Top-Law-Schools.comTLS
Home
Law School
Admissions
Law
Schools
Law
Students
TLS
Forums
 
Forum Archives Index     Forum Archives Search     Leave Archives and Visit Active TLS Forums


All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


 


Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 25 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Salary and Graduating @ the BOTTOM of your class in a T14 ?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:32 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:18 am
Archived Posts: 9
So, here is the scenario:

1) I go to Duke, or maybe Cornell, both t14. I graduate in the middle/lower end of the class, but definitely not at the top. Am I going to make $100,000? Are the big law firms still interested in me?

2) I'll throw in a loop. What if you graduate from some place like Notre Dame or Boston University, (just outside the t14, at like T20 or T24, nothing higher though) and I STILL graduate in the middle/bottom of the class, what are my job prospects in the big cities at the big law firms?

My goal is to make $$$$$$$. I know i'll be working A LOT of hours, but that is just me. I don't want family. No kids. I want to WORK. But I don't know if I can graduate in the top of my class at these IVY schools. Does the person who graduates LAST at DUKE still get good salary potential because of the school name??

help! :)


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Salary and Graduating @ the BOTTOM of your class in a T14 ?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:31 am 

Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:28 pm
Archived Posts: 120
I seriously doubt the person who graduates last has any kind of good job prospects because they've likely been on academic probation off and on and they probably have other problems too. There's always a couple basket cases at every school IMO. We already have someone in my class who has supposedly developed depression and has missed over 3 weeks of classes. He showed up yesterday to Torts and the professor grilled him all class long and I could tell he felt like a complete idiot. He'll probably be gone again today.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Salary and Graduating @ the BOTTOM of your class in a T14 ?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:18 am 

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 2:34 pm
Archived Posts: 68
M_Cool wrote:
I seriously doubt the person who graduates last has any kind of good job prospects because they've likely been on academic probation off and on and they probably have other problems too. There's always a couple basket cases at every school IMO. We already have someone in my class who has supposedly developed depression and has missed over 3 weeks of classes. He showed up yesterday to Torts and the professor grilled him all class long and I could tell he felt like a complete idiot. He'll probably be gone again today.


This is the kind of stuff that really pisses me off. Why would this guy take up a spot at one of the premier schools of law in the country, only to become "depressed". I would be more sympathetic if he at least showed up to class, but to ditch class shows no effort and is inexcusable.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Salary and Graduating @ the BOTTOM of your class in a T14 ?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:26 am 

Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 2:51 pm
Archived Posts: 19
i don't believe they do any type of a class rank at Notre Dame. although i'm sure if you have a 2.2 gpa they can get an idea where you graduated at, but the alumni network at notre dame is one of the best and most widespread out of the T14.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Salary and Graduating @ the BOTTOM of your class in a T14 ?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:39 am 

Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:54 pm
Archived Posts: 403
To the OP: Your prospects are likely still decent in the bottom half of a T-14, although there will probably be some red flags raised should you be in the bottom 10%, or whatever lowest measure there is, and certainly so if it's clear that you were actually dead last in your class. If I were an employer, I would even hesitate to take the very last person in the class at a top-3 school, just because it indicates that something's probably not quite right in their life. And on that subject...

M_Cool wrote:
We already have someone in my class who has supposedly developed depression and has missed over 3 weeks of classes. He showed up yesterday to Torts and the professor grilled him all class long and I could tell he felt like a complete idiot. He'll probably be gone again today.


BiglawAmbitions wrote:
This is the kind of stuff that really pisses me off. Why would this guy take up a spot at one of the premier schools of law in the country, only to become "depressed". I would be more sympathetic if he at least showed up to class, but to ditch class shows no effort and is inexcusable.


Pretty heartless, guys. What if he's actually got serious depression? Besides, that professor ought to be more than a little concerned about pushing the kid over the edge. And BiglawAmbitions--you might read up on mental illness, for your own edification. I'm no expert, but if you walk around thinking that depression is just the manifestation of lazy, selfish behavior traits, you may be in for a rude awakening when you express that view in the wrong company. A lot of people with loved ones who have had mental illness get very touchy on the subject (and, in my opinion, rightfully so).


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Salary and Graduating @ the BOTTOM of your class in a T14 ?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:49 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:31 pm
Archived Posts: 4210
BiglawAmbitions wrote:
Why would this guy take up a spot at one of the premier schools of law in the country, only to become "depressed".


First, depression is an illness. It's not a choice. Would you be pissed if someone accepted a spot at the T14 only to become "anemic" or "diabetic?"

BiglawAmbitions wrote:
I would be more sympathetic if he at least showed up to class, but to ditch class shows no effort and is inexcusable.


Depression manifests itself in a number of different ways - up to and including crippling insomnia, agoraphobia, paranoia and/or exhuastion. Let's see you go to class in that condition.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Salary and Graduating @ the BOTTOM of your class in a T14 ?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:16 pm 

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 2:34 pm
Archived Posts: 68
Given that I've completed two 7 month tours in Afghanistan, I guess I'm a little more harsh than I should be, as in that environment you have to perform rather you feel like it or not. I will also admit that I'm fairly ignorant on the subject of depression. The question that I do have is, if it is a legitimate illness for this student why wouldn't he verbalize it to the professor? Is he scared of character and fitness looking into his file?


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Salary and Graduating @ the BOTTOM of your class in a T14 ?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:35 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:31 pm
Archived Posts: 4210
BiglawAmbitions wrote:
Given that I've completed two 7 month tours in Afghanistan, I guess I'm a little more harsh than I should be, as in that environment you have to perform rather you feel like it or not.


That makes a lot of sense. I can see how that particular experience would lead to your perspective.

BiglawAmbitions wrote:
I will also admit that I'm fairly ignorant on the subject of depression. The question that I do have is, if it is a legitimate illness for this student why wouldn't he verbalize it to the professor? Is he scared of character and fitness looking into his file?


I totally agree that the student needs to be proactive in communicating with his professor, the health center, the administration, etc., but can also appreciate why he would be reluctant to do so. He may be concerned about character and fitness, under the impression that he can work through the problem on his own, afraid that he'll be forced to withdraw or any number of other factors. Stigma is still a big problem for many sufferers of mental illnesses - there's a perception that they can't be treated and that full recovery is impossible, which is seldom the case.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Salary and Graduating @ the BOTTOM of your class in a T14 ?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:07 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:18 am
Archived Posts: 9
OK, so let me clarify then:

Let's say you graduate in the middle of your class, not necessarily LAST. My point is to find out the job prospects for people graduating NOT in the top tier of a T14 school, as in to say they aren't in the law review. Can you still do comparable to the top students graduating from a t14 school monetarily?

To make it short: let's say you graduate number 100 out of 200 students- exactly in the middle- from DUKE? How are you going to do in terms of salary? You're still graduating from a t14 school, so you must get 6 figure offers. Right??

I guess I'm thinking of someone who goes to a school like Queens CUNY law who graduates in the middle/lower end of their class. By all means, they will not get recruited, or get a huge salary. BUT if you graduate in the middle of your class from a T14, your prospects must still be great....?


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Salary and Graduating @ the BOTTOM of your class in a T14 ?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:09 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:54 pm
Archived Posts: 403
I'm not the expert on this subject, but my impression from reading these boards and perusing websites like Vault.com is that a large number of grads from T-14 schools are hired by corporate law firms and earn a starting salary at "market rate," which is around $160,000. There are a variety of other considerations when accepting a job offer, such as potential for advancement, hours worked per week, etc., but it would seem that Yes, a middle-of-the-pack graduate from Duke Law may end up with a job that pays the same starting salary as a top-10% Duke Law grad, or even a graduate of a top-6 law school, etc. Other factors may not be equal, but starting salary seems to have a uniformity amongst top law firms.

I trust that someone will correct me if I am mistaken about the above.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Salary and Graduating @ the BOTTOM of your class in a T14 ?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:34 pm 

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 2:34 pm
Archived Posts: 68
The way it has been relayed to me is as long as a T14 student graduates in the top half of their class-- they will receive market value, which as penguinfiasco correctly pointed out, is around 160,000. Given the hierarchy of the T14 (tier 1 HYS tier 2 CNC tier 3 PBMV and tier 4 DNCG), I find it hard to believe that the "bottom feeders" at the top 6 do not receive market value.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Salary and Graduating @ the BOTTOM of your class in a T14 ?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:34 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:29 pm
Archived Posts: 66
Really depends on where in the top 14. At HYSCNC B's, a few b+'s,and a decent interview and you could get a V10 firm, and will get a Vault top 25 firm. I didn't get into anything between CCN and Duke so I can't really speak to the job prospects at those schools. Duke hired great, but my feeling was the middle could be iffy in bad years. By iffy I mean you might not get a top 50. YOU COULD, you just might not, or not want to. you'd still make 135-160 + bonus, just not at one of the most prestigious firms. Don't fret, the Top 6 kids will be join you in 2- 6 years.
And yes, everyone pays the same salary, 160 in NY. Thats not including bonus, where you can make and extra 15-100%.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Salary and Graduating @ the BOTTOM of your class in a T14 ?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:28 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:15 am
Archived Posts: 14365
uh duke isn't an "ivy"

also if you are graduating last at duke, there is no way you are graduating near the tip top of BU or BC anyway


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Salary and Graduating @ the BOTTOM of your class in a T14 ?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:01 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:18 am
Archived Posts: 9
underdawg wrote:
uh duke isn't an "ivy"

also if you are graduating last at duke, there is no way you are graduating near the tip top of BU or BC anyway


dude it would be helpful if...


you. read. every. single. post. before. responding.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Salary and Graduating @ the BOTTOM of your class in a T14 ?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:23 pm 

Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:32 pm
Archived Posts: 1385
boytwoboy wrote:
So, here is the scenario:

1) I go to Duke, or maybe Cornell, both t14. I graduate in the middle/lower end of the class, but definitely not at the top. Am I going to make $100,000? Are the big law firms still interested in me?

2) I'll throw in a loop. What if you graduate from some place like Notre Dame or Boston University, (just outside the t14, at like T20 or T24, nothing higher though) and I STILL graduate in the middle/bottom of the class, what are my job prospects in the big cities at the big law firms?

My goal is to make $$$$$$$. I know i'll be working A LOT of hours, but that is just me. I don't want family. No kids. I want to WORK. But I don't know if I can graduate in the top of my class at these IVY schools. Does the person who graduates LAST at DUKE still get good salary potential because of the school name??

help! :)


Duke, in particular, has been at the forefront of being transperant in their hiring success. They have posted a list showing where something like 98% of their grads went. (I might be wrong and it was the whole 100%). The results show that it is GOOD, every single person on there did well, imo. Vandy has also done this. I respect these schools a lot for being secure enough to publish the data. Vandy's data showed everyone did really well, too, if my memory serves me correctly.

BU below the median is probably pretty bad, in general. Individuals could do well coming out of there,though. If you look at the NLJ chart(link below) and add clerkships plus employment at NLJ 250's plus whatever else you might want to add to figure out who COULD have gone BIGLAW, then you might get a figure between 30 or 40% for schools in BU's tier. Just beware when looking at that figure, that 30% includes patent attornies, urms, ppl with sick resumes from prior WE, amazingly charasmatic ppl, hot chicks(xoxo contribution, I believe it deserves consideration) in addition to your "regular" law students. So, if the number is 40%, you probably need at least top 25%. But,then I might be wrong, I'm an 0L.

Also, fyi, please don't say things like "I'm in for the money, I want to make money, money,money". It's distasteful and might make people hesitate in helping you. You want prestige and a challenge, its like going into i-banking. hth.

http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Salary and Graduating @ the BOTTOM of your class in a T14 ?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:25 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:15 am
Archived Posts: 14365
boytwoboy wrote:
underdawg wrote:
uh duke isn't an "ivy"

also if you are graduating last at duke, there is no way you are graduating near the tip top of BU or BC anyway


dude it would be helpful if...


you. read. every. single. post. before. responding.

why don't you change your fucking title then?

also duke still isn't an "ivy". your talk of ivy law schools and $$$ make it very likely you are a douche

HTH


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Salary and Graduating @ the BOTTOM of your class in a T14 ?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:30 pm 

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 2:34 pm
Archived Posts: 68
underdawg wrote:
uh duke isn't an "ivy"

also if you are graduating last at duke, there is no way you are graduating near the tip top of BU or BC anyway


No Duke is not technically one of the eight ivies, but on an undergraduate level I would say graduates of Duke, Stanford, MIT, Chicago, Amherst, Williams, and Swarthmore have just as good if not better job prospects than students at all the ivies except HYP, Columbia and maybe Penn (would depend on the major).


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Salary and Graduating @ the BOTTOM of your class in a T14 ?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:44 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:15 am
Archived Posts: 14365
so?


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Salary and Graduating @ the BOTTOM of your class in a T14 ?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:16 pm 

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:10 am
Archived Posts: 165
boytwoboy wrote:
So, here is the scenario:

1) I go to Duke, or maybe Cornell, both t14. I graduate in the middle/lower end of the class, but definitely not at the top. Am I going to make $100,000? Are the big law firms still interested in me?

2) I'll throw in a loop. What if you graduate from some place like Notre Dame or Boston University, (just outside the t14, at like T20 or T24, nothing higher though) and I STILL graduate in the middle/bottom of the class, what are my job prospects in the big cities at the big law firms?

My goal is to make $$$$$$$. I know i'll be working A LOT of hours, but that is just me. I don't want family. No kids. I want to WORK. But I don't know if I can graduate in the top of my class at these IVY schools. Does the person who graduates LAST at DUKE still get good salary potential because of the school name??

help! :)

if you don't think you can graduate at the top, why even go to these IVY schools?....


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Salary and Graduating @ the BOTTOM of your class in a T14 ?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:20 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:12 pm
Archived Posts: 7299
FuturehoyaLawya wrote:
boytwoboy wrote:
So, here is the scenario:

1) I go to Duke, or maybe Cornell, both t14. I graduate in the middle/lower end of the class, but definitely not at the top. Am I going to make $100,000? Are the big law firms still interested in me?

2) I'll throw in a loop. What if you graduate from some place like Notre Dame or Boston University, (just outside the t14, at like T20 or T24, nothing higher though) and I STILL graduate in the middle/bottom of the class, what are my job prospects in the big cities at the big law firms?

My goal is to make $$$$$$$. I know i'll be working A LOT of hours, but that is just me. I don't want family. No kids. I want to WORK. But I don't know if I can graduate in the top of my class at these IVY schools. Does the person who graduates LAST at DUKE still get good salary potential because of the school name??

help! :)

if you don't think you can graduate at the top, why even go to these IVY schools?....

Yah, seriously. Why are you even still alive?


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Salary and Graduating @ the BOTTOM of your class in a T14 ?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:11 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:23 pm
Archived Posts: 991
Location: On a mountain of skulls, in the castle of pain, I sit on a throne of blood.
If you have poor marks at Duke, you're probably still in contention for a lot of good jobs in a normal market. A lot more will depend on prior experience and your personality, and it will probably be a much more difficult application cycle, but you're likely less screwed than someone at or below the median at a T30.

In this market, I have no idea how people with poor grades will end up.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Salary and Graduating @ the BOTTOM of your class in a T14 ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:01 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:18 am
Archived Posts: 9
Thanks for the mature responses. As for the others? Ugh must be bitter about something.... maybe got rejected from Duke? Maybe a small cock? Either one will suffice for that attitude.

I'm pretty sure I'll be fine at Duke. I have a 3.8 from Vassar and I scored 173 on my LSAT. I'm just afraid to go to an IVY league like cornell or one similar, like Duke. I'm nervous I won't be in the TOP of my class.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Salary and Graduating @ the BOTTOM of your class in a T14 ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:47 am 

Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:54 pm
Archived Posts: 403
The competitiveness of law school has, over time, been shifted from the classroom to the admissions process. In other words, it has become harder to not succeed once admitted to a T14 law school, but it is also harder, now, to gain admission. Or so I have read. Get into Duke; you may not end up at the top of the class, but you'll be fine anyway with the Duke Law degree in hand.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Salary and Graduating @ the BOTTOM of your class in a T14 ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:47 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:51 pm
Archived Posts: 837
penguinfiasco wrote:
The competitiveness of law school has, over time, been shifted from the classroom to the admissions process. In other words, it has become harder to not succeed once admitted to a T14 law school, but it is also harder, now, to gain admission. Or so I have read. Get into Duke; you may not end up at the top of the class, but you'll be fine anyway with the Duke Law degree in hand.


thank god for the lsat. 3 hours turning into hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Salary and Graduating @ the BOTTOM of your class in a T14 ?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:38 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:28 am
Archived Posts: 73
boytwoboy wrote:
I'm pretty sure I'll be fine at Duke. I have a 3.8 from Vassar and I scored 173 on my LSAT. I'm just afraid to go to an IVY league like cornell or one similar, like Duke. I'm nervous I won't be in the TOP of my class.

I have a strong feeling that A) You won't be at the bottom of your class (I know some who are, particularly at cornizzle, and they did not get 3.8s from good schools or 173s on the LSAT. B) Even if you are, you will make plenty of money, though let's not be vulgar about it.

PS Don't go to Cornell if you have any insecurities about your abilities... people there are crazy as balls and will drag you down into a morass of misery and inadequacy.


Top
  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 25 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]






copyright 2003-2010 top-law-schools.com • all rights reserved • powered by phpBBContact TLS