods (which are all far more similar to each other than different) are all there is. (Or, beyond that, they must figure it out on their own - as the early replies in this thread stated). I just wanted people to know there is a third option that I specifically created to fill this gap and I think it does a pretty good job of it for a very reasonable price.


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 Post subject: Re: LR/LG Bibles Recommended for Retakers?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:40 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:00 pm
Archived Posts: 1176
LSAT All Star wrote:
TheLuckyOne wrote:
All Star, while I somewhat agree with your point, you are bashing PS for not being too complicated when it doesn't have to be this way. Who cares what they call it a consequent or conditional, they idea is to make it simple for those who are not willing to read and learn books on logic and have never read one. It's like blaming them for calling "argumentum ad ignoratiam" simply "the author doesn't aknowledge that something not proven doesn't mean false". You are making false and unwarranted accusations here.

Also, as far as I know they don't teach 80 something flaws, and even if they did, so what? reading books on flaws helped me recognize them better.

Just to clarify: I didn't say that bibles will get someone from 168 to 174, all I'm saying is that, sometimes, depending on weak areas and stuff, it might be useful to look through LRB, and if these top scorers still make mistakes in LG section, that's where LGB is VERY handy. I've never read the RCB, so I cannot comment.

Just because you don't agree with PS on certain aspects, it doesn't make them inferior.


Do not get me wrong. I do not think the bibles (or the rest of the Big Four) are bad. In fact, they are very good at what they are trying to be good at. The problem is that students do not understand exactly what it is the Big Four are trying to be good at. And, although not dishonest about it, they certainly do not go out of their way to explain the limitations of their methods to their students.

If a student has limited time to prep and/or is merely looking for the upper 150s/lower 160s; the Big Four is certainly the way to go. (PS bibles for self-learners, classes for those who need to be force-fed). The problem is that since these companies dominate the market, students think those methods (which are all far more similar to each other than different) are all there is. (Or, beyond that, they must figure it out on their own - as the early replies in this thread stated). I just wanted people to know there is a third option that I specifically created to fill this gap and I think it does a pretty good job of it for a very reasonable price.


I don't know what your price is, but by the same token one can hire a private tutor (I assume here that s/he will be good) for a very acceptable price ($25-50 per hour) and have him/her figuring everything out instead.

Anyway, there is no point of proving each other what is good or bad. I really believe that your methods are great and that are very beneficial for students, just don't bash PS at least because they are (I would say) the only ones on the market who were willing to disclose very useful knowledge for a very cheap price, if not for free (we know what I'm talking about) and they are great. In fact, LGB is invaluable.


Last edited by TheLuckyOne on Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: LR/LG Bibles Recommended for Retakers?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:42 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:31 pm
Archived Posts: 828
Mall_cop$ wrote:
LSAT All Star wrote:


Thx, I'll check it out. you might want to change the email address.... spiders looking to SPAM stock tips and erectile dysfunction medication.


Sorry I screwed up a little. The website is allstartestprep.com. As you realized, the other is our e-mail address.


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 Post subject: Re: LR/LG Bibles Recommended for Retakers?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:55 pm 

Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 9:40 pm
Archived Posts: 2074
LSAT All Star wrote:
Mall_cop$ wrote:
LSAT All Star wrote:


Thx, I'll check it out. you might want to change the email address.... spiders looking to SPAM stock tips and erectile dysfunction medication.


Sorry I screwed up a little. The website is allstartestprep.com. As you realized, the other is our e-mail address.


How are your explanations different then kaplan? Just a comparison, b/c kaplan has answers for ALL of the preptests.


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 Post subject: Re: LR/LG Bibles Recommended for Retakers?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:59 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:31 pm
Archived Posts: 828
TheLuckyOne wrote:
I don't know what your price is, but by the same token one can hire a private tutor (I assume here that s/he will be good) for a very acceptable price ($25-50 per hour) and have him/her figuring everything out instead.

Anyway, there is no point of proving each other what is good or bad. I really believe that your methods are great and that are very beneficial for students, just don't bash PS at least because they are (I would say) the only ones on the market who were willing to disclose very useful knowledge for a very cheap price, if not for free (we know what I'm talking about) and they are great. In fact, LGB is invaluable.


No doubt about the tutor as long as you can find one who understands the material at that level and can teach it - which is definitely not true of all high scorers. However, most tutors just repeat what the learned from the bibles and/or in classes. Even they do not know there is more to this exam.

As far as the price, that is my second point. I have been teaching (the LSAT and otherwise) for a very long time and I am good at it. So, instead of paying $25-50/hr for post-exam review with a tutor, you can do the review with all my thoughts for the price of about one hour's worth of tutoring. (In that sense, I am to tutoring what you say PS is to LSAT prep).

As far as the LGB being invaluable, again, it depends on your goal. Their methods are very time consuming - both to learn and to use. If a person thinks they are not bright enough to think their way through the games and needs a method to memorize form diagrams and time-consuming answering methods, then PS (or any of the others) is certainly the way to go. But, even they do not deny (in fact, they used to admit it in their materials) their goal is to help students get through three of the four games with no critical thinking and no mistakes. (In fact, even though they no longer directly state this as a goal, their methods have not changed from when they used to admit it). You can go though numerous post on this forum and have students tell you they did not really get the games done completely and correctly until they figured out what parts of the Big Four systems to discard.


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 Post subject: Re: LR/LG Bibles Recommended for Retakers?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:02 pm 

Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 9:40 pm
Archived Posts: 2074
LSAT All Star wrote:
TheLuckyOne wrote:
I don't know what your price is, but by the same token one can hire a private tutor (I assume here that s/he will be good) for a very acceptable price ($25-50 per hour) and have him/her figuring everything out instead.

Anyway, there is no point of proving each other what is good or bad. I really believe that your methods are great and that are very beneficial for students, just don't bash PS at least because they are (I would say) the only ones on the market who were willing to disclose very useful knowledge for a very cheap price, if not for free (we know what I'm talking about) and they are great. In fact, LGB is invaluable.


No doubt about the tutor as long as you can find one who understands the material at that level and can teach it - which is definitely not true of all high scorers. However, most tutors just repeat what the learned from the bibles and/or in classes. Even they do not know there is more to this exam.

As far as the price, that is my second point. I have been teaching (the LSAT and otherwise) for a very long time and I am good at it. So, instead of paying $25-50/hr for post-exam review with a tutor, you can do the review with all my thoughts for the price of about one hour's worth of tutoring. (In that sense, I am to tutoring what you say PS is to LSAT prep).

As far as the LGB being invaluable, again, it depends on your goal. Their methods are very time consuming - both to learn and to use. If a person thinks they are not bright enough to think their way through the games and needs a method to memorize form diagrams and time-consuming answering methods, then PS (or any of the others) is certainly the way to go. But, even they do not deny (in fact, they used to admit it in their materials) their goal is to help students get through three of the four games with no critical thinking and no mistakes. (In fact, even though they no longer directly state this as a goal, their methods have not changed from when they used to admit it). You can go though numerous post on this forum and have students tell you they did not really get the games done completely and correctly until they figured out what parts of the Big Four systems to discard.


I'm actually VERY curious about your methods. I scored above a 170, b/c for the most part, I felt that I did every PT and taught myself the LSAT logic, distancing myself from the bibles (they were a good starting point). But how do you approach LG "differently?" or with "critical thinking?"


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 Post subject: Re: LR/LG Bibles Recommended for Retakers?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:02 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:00 pm
Archived Posts: 1176
Mall_cop$ wrote:
I think you're missing the point. Powerscore is great. I like them so much, I've bought everything they have ever printed, everything, and I've taken their class, twice. Seriously. But, their "methods or gimmicks" are not going to help you get the last few points.

For example, learning an assumption negation technique is not going to take you from a 178 to a 180. At some point, the material is mastered, and as I said earlier, to get to the next level, you need more than the bibles (PS that is). If the person is scoring in the 170s (without cheating, lying, or not knowing the gimmicks), then it's clear the person knows the info, but now must focus on execution.


no, YOU are missing the point. I've NEVER said PS bibles or any kind of gimmicks would get someone 180! I don't think that I'm using any of these myself, but that was not my point. There are very many factors that contribute to one's poor or great performance, and unless one identifies the REAL issue, s/he is unlikely to break into 175+


LSAT All Star wrote:

As far as the LGB being invaluable, again, it depends on your goal. Their methods are very time consuming - both to learn and to use. If a person thinks they are not bright enough to think their way through the games and needs a method to memorize form diagrams and time-consuming answering methods, then PS (or any of the others) is certainly the way to go. But, even they do not deny (in fact, they used to admit it in their materials) their goal is to help students get through three of the four games with no critical thinking and no mistakes. (In fact, even though they no longer directly state this as a goal, their methods have not changed from when they used to admit it). You can go though numerous post on this forum and have students tell you they did not really get the games done completely and correctly until they figured out what parts of the Big Four systems to discard.


maybe I'm just a wierdo, but I didn't find any of LGB techniques complicated or too time consuming (you actually don't need to memorize any diagrams or whether the game is grouping or sequencing, just how to make the right inferences) . First I started with half wrong and was able to finish 2 games at best. after reading the bible I moved to -4 in a week, doesn't sound like too much time to me.


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 Post subject: Re: LR/LG Bibles Recommended for Retakers?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:23 pm 

Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 9:40 pm
Archived Posts: 2074
Mall_cop$ wrote:
lawlover829 wrote:
bibles (they were a good starting point). But how do you approach LG "differently?" or with "critical thinking?"


This is exactly where I'm at. The bibles are an awesome starting point and a great finishing point (165-170), but they are not going to, for lack of creativity, win the race (175-180). Unfortunately, I just figured this out over the last few days.

The LGB is, for me, sufficient to learn the basics. But doing the games a billion times crystallizes the process. You can read it a thousand times, but it's not going to do anything for you unless you practice the games from the PTs.

Often I wonder if I'd be at the same point where I am now, if I dropped all the prep-test company stuff and focused on the material. My bank account would have a few grand more in it. Honestly, I bought all this crap as a "quicker" way to master the test.


Here is the deal: Those books are designed to get peeps thru the test. Knowing how to attack the problem saves timeing/gets you used to the lsat. Doing each question over and over again and venturing out on your own is the key to outsmarting the LSAT. It's teaching yourself a new way of thinking. In this way LSAT ALL STAR is correct. I am curious, however, about his/her method. Please do not take any offense about this LSAT All star :) I'm just really curious about how you do things differently then other companies.


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 Post subject: Re: LR/LG Bibles Recommended for Retakers?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:51 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:00 pm
Archived Posts: 1176
Mall_cop$ wrote:
TheLuckyOne wrote:
no, YOU are missing the point. I've NEVER said PS bibles or any kind of gimmicks would get someone 180! I don't think that I'm using any of these myself, but that was not my point. There are very many factors that contribute to one's poor or great performance, and unless one identifies the REAL issue, s/he is unlikely to break into 175+


Look, I'm not sure what's wrong with you, so I'm going to let this go.... right after this. I did not claim that you said the PS bibles would get someone a 180. Jesus, the LSAT does have a reading comprehension section.

Did you read the guys original post? The guy was scoring in the 170s. He asked for advice. In my opinion, I felt the bibles are not going to do anything to help him beyond what actual preptesting can do since he's testing in the 170s.

You disagreed because "If ... weren't doing PTs and only focusing on strategies" then yes. You must have missed where he wrote he "did almost all PT's to prepare". Since he did all the PTs, you suggest "that's a sure sign there is something inherently wrong with your approach." I disagree. He was testing in the low 170. It's not an "inherently wrong...approach." It a problem with execution.

After I pointed out to you that he was testing in the 170s, you claim "Usually when someone...PTing in 170s, this means scores fluctuate at 167-171 range, let alone cheating " and then, you added "a person forgets that there are these and those gimmicks that might actually be handy." Like I said, a gimmick is not going to take you from a 175 to 180.

Is this hard?


WTF?

Smartass, I don't feel like typing everything out just to explain you anything, so I'll let it go. But just so you know, that only because someone hits 170 doesn't mean his/her minus 10 doesn't come from the inherent flaw in approaching certain section or question type.


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 Post subject: Re: LR/LG Bibles Recommended for Retakers?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:56 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:31 pm
Archived Posts: 828
lawlover829 wrote:
How are your explanations different then kaplan? Just a comparison, b/c kaplan has answers for ALL of the preptests.


In my mind, there are several differences.

First, and I do not know if this is going to come out right, but when I read a Kaplan explanation, I feel as though they already know the correct response and are explaining why it is correct. That is nice, but that is not what you have to accomplish during an exam. In fact, it is the opposite. Their explanations never tell you how to look at it from the direction you need to look at it when taking an exam - not knowing the correct response beforehand. That is an entirely different thought process. That is how I try to look at the questions in my explanations - the same direction you are doing it during an exam. I start with explaining the logic behind an argument. I go through the response options A to E (for the vast majority of my explanations) and write what I would be thinking about it at that moment in time. I always write my explanations before I look up the correct response so I do not poison my thinking.

In addition, many times they do not get it right when explaining why an incorrect response is incorrect. Nobody knows they are wrong because, they are right about it being incorrect. (That happens a lot in explanations in this forum also). Learning why incorrect responses are incorrect is as important to this exam as learning why correct ones are correct. The students have no idea how often the explanations get these wrong. (That happens a lot in explanations in this forum also). Even many they get right, they are not complete enough about. I have read lots of complaints from Kaplan students (and others about their sources) that many times an incorrect response is alleged to be "outside the scope" of the argument. While that may well be correct, it does not teach anything. I have tried to make it a point in all my explanations, that, if I write that a response option is outside the scope of the argument, I always say why. (This regards the issue of relevance. Students who are hung-up thinking this exam is about question types do not understand that relevance is the most tested logical issue on a LSAT. They do not get it because there are no questions directly about it. But, it is. It underlies the structure of the entire exam. Learning relevance is something many of my students have commented about. There is no other concept you can learn that will add more points to your score. Yet, it is very hard to create an organized process to teach what is relevant. I think that is one reason the Big Four ignore it - or at least do not focus on it. I have found it is easier to teach what is not relevant. The easiest way to do that is to point out why thousands of response options are irrelevant. That is another thing my explanations try to accomplish for you.)

Some other times I feel as though they came up with the correct response through some type of premonition. It is like they already know the correct response beforehand. A good example is many times they pre-phrase an expected correct response to a weakening question. Then, hallelujah, the one they pre-phrased is among the choices. It is very unlikely anybody could accomplish that during an exam. LSAC uses too many ways to weaken an argument for someone to accurately predict the correct response to such questions. But, they never tell you why they pre-phrased that particular response from among all the possibilities. It is uncanny how they keep doing this (but I bet it has something to do with the fact they have an answer sheet in front of them when they write their explanations). But, they never tell you why they pre-phrased that particular response. In addition, as I wrote earlier, this is not how you have to do it on test day. You have to understand the argument and know what types of things will weaken it. Then, you find one of them amongst the response options. That is how I explain them.

As far as games, I think my explanation have two big advantages. First, my diagramming method is far simpler than anybody else's. I cannot take credit for inventing it. It is the method puzzle people have been using for these type games for decades. But, unlike the Big Four, I am not concerned with creating a system I can claim as my intellectual property. I am just a guy who writes explanations. Plus, my diagrams do not rely on memorizing patterns. They involve looking at and understanding the qualities of the conditions and restrictions (that nasty thing called thinking that the Big Four are trying to avoid). It takes very little to realize the advantages to this system. (That is why it has been in use far longer than LSAT prep companies have existed). In fact, again,you can read this in many posts in the forum, the best game scores usually figure this out on their own.

The second advantage is understanding how to go about figuring out the correct response to AR questions. As far as Kaplan, they are way too into hypotheticals. They are very inefficient. (It is part of the system that is designed to get you thriugh three of the games without too much thinking). I do not have a comprehensive program for this. But, after you complete an exam, if you read though how I figured out the correct responses, you will learn tons.

None of the prep companies has a clue in the world about reading comp. It is designed to test a skill they have never learned and they do not have. Lawyers read differently than other people. There are no lawyers at any of the prep companies. The Kaplans were teachers (I believe). Robin did not get through law school. The guy from PS just used Robin's ideas and Blueprint just stole them. I do not know about Princeton except they sucked 15 years ago - the last time I was familiar with their product. (By the way, when I write "Big Four," I do not count Blueprint. They are merely a subset of Testmasters.) You can read many of my posts in this forum about this issue (how to handle reading comp). My explanations go along with those thoughts.

Anyway, thanks for asking.


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