PM'd you.

Fordham has a massive NYC self selection problem... nobody wants to leave! 96% of last year's entering class indicated that the NYC market was their first choice. There are graduates working on the west coast, though mainly in LA, San Francisco, and Palo Alto. Legal hiring is a largely local affair outside the very top schools; it will be easier for you to find a Seattle job in you go to UW. Can you go from Fordham to Seattle? Probably yes, but the school's specialty is placing students in NYC. There are fewer Fordham alumni practicing in Seattle, so more of the footwork will fall upon you if you want to make it happen. If you are considering starting your career in NYC, it's quite possible to make the move out west once you have a few years of experience.

I somewhat agree. If you want to stay in Seattle, go to UW. But, if T-14 is a viable option, what draws you to Fordham? I'm a Fordham 1L but spent the last 7 years in Seattle for undergrad and my subsequent career. You question whether it is a matter of name recognition or interest in the region; I think it is both. I worked with a number of law firms in the PNW area and can tell you that a Fordham degree doesn't carry much weight. Do you have connections?

Warning: It can be upsetting, as a Seattleite, getting into Fordham and spreading the news only to hear "Fordham? Where is that?"

If you want to be in the Northwest, or anywhere in the west really, and don't get into the T14 or UW, you would be much better off with one of the T1 schools in CA rather than Fordham, Maybe even U of Oregon or Seattle U. Fordham has zero name recognition among lay people out here, which does matter especially for small firms since they want there clients to see that their attorneys are from local or well known national schools. I would be willing to bet that even a lot of attorneys in the west, especially older ones, don't realize that Fordham is a good law school.

This is the case in most secondary markets. Fordham is known in San Francisco and LA, but in smaller markets, it's better to be from a local school, even one that's slightly lower ranked. The interesting thing about Fordham is that it really is a school on the rise. 25 years ago, St. John's was the NYC #3.

So Opera, you'd definitely recommend applying PT if your numbers are below both the medians for FT, right.
How different is the PT class from FT. And how common is moving into the FT class later?
thanks

Thanks for the advice OS, jcl2, and OFO. If anything, your advice has made me rethink my priorities as to whether or not staying in Seattle is that important to me (as opposed to limiting my options).
I went to Wash U Undergrad, so I certainly don't want to go to a school that only has power in a small area (NY, obviously not a small area) though. There are few things more annoying than having to explain where you school is and that it is actually a fairly good school.

Thanks again OS. Fordham's dean should pay you a salary since you are better than advertising (and certainly better than random emails).

LOL, you are sweet. I would totally try for a job in the admissions office if I wasn't worried about study time.

To superflush:

That is my recommendation. It's exactly what I did myself. I'm friends with a lot of FT students, but I can honestly say that people are really cool in both programs. The feel is a little bit different, because there are more commuting students in PT, but I was really, really shocked by how young people are. If the median age is over 25, I would be pretty shocked. Most of these kids seem to be 1-3 years out of UG, as I am. There are special events for PT students, often featuring free pizza, and there are law review spots reserved for the people who won't be switching over to day. A lot of people do switch over, though. It's really, really common, and easy to do. Even people with FT jobs often end up quitting when they realize how much work is involved. Also, I would estimate that no more than 50% of PT students hold 9-5 day jobs. As the year goes on, more and more people quit their jobs to focus on studying.

I love the PT program, because I'm a night person anyway. I basically study all night, then sleep til noon on days when I don't have my internship or student meetings. It's really flexible, and I'm very happy to be an evening student. If it didn't require an extra year of cost of living expenses, I don't know that I would switch.

OperaSoprano, thank you for creating and hosting this great thread. It has inspired me to make my first ever TLS post! You have certainly helped shed some light onto the admissions process into this great LS.

I have always had my eye on this school and am very close to hitting the 'submit' button. Before I do so, I would like to ask you a few questions regarding my personal concerns about the program and my application. If you would, please read my PM to you for such an inquiry.

Thanks again!

So you roughly take 3/4 of the classes as a FT I'm guessing?
Are PTers always evening classes only, or do they eventually take some classes with FT (or would that never work because of jobs?) It seems like if you were a PT that had a flexible job schedule, they'd let you sit in on a day class no? Is an evening class generally 6-8 and then another one from 830 to 10, or is it usually one class per day?

So as a PTer than, are you mostly close with PTs only, or are there a lot of Fordham events for everyone?


I'm not sure if this question was asked, but I'm seeing a lot of t-14 big law panic, especially with Cornell and OCIs. It seems that if t-14s are being hit hard, then Fordham might as well, but Fordham does an excellent job of placing their kids into great careers, so I was wondering if you have heard any whispers from 3Ls or others as to what the job situation is like for Fordham specifically? Hopefully the economy picks up in 3 years and the whole point is moot.

1. You can eventually switch over to FT.
2. Probably not, otherwise many people would want to do that. They likely don't have the seats for that.

FT kids take three substantive classes each semester, plus legal writing and legal research. We take two substantive classes each semester, plus legal writing and legal research. It's still a good amount of work, and I am personally in awe of those of my classmates who manage to do all this in addition to 40 hours of work a week.

We only have one substantive class a night, then legal research (on Monday nights, after Contracts) and legal writing (Thursday nights, after Crim Law.) The latest we are ever in class is 9:40 pm, so there is plenty of time to read after class.

Because of my club memberships (and also due to my activity on TLS), I know a number of FT kids. It might be harder for those working full time during the day to meet FT students, though. People tend to be closest to those in their own section, especially in legal writing, where there are fewer than 20 students per class. Rather than competition, I feel a strong sense of attachment to my classmates. Their success is my success, and this makes the concept of a curve difficult for me personally, because I see firsthand how hard everyone works, and I want to see my friends succeed.

After 1L year, evening students are allowed to take day classes, and vice versa, even if the evening students elect to retain their part time status. I plan to switch over, but continue my practice of taking mostly evening classes. This is what I did in undergrad, and the schedule worked out perfectly for me.

As for OCI, we don't have official numbers, but as you can well imagine, hiring is down everywhere, and Fordham is not immune. I only know a handful of current 3Ls (My LRW TA has a biglaw offer. He is on Law Review, but I don't know his exact GPA). It appears that top students still got offers, but those around median did not get biglaw this year. I don't know where the cutoff was, so I'm waiting for the NLJ's official report, which is compiled by an outside source, and is presumed to be accurate. My hope is that things will be better for our class and the next. If we return to 2005 hiring levels, around 1/3 of the class will place into biglaw, and another 5% or so will go for clerkships (our classmates heavily select for private practice, which I find interesting. I hope to see more Fordham kids go into public interest.)

To superflush: It isn't a huge problem that 2L and 3L PT students are allowed to take day classes on occasion, because most of the people who stay PT actually do have full time jobs. Thus, fewer of them elect to take day classes, and it appears that there is enough space for those that do. For the most part, everyone who is not working (except for a friend of mine who is concurrently a fashion design student at Parsons!) switches over.

Hey OS, Research question for you. Didn't you mention a survey Fordham did this year among entering students to see where they wanted to work? Any chances the results of that survey are in publishable/citable form? Or could you link/post to them there?

There's some free subtle Fordham trolling in it for you.

Fordham does that survey every year, I believe. I don't know if the admissions office publishes it (Dean Brown said the purpose is to measure student interest in regional employment, which can then be shared with employers), but I will do some digging. If it isn't on the Fordham website, DB might be willing to share it for citation in your research. If you PM me with a quick overview of what you are working on right now, I can contact him and ask. Is this part of the transparency project?

Yeah... we have to look at all existing tools for helping students decide on schools before we can dare go about proposing a new one. We've been saying for awhile that no tools really get at self-selection, which leads to prospectives having to make assumptions that may or may not be true. This would go into that discussion where we say that at least some schools attempt to capture where their students want to go... and when a tool compares incoming placement interests with outgoing placement success it gets a lot closer to telling whether students are self-selecting or facing limited choices. I think a lot of schools would benefit from setting up a tool in this manner, particularly where they place very strong in a particular region only to get hit with claims that nobody who wanted to work somewhere else was able to.

We may end up citing to individual school-generated tools anonymously if schools request it, so if that's a concern we can agree not to share the actual information. It's more important to us that we canvass all existing ways in which schools or other actors are attempting to make sense of employment information.

Cool. I will see if the survey has been published anywhere, and if not, I can ask whether Dean Brown is willing to share the results. Can I give him your contact info if I need to get in touch with him?

I do think Fordham's issue genuinely is self selection, though, and not only because I don't want to leave. The survey results, as communicated to me, square with the stated career aims of my friends in the class of 2012. Most of them would leave NYC for the perfect job, but few of them want to.

OS-
Sidenote: I'm a long-time admirer of your moderating work

Now that you've been at Fordham a bit, have you learned any more about what sort of aid packages are around? I am aware of the ones on their website, but it seems like a lot of schools don't talk about the smaller merit aid packages they offer. I know you've mentioned you are borrowing all of it, so excuse me if this is a rude or silly question, but I also know you can understand why I am hoping for something! I am not from NYC and I am in shock over how expensive everything is. Even a little bit of $ would go a long way in convincing me to go there, but it seems like almost no one gets aid to go to Fordham. I have a 3.4x and a 172, and I'll be applying for the FT program.

Thanks for the love!

With your numbers, you will get something. You are correct in noting that Fordham has a small endowment. Around 38% of admitted students get money, and the school tends to be more generous with need based aid. This has been a problem in the past, since other T30s can afford to buy students away, and Fordham can't really match scholarships. We don't have that much, but we do a lot with it!

Given your numbers, you are likely looking at $15-$20k per year, depending also on your family income. Applying early makes a huge difference as well. I would not have gotten anything anyway, but by the time I was admitted, the money was just gone. I discuss this frankly because I realize debt is a huge issue. I take my own debt quite seriously, and I would not have incurred it if I did not honestly feel that Fordham is worth the money. My prediction is that Fordham will give you at least a modest scholarship, which should ease the sticker shock of living in Manhattan. I'm hardly new to the city, and even I'm shocked sometimes by how much things cost. I have no regrets, though. The fact that I've had the chance to live here is enough.

Thanks for the reply! I am applying this week so I can fall under the new "Early Action" deadline. You are a wonderful representative of your school.

Oh, awesome. Good luck! You should hear back soon; probably sooner than most, given your excellent numbers.

I want to thank OS for this awesome thread. Also thanks for always being so friendly to everyone... your entries are always refreshing, especially compared to the douchebaggery that litters so many threads on TLS.

You're my hero.

leave NYC for the perfect job, but few of them want to.[/quote]

Yes you can give him my contact info if you want. It will certainly help us to talk with a few Deans about how they go about documenting where their graduates decide to go. I really think more schools should be doing this, so it would be good to know how long Fordham has been conducting surveys as part of their placement plan.

Hello all-

I'm in essentially the same boat as WhyBother?- I'm above the median numbers for full time (3.68, 169). My application is about ready to go, but I'm unsure about whether or not I should hold out for my LORs, which won't be available for another month, since they're not required. Any suggestions?

Also- OS, mad respect for all the work you've done on these forums... you really make me wish I was there!

Apply ASAP, so you can make the EA deadline (Nov 1st). You can send your LORs when you have them. It's not that you won't get in if you wait, but you don't want the money to be depleted. It definitely seems like EA people have first shot at it.

My application though LSAC is already selected as a regular decision, and I'm trying to find out if I can change it. Is the decision as to whether you will attend due any earlier, if I should I wait to see what the rest of my regular decision apps bring?