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 Post subject: FlipFlop. How is Hamline now TTTT & William Mitchell TTT ?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:44 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:52 pm
Archived Posts: 38
What happened? Hamline's peer score is 2.0 to William Mitchell's 1.9 Judge/Lawyer score 2.4 to William Mitchell's 2.3 25th LSAT is 152 to William Mitchell's 151 75th LSAT 158 to WM's 157 25th GPA 3.22 to WM's 3.15 and 75th GPA 3.7 to WM's 3.63. Hamline also boasts higher starting salaries at the 25th median and 75th percentiles. (75th percentile at 120k as opposed to 85k at WM) How is it possible that these two schools flip flopped in rankings? J/W because Hamline has offered me a substantial scholarship and William Mitchell nothing.. Was excited until the new rankings came out. Someone enlighten me, please! I despise USNWS.

156 3.34


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 Post subject: Re: FlipFlop. How is Hamline now TTTT & William Mitchell TTT ?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:49 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:34 am
Archived Posts: 855
tjperry wrote:
What happened? Hamline's peer score is 2.0 to William Mitchell's 1.9 Judge/Lawyer score 2.4 to William Mitchell's 2.3 25th LSAT is 152 to William Mitchell's 151 75th LSAT 158 to WM's 157 25th GPA 3.22 to WM's 3.15 and 75th GPA 3.7 to WM's 3.63. Hamline also boasts higher starting salaries at the 25th median and 75th percentiles. (75th percentile at 120k as opposed to 85k at WM) How is it possible that these two schools flip flopped in rankings? J/W because Hamline has offered me a substantial scholarship and William Mitchell nothing.. Was excited until the new rankings came out. Someone enlighten me, please! I despise USNWS.

156 3.34


Who cares? Go where you feel is best for you and where you believe you'll have the best shot at getting the law job you want. Both schools are super regional, so look at their placement stats for MN.


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 Post subject: Re: FlipFlop. How is Hamline now TTTT & William Mitchell TTT ?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:50 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:36 pm
Archived Posts: 7067
This is like trying to decide if you should stick your face in a pile of donkey shit or camel shit.


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 Post subject: Re: FlipFlop. How is Hamline now TTTT & William Mitchell TTT ?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:54 pm 

Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:52 pm
Archived Posts: 1680
LawandOrder wrote:
This is like trying to decide if you should stick your face in a pile of donkey shit or camel shit.


tyft

@OP: in all honesty, rankings are pretty arbitrary when you get into the third and fourth tiers (and arguably after T30ish or so), and schools ranked therein would likely see large fluctuations from year-to-year. if i were you, i wouldn't change my decision based on such a ranking change


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 Post subject: Re: FlipFlop. How is Hamline now TTTT & William Mitchell TTT ?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:55 pm 

Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:23 pm
Archived Posts: 1193
LawandOrder wrote:
This is like trying to decide if you should stick your face in a pile of donkey shit or camel shit.


Ignore this person. He has nothing better to do but post on TLS and dream of his first sexual encounter.


As for your question, go to Hamline. You were excited about going before, don't let this change your mind. It could just as easily change again next year. Best of luck.


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 Post subject: Re: FlipFlop. How is Hamline now TTTT & William Mitchell TTT ?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:00 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:36 pm
Archived Posts: 7067
h2ho wrote:
LawandOrder wrote:
This is like trying to decide if you should stick your face in a pile of donkey shit or camel shit.


Ignore this person. He has nothing better to do but post on TLS and dream of his first sexual encounter.


As for your question, go to Hamline. You were excited about going before, don't let this change your mind. It could just as easily change again next year. Best of luck.



It was my second!!!!! *Cries*


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 Post subject: Re: FlipFlop. How is Hamline now TTTT & William Mitchell TTT ?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:01 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:59 pm
Archived Posts: 5155
Vast Jewish conspiracy. All schools with ham in the name are falling in the rankings. FordHAM lost 3 spots.

How do I explain BrigHAM Young? Mormons trump Jews.


Seriously though, how are we supposed to figure out why some school is third tier and another is fourth? Look in USNWR, you can probably figure it out yourself. If you like Hamline more and despise USNWR then why do you care?


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 Post subject: Re: FlipFlop. How is Hamline now TTTT & William Mitchell TTT ?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:07 pm 
Minister of Defense

Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:48 pm
Archived Posts: 6556
In the Helmholtz rankings, Hamline is #138 and William Mitchell is #148. Wow! Both in the top 150 law schools in the entire freakin country!!! Holy C-C-C-Crap!

In all seriousness, both schools are extremely restricted to their location and a switch between T3 and T4 is USNWR means nothing.


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 Post subject: Re: FlipFlop. How is Hamline now TTTT & William Mitchell TTT ?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:09 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:52 pm
Archived Posts: 38
Cleareyes wrote:
Vast Jewish conspiracy. All schools with ham in the name are falling in the rankings. FordHAM lost 3 spots.

How do I explain BrigHAM Young? Mormons trump Jews.


Seriously though, how are we supposed to figure out why some school is third tier and another is fourth? Look in USNWR, you can probably figure it out yourself. If you like Hamline more and despise USNWR then why do you care?


Easily explained by a low self-esteem entirely determined by arbitrary national news media rankings of low-end law schools. I just don't get the flip flop...wanted to see if maybe I was missing something.


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 Post subject: Re: FlipFlop. How is Hamline now TTTT & William Mitchell TTT ?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:17 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:59 pm
Archived Posts: 5155
tjperry wrote:
Easily explained by a low self-esteem entirely determined by arbitrary national news media rankings of low-end law schools. I just don't get the flip flop...wanted to see if maybe I was missing something.


I wish my self-esteem were entirely determined by arbitrary national news media rankings of law schools. :cry:

Lucky bastard.

Anyway, T3 or T4 don't matter. Nobody outside their respective regions will have heard of Hamline or William Mitchell and nobody will care where they are at the bottom of the rankings. If you have seriously looked at the potential debt and your career prospects out of Hamline and you want to go there then go to Hamline and prosper. Going to William Mitchell, a school you don't seem to be very excited by, for more money would be a mistake. To Hamline with thee!


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 Post subject: Re: FlipFlop. How is Hamline now TTTT & William Mitchell TTT ?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:35 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:51 pm
Archived Posts: 680
A lot of the things you posted (25/75 LSAT; 25/75 GPA; salaries) have no effect on the ranking.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/educatio ... ology.html

Theodore P. Seto, Understanding the U.S. News Law School Rankings, 60 SMU L. Rev. 493 (2007).

EDIT: Oh yeah, don't forget the rankings are not a valid measure of school quality.


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 Post subject: Re: FlipFlop. How is Hamline now TTTT & William Mitchell TTT ?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:39 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:52 pm
Archived Posts: 38
ggocat wrote:
A lot of the things you posted (25/75 LSAT; 25/75 GPA; salaries) have no effect on the ranking.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/educatio ... ology.html

Theodore P. Seto, Understanding the U.S. News Law School Rankings, 60 SMU L. Rev. 493 (2007).

EDIT: Oh yeah, don't forget the rankings are not a valid measure of school quality.


Dumb. Seems like those are pretty important as to determining a school's overall quality.


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 Post subject: Re: FlipFlop. How is Hamline now TTTT & William Mitchell TTT ?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:56 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:47 pm
Archived Posts: 16
LawandOrder wrote:
This is like trying to decide if you should stick your face in a pile of donkey shit or camel shit.


Do you think Warren Burger would agree with this comment?


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 Post subject: Re: FlipFlop. How is Hamline now TTTT & William Mitchell TTT ?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:01 pm 

Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:00 am
Archived Posts: 801
tjperry wrote:
What happened? Hamline's peer score is 2.0 to William Mitchell's 1.9 Judge/Lawyer score 2.4 to William Mitchell's 2.3 25th LSAT is 152 to William Mitchell's 151 75th LSAT 158 to WM's 157 25th GPA 3.22 to WM's 3.15 and 75th GPA 3.7 to WM's 3.63. Hamline also boasts higher starting salaries at the 25th median and 75th percentiles. (75th percentile at 120k as opposed to 85k at WM) How is it possible that these two schools flip flopped in rankings? J/W because Hamline has offered me a substantial scholarship and William Mitchell nothing.. Was excited until the new rankings came out. Someone enlighten me, please! I despise USNWS.

156 3.34


Have you actually talked to a lawyer in the area? Mitchell is a much better quality school. Seriously.


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 Post subject: Re: FlipFlop. How is Hamline now TTTT & William Mitchell TTT ?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:03 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:34 am
Archived Posts: 855
JurisDoctor33 wrote:
LawandOrder wrote:
This is like trying to decide if you should stick your face in a pile of donkey shit or camel shit.


Do you think Warren Burger would agree with this comment?


Where was it ranked in 1931?


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 Post subject: Re: FlipFlop. How is Hamline now TTTT & William Mitchell TTT ?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:20 pm 

Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:49 am
Archived Posts: 174
Can we stop using "TTTT"? I propose (although no one will listen) that when distinguishing between tiers simply say "T1", "T2", "T3", "T4". TTT is still acceptable if you want to trash a school, but a T1-T4 school can be referred to as a "TTT" depending on your point of view.


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 Post subject: Re: FlipFlop. How is Hamline now TTTT & William Mitchell TTT ?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:24 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:36 pm
Archived Posts: 7067
katjust wrote:
Can we stop using "TTTT"? I propose (although no one will listen) that when distinguishing between tiers simply say "T1", "T2", "T3", "T4". TTT is still acceptable if you want to trash a school, but a T1-T4 school can be referred to as a "TTT" depending on your point of view.



That's why we have the T14/TTT dichotomy.


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 Post subject: Re: FlipFlop. How is Hamline now TTTT & William Mitchell TTT ?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:47 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:47 pm
Archived Posts: 16
hypermeganet wrote:
JurisDoctor33 wrote:
LawandOrder wrote:
This is like trying to decide if you should stick your face in a pile of donkey shit or camel shit.


Do you think Warren Burger would agree with this comment?


Where was it ranked in 1931?


Fair enough, I'll rephrase my question, do you think any of these people http://www.wmitchell.edu/news/articles/ ... +Minnesota would agree with this comment??


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 Post subject: Re: FlipFlop. How is Hamline now TTTT & William Mitchell TTT ?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:52 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 5:00 pm
Archived Posts: 425
The camel shit comment is dead on.


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 Post subject: Re: FlipFlop. How is Hamline now TTTT & William Mitchell TTT ?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:20 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:57 pm
Archived Posts: 38
USNWR is like a broken clock. It tells time correctly twice a day. The 2010 rankings happen to be one of those times, as William Mitchell is above Hamline.

William Mitchell has limited reach. Most graduates practice in Minnesota and Wisconsin. However, it's very well respected in Minnesota. It's like Wayne State in Michigan or Drake in Iowa--a good school that doesn't get as much credit as it deserves. (FWIW, Mitchell also has contingents of grads in Cali, Florida, NY, and D.C.). Anyway, the CW in Minnesota is like this:

1. UMN
2. William Mitchell
2.5. UST
4. Hamline

Regardless of what USNWR says, that's really how it is.

And let's not be so quick to judge about whether we're discussing camel shit or donkey shit. The CEO of the National Audobon Society got his JD at William Mitchell. Minnesota's Chief Justice got his JD from Mitchell. Minnesota's Attorney General got her JD from Mitchell. The CEO of Cancer Treatment Centers of America got his JD from Mitchell. These people seem to have done alright, despite the grotesqueness of their legal alma mater. If you need further education regarding William Mitchell, you can view my thread here:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=63188

Same goes for Hamline, to some extent. It's not HYS (and I think Mitchell is truly a better law school), but it's turned out successful people. This guy got his JD from Hamline, and he might be going to Congress:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0409/21777.html


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 Post subject: Re: FlipFlop. How is Hamline now TTTT & William Mitchell TTT ?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:28 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:34 am
Archived Posts: 855
MSP1 wrote:
USNWR is like a broken clock. It tells time correctly twice a day. The 2010 rankings happen to be one of those times, as William Mitchell is above Hamline.

William Mitchell has limited reach. Most graduates practice in Minnesota and Wisconsin. However, it's very well respected in Minnesota. It's like Wayne State in Michigan or Drake in Iowa--a good school that doesn't get as much credit as it deserves. (FWIW, Mitchell also has contingents of grads in Cali, Florida, NY, and D.C.). Anyway, the CW in Minnesota is like this:

1. UMN
2. William Mitchell
2.5. UST
4. Hamline

Regardless of what USNWR says, that's really how it is.

And let's not be so quick to judge about whether we're discussing camel shit or donkey shit. The CEO of the National Audobon Society got his JD at William Mitchell. Minnesota's Chief Justice got his JD from Mitchell. Minnesota's Attorney General got her JD from Mitchell. The CEO of Cancer Treatment Centers of America got his JD from Mitchell. These people seem to have done alright, despite the grotesqueness of their legal alma mater. If you need further education regarding William Mitchell, you can view my thread here:

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... =4&t=63188

Same goes for Hamline, to some extent. It's not HYS (and I think Mitchell is truly a better law school), but it's turned out successful people. This guy got his JD from Hamline, and he might be going to Congress:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0409/21777.html



You can pretty much go to every law school and find the few people from there that have done pretty well for themselves. I'm not sure that's a great indicator. The average salary for the average grad, along with % of grads employed by private practice + clerkships, is a much better indicator.


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 Post subject: Re: FlipFlop. How is Hamline now TTTT & William Mitchell TTT ?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:32 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:55 am
Archived Posts: 732
I work in the MN legal community and have 4 family members that are prominent members of the MN Legal Community (very prominent).

All of them said to either go to UMN or William Mitchell, hands down.

We are talking about judges/attorneys that interview tons of people for 1st year associates, clerkships, and interns. They all said that William Mitchell Grads and UMN Grads are comparable and prepared. They didn't say such nice things about Hamline and UST grads.


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 Post subject: Re: FlipFlop. How is Hamline now TTTT & William Mitchell TTT ?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:37 pm 

Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:24 pm
Archived Posts: 1593
MSP1 wrote:
USNWR is like a broken clock. It tells time correctly twice a day.
USNWR tells the time?

acr0504 wrote:
I work in the MN legal community and have 4 family members that are prominent members of the MN Legal Community (very prominent).

All of them said to either go to UMN or William Mitchell, hands down.

We are talking about judges/attorneys that interview tons of people for 1st year associates, clerkships, and interns. They all said that William Mitchell Grads and UMN Grads are comparable and prepared. They didn't say such nice things about Hamline and UST grads.
Did they distinguish between the two at all? Because I'd expect that Minnesota would have more pull.


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 Post subject: Re: FlipFlop. How is Hamline now TTTT & William Mitchell TTT ?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:39 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:57 pm
Archived Posts: 38
hypermeganet wrote:
MSP1 wrote:
USNWR is like a broken clock. It tells time correctly twice a day. The 2010 rankings happen to be one of those times, as William Mitchell is above Hamline.

William Mitchell has limited reach. Most graduates practice in Minnesota and Wisconsin. However, it's very well respected in Minnesota. It's like Wayne State in Michigan or Drake in Iowa--a good school that doesn't get as much credit as it deserves. (FWIW, Mitchell also has contingents of grads in Cali, Florida, NY, and D.C.). Anyway, the CW in Minnesota is like this:

1. UMN
2. William Mitchell
2.5. UST
4. Hamline

Regardless of what USNWR says, that's really how it is.

And let's not be so quick to judge about whether we're discussing camel shit or donkey shit. The CEO of the National Audobon Society got his JD at William Mitchell. Minnesota's Chief Justice got his JD from Mitchell. Minnesota's Attorney General got her JD from Mitchell. The CEO of Cancer Treatment Centers of America got his JD from Mitchell. These people seem to have done alright, despite the grotesqueness of their legal alma mater. If you need further education regarding William Mitchell, you can view my thread here:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=63188

Same goes for Hamline, to some extent. It's not HYS (and I think Mitchell is truly a better law school), but it's turned out successful people. This guy got his JD from Hamline, and he might be going to Congress:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0409/21777.html



You can pretty much go to every law school and find the few people from there that have done pretty well for themselves. I'm not sure that's a great indicator. The average salary for the average grad, along with % of grads employed by private practice + clerkships, is a much better indicator.


Three things.

1. These people I mentioned in my post were a random sampling, not the full complement of William Mitchell graduates that ever amounted to anything.
2. Is the percentage of graduates in private practice a better indicator because you consider private practice more prestigious than public sector work?
3. William Mitchell's average salary is about $70,000.


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 Post subject: Re: FlipFlop. How is Hamline now TTTT & William Mitchell TTT ?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:41 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:59 pm
Archived Posts: 5155
MSP1 wrote:

Three things.

1. These people I mentioned in my post were a random sampling, not the full complement of William Mitchell graduates that ever amounted to anything.
2. Is the percentage of graduates in private practice a better indicator because you consider private practice more prestigious than public sector work?
3. William Mitchell's average salary is about $70,000.


No.


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